Not with me, I hope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay...here's a recap...

I wrote out a fresh listen and repeat for her statements...and queried you on what she actually stated versus what you assumed. I pointed out you DJ'd yourself with the "mere presence" comment.

Try writing some after-the-fact things you could have said to her statements which would give you a feeling of pride from your respectful perspective AND perception.

Maybe God doesn't want me to do those make-believe responses, I dunno. It was a good post, I promise. I thought so. Dang it--not good enough to copy before I hit continue, huh?

Then I asked you to rewrite your second post as sharing...what you're learning and how you feel...that your deep, nearly automatic desire to control through teaching, lecturing, demanding...comes from your huge fear. Of being abandoned, judged lacking, not good enough...erased.

And I asked you to not allow her to repeat many times, when she states stuff...like her not loving you anymore...not feeling love? Once is enough. You listen and repeat and when she says it again...say, "I heard you. Please don't say this again."

And for you to remember that Shakespeare nailed that...we either repeat because we don't feel heard or understood...or we are attempting to convince ourselves.

Ask for help from her...and others...you're committed, stop judging your progress...remember, you measure yourself, you'll measure her. You judge her, you're gonna judge yourself...and from the sound of it, harshly.

What do you need for you?

LA

LA,

I didn't have a proper Internet connection all week due to ours being moved to WWs apartment (when we moved to this house we kept her Internet and phone number because she has her own business). I'm still waiting for my own, using my neighbours unsecured wireless network for now.

Regarding the 'mere presence' statement, WW did actually say that she felt more depressed when I was around. I don't think much of what I wrote was assumed.

"Try writing some after-the-fact things you could have said to her statements which would give you a feeling of pride from your respectful perspective AND perception."

Umm. No idea about this. I'm intelligent but I have no idea how to do this... Can you help me with that? I honestly don't know. I can't answer those questions for her ("why would I want to try again with you?"). You mean to reverse it and share with her why I want to try again with her? Please give me some hints and I'll try it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Then I asked you to rewrite your second post as sharing...what you're learning and how you feel...that your deep, nearly automatic desire to control through teaching, lecturing, demanding...comes from your huge fear. Of being abandoned, judged lacking, not good enough...erased."

Well, I'm glad you know where theses desires come from :-P (not meant sarcastically). I'm nowhere near that kind of understanding. I recognize the fear of abandonment, didn't realize the others yet.

I like this Shakespeare perception <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> WW mentioned something similar, the other way around, when she read back a letter she wrote to me in january in which she stated many times that she did still love me. How ironic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

During my intake the counselor did suggest I try to come up with SMART targets, so that does mean measuring progress too. I know I should be too harsh on myself or others.

"What do you need for you?"

I don't understand the question... Do you mean to ask what I can do for myself to meet my needs?

Now for an update on actual events:

I called my sister to let her know my new phone number. We had a long conversation about my situation. She recognized many things similar to her sitch, 3 years ago. I already told her about the textbookness of WSs and affairs in general. Her XH is still very foggy. He had an affair with their babysitter (how cliche) who was 16(!) at the time. He was 30 at the time. They're sort of living together although she is now studying somewhere else. He said all the standard WS things ("I never loved you. I never should have married you.") which hurt her very much. He still feels that way (hence still foggy). My sister did a lot of appeasing at the time which obviously didn't help. My situation brings back a lot of bad memories for her, but sharing my perspective on things helps a lot. She's so proud of me that I exposed the affair so soon. I didn't get to know about it until after her second D-day, 6 months later. Of course it had continued all this time (she even allowed her to remain their babysitter, ouch).

I also called my parents about the new phone number. My mom is worried about me. She keeps asking whether I eat well, whether I take good care of me and the house. She refers back to my student days. Duh... I almost feel like telling her thath I'm old enough to take care of myself now.

Last night I was WWs apartment to help with installing the phone and Internet stuff. First we had a nice meal (a salad with lots of lovely things). After the installation work we watched a recorded TV series. She cuddled up to me on the couch, I liked that a lot. That meant a lot to me. After the series I went home. Not much sharing done, but it still felt good, safe.

This morning I thanked her for the lovely evening, and she replied that she'd enjoyed it as well.

Anyway. Hope you can give me some pointers on the sharing / feelings bit. I think I can make much progress if I understand how that works a little bettter.

Bump for LA.

Just had a long chat on MSN with WW. I'm repeating it here, because I'd like feedback on how I could have handled things better... Sorry it is this long, but I didn't want to leave things out because I don't trust my own filter.

It started out OK, with WW asking me if I thought I could ever show her my apreciation for her (the way she looks, that I liked the food, etc.). So I said, yes, I now know that is important to you and I want to meet your needs. It will take some time for it to become a habit and it will feel awkward at first, but given some time it will come naturally.

Then I apologized for not showing her my apreciation for her in the past. That I just labeled her expressing these needs as "nagging" and ignored them.

I told her I was very sorry for emotionally neglecting her.

She then said "I don't know if I can continue with you, because I've been hurt for so long... I hurt you very much in the end... and I'm affraid we will never get over it and keep resenting eachother for it."

So I told her that resentment can indeed be a real problem.

She then said "I don't want to constantly be affraid to get hurt, and I'd like to be able to just talk to a guy without you getting suspicious."

I told her I was 100% committed to never being the cause of her unhappiness again. I told her it would be fine to talk to a guy, as long as she was aware of potential risks, and not allowing someone else to meet important emotional needs.

I told her the affair had been a huge wake-up call for me, and that reading about relationships has made me realize how much I had hurt her.

She told me she knew I was aware of it now, but that a lot of harm has already been done. She also regrets it took the affair for me to see this. That she'd rather seen that the whole situation never got to this.

So I asked her if she thought too much harm had been done.

She said "I'm affraid so... I didn't leave for nothing. And of course I do care. I do care a lot about you. I'm not letting that go just like that. It's not easy like this."

I said I firmly believed that there is no such thing as too much harm done.

She then called her self a "muts" (sorry, don't know an english word for that) for trying to talk it right.

I asked her what she meant. She said "for having a strong opinion on this situation. It's not like me to say that it may be too late to fix things."

I then said "So why say it? You're right of course, but there's still a lot we can do.".

Hey... I just noticed that I betrayed my own belief by saying she was right that it may be too late to fix things... Argh.

Anyway, she replied "Because I do feel that way. But one way or the other I never allow myself to say something that's not nice."

I said "Love must be tough sometimes. Perhaps I would have woken up sooner. But that's about the past again, I'd like to think about the future."

I said "If we can forgive eachother that would be a huge step in my opinion. It makes it possible to "leave the past behind" and stops resentment. Well, that's how I see it."

She said "But after all these years I need peace, orderlyness and love. I'm emotionally exhausted. I don't have the strength to fight every day."

I asked "Do you think it will be easier when you're alone? I want to support you, I want to be your rock."

She said "But I can't just give myself to you. And when I'm alone I am in control... at least you can't hurt me anymore."

I said "I don't want to hurt you anymore, and I am committed to never doing that again. I want to follow the rule of protection, and everything that goes with it."

She said "I know, but you're still hurting me... not today, not yesterday, but you did since you made that commitment."

I said "I know, I'm not perfect."

She said "I'm glad you're not, me neither. I didn't expect that of you either."

I said "But don't you think the intention is important as well? The work to make it happen?"

She said "Yes, but if it still hurts in reality it's not much good. Do you understand I am exhausted?"

I said "At least you can now tell me that I hurt you without being punished for telling me. What do you mean by exhausted?"

She said "When are you going to punish me for that again then?"

I didn't understand this question. I said "I will never punish you again. That is disrespectful, I am respectful."

She said "exhausted = I can't handle much more..."

I said "You can handle more than you think. People are very strong."

She said "Oh, I know I can handle a lot. I have handled many bad things."

I said "Besides, you did finally take that step you felt you had to take. Isn't that good?" (referring to moving out).

She said "I know where my boundaries lie. This one has almost been reached... I'll survive, but that's about it. There's nothing extra. And it's been like that for a while... that I'll survive."

I said "But there are so many people who love you... My family loves you."

She said "Yes, I won't kill myself or something. But I don't have the energy to enjoy anything... I do what I have to do and that's it. I'm not feeling happy about it."

I said "There's not much to be happy about at the moment, is there?" Hmm. Not a very positive comment, is it?

She said "I don't know if your family loves me."

I said "Well, I do."

She said "Your sister does, I think."

I said "I'm sure the rest loves you too. I'm sure they want to forgive you."

She said "I'm not thinking about that at all now."

I asked "Will you forgive me?"

She said "Yes, I think I have for the most part... I can't be resentful. Dealing with it and wanting to continue with you are different things."

I asked "Why wouldn't you want to continue with me?"

She said "Because I don't want us to bring this stuff with us all the time... that this subject keeps coming up. And don't have enough faith in it at the moment."

I said "I understand your first point, I don't want that either. But we do need to adjust our lives to it."

She said "I have a problem with the way it needs to be adjusted."

I said "The second point isn't so much "wanting" in my opinion, it's a question of motivation. The way to adjust is open for discussion. You have a lot to say about that."

She said "That's what you keep saying, but I don't get that feeling at all. I also don't have the energy to discuss it with you."

I said "We still have to discuss it if you want to continue with me."

She said "I don't like discussing with you. I stop after half a sentence because I don't feel like all that crap."

I said "That's because I'm not safe to discuss with. I'm working on that."

She said "No, discussing is still not safe with you. I don't like discussions anyway... I don't like discussing things. Talking is fine, but I want to be allowed to keep my own opinion."

I said "You always entitled to your own opninion, but you should remain open to someone elses opinion." Ouch. Lecturing. Instead I could have mentioned my ongoing effort to live by this belief myself...

She said "and if I can't convey my opinion, even though I felt I have tried hard, then so be it."

I said "Yes, you can leave the subject."

She said "Yes, but can you?"

I said "That's something I have to learn. But some subjects can't be left. Some things need to be decided upon."

She said "Yes... but what if I really don't want to continue with you? You'll never accept that."

I said "Again... what wouldn't you want that? What part of having a great marriage don't you like?"

She said "You see! I don't mean to sound nasty, but this is something you do all the time. And I still feel you're trying to drive me into a corner."

I said "About this subject? You bet I don't accept that."

She said "The point is, at the moment I feel like I'd like to have a great marriage, perhaps just not with you."

I said "That's wishful thinking. A happy marriage takes hard work."

She said "See! Another nice remark from you. Of course it takes hard work."

I said "Well then. Why not with me?"

She said "It has to be with a person that I would want to do that with. Because so much is broken between us."

I said "A lot has been broken, but there was a lot of good as well."

She said "Yes, there was."

I said "You know things can be great between us. Why throw that all away?"

She said "It was never great... we had a lot of good times."

I said "Well, I think we were great together for some time."

She said "I re-read a diary I kept. I quite regularly wrote that I didn't like the way it was going and that I wanted to leave, but I didn't dare or hoped for better days."

I gave some examples of good things I remembered.

I said "You keep looking at negative things in the past. I want to move forward."

She said "Yes, there were a lot of negative things."

I said "I know, I am sorry. I'm working on never letting that happen again."

She said "I still remember the good things... most of them. I know. But I still suffer the consequences (of the bad things) daily. I don't want to talk about them either. But I do notice with everything I do that I'm influenced by them."

She said "I'm affraid to share my feelings with you. Sometimes I want to come closer to you, but I'm affraid you'll use it against me. Sometimes I want to take my distance and then I'm affraid I'll get an angry reaction from you. I'm constantly affraid that you'll come up with something to cross me again."

I said "I don't do that anymore."

She said "I'm sorry... I'd like to believe you and believe you mean it, but I don't feel it that way."

I said "So kick that feeling to the curb. It's no good."

She said "I'm glad you're dismissing my feelings again."

I said "You think I'm dismissing your feelings?"

She said "Yes... apparently they don't matter... rubbish, get rid of them."

I said "That's not what I said... I meant it as advice. Is the feeling any good to you? I'm asking for forgiveness, and I want to do anything to make it up."

I said "What good is that feeling? You can accept it. You can say "I don't want this" and put it away in its corner."

She said "Yes, and I will give it a place. I gave the crap with XBF a place too, but it's still good that I didn't continue with him."

I said "He never truely repented and made lasting changes."

I said "I think we've gotten a lot further than you ever did with XBF."

She said "Yes, but what I meant to say is that it's not always bad to quit."

I said "I don't know. Not until you've exhausted all posibilities."

She said "I think I have."

I said "I know you feel you have already done that. But I haven't, right?"

She said "No, you haven't. But it feels like 'too little too late' for me."

I said "It's only too late if you choose for it to be too late."

She said "Well, perhaps I have chosen that then."

I said "I don't see that. I don't see that choice."

She said "No... still thinking about it. Have to be sure."

I said "Who are you asking for advice?"

She said "Several people."

I asked "Can I talk to those people too?"

She said "I'd rather you didn't. But I'm mostly thinking myself. My feeling has always told me it will be OK... that I should try my best... my mind tells me that I should leave you... I'm still checking what my feeling can do to change that... my eternal positive feelings that is."

I said "Strange. I would expect your feelings to tell you to get out and your mind to tell you you should work on it." Ouch...

She said "I also have a feeling that warns me about you, yes. And my mind tells me I've given everything already."

I said "Maybe it helps that I'm cooperating this time?"

She said "Like I said, it's a little late for me. My feeling tells me you have had enough chances."

I said "I'm still asking for another chance."

She said "Yes... but I'm not sure if I can give you one."

I said "You're in control of that, right?"

She said "What are you trying to do?"

I said "What part of having a great marriage doesn't appeal to you?"

She said "That I don't believe in it with you."

I said "That doesn't answer my question, does it?"

She said "I'd love a great marriage, just not with you. I think. I don't see it getting great with you. I'm giving that some time now... perhaps I'll change my mind."

I said "I don't feel taken seriously."

She said "Me neither. Part of the problem. I do believe you're trying your best. But I don't think it's the right way. Not in a way that would help me."

I said "So tell me what you think is great. Tell me what would help you. Help me understand."

She remained quiet after that. I said "I feel sad."

MSN stopped working at this point... after 5 minutes it came back up.

She said "I feel sad too. I think it went wrong right after you found out about me and OM. You searched the Internet by yourself (fits you) in search of a solution. That's how I see it anyway... I don't mean to say you mean it like that."

I said "Wait. I don't feel like evaluating everything I did then. I want to look at the future, not the past. I did what I had to do at the time. I spoke to several people about my course of action and they all agreed with me."

She said "The problem is you act and think so differently from what I believe in, I think it already goes wrong there. Well, you'll have to continue with those people then. You don't even want to know how I see things and how I think it could have been handled better... you won't even let me finish. You have no idea what I wanted to say. So never mind."

I said "No, it's about the past, and about my actions. I want to know what I can do NOW to make things better for you."

She said "Listening to me would be a start."

I said "That's fine, but I do want you to respect my choices. Just like you want me to respect yours. I want to consider you in everthing I do. But at that time you weren't making choices I could respect."

She said "OK, I'm going to bed."

I said "Why end this conversation like this?"

She said "Because you won't let me say what I want, even though I think it can be of value. So I'm done. You are judging me."

I said "How am I judging you?"

She said "I'm done. I'm going to sleep.

I said "We can't leave it at this..."

She said "No, that's what I thought when you interrupted me. I wanted to say something completely different than you think I did. I think."

I said "OK, that could be. I'm sorry I interrupted you."

She said "You should have thought of that before."

I said "I just didn't want some big rant about how I could have done things differently."

She said "I just wanted to show you by a real example of how I think we should communicate."

I said "So please tell me. What use is it to punish me? I want to learn from it."

She said "No, I don't remember what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. Anyway, I'm going to bed."

I said "I feel dissappointed. I think the conversation started out positive."

She said "I agree."

I said "But it got more and more negative."

She said "I thought long about how to phrase it, now the atmosphere is gone and I've lost my story. So I'm calling it quits. Good night, talk to you tomorrow."

I wished her good night as well. I still feel very bad about the way this went.

Please, give me some feedback on where I DJ-ed or otherwise could have injected some respect and perspective.

Sorry 'bout the delay myself, LB...my own lack of being on MB lately.

From 8/14 post:
"I haven't been doing a very good job protecting W from me, because she says I am still controlling. Plus I teach and lecture."

Remember, she can believe you are still controlling and you may not be. Respect her perspective...have and know your own.

Yes, teaching/lecturing/educating IS disrespectful (and can easily be felt as controlling). Get to know the difference between sharing and LBing...sharing uses "I" statements (I feel, I believe, I think...etc.); LBing tells others how to live, be and what to feel.

When you feel the urge to make her see whatever your way, tell yourself that you are safe and secure in your own opinion...does not have to be the same to be safe. Stop thinking that getting her to believe what you do will save your marriage...her choosing to recommit to the marriage is--not believing the same things, 'k? There's a difference.

"Looking back, she is right." - ANY TIME you can own how you used to perceive and now perceive it differently, OWN it outloud, tell her she was correct and how grateful you are that she spoke and you heard...this reinforces to yourself that she is not the enemy of your heart...where pain comes from...her truth can also be your truth, at times, no blame...being of aid.

Gratitude, expressing appreciation...can feel like a form of admiration...meeting an EN from simply expressing your genuine gratitude...because you are, not to meet the EN.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This would go a long way to her keeping an LB journal on you...support and enforce...hey, this might hurt a bit, but it is healthy for YOU and you're WORTH it. You are, LB!!! Remember that. This is you about you...and YOUR desire to save your marriage...get to that thriving, loving life place as full partners, best friends, safest places and deep trust...I promise you, worth a thousand stings and cuts, as long as you know you're doing this for you...not to manipulate someone else into saying, doing, believing, feeling or thinking what you want them to--that payoff is so meager compared to what I'm talking about.



"Please give me some hints and I'll try it"

That's what I'm here for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some imaginary examples from your 8/18 post:

"Regarding the 'mere presence' statement, WW did actually say that she felt more depressed when I was around. I don't think much of what I wrote was assumed."

I want you to hone in on adjectives here..."mere" presence is where that DJ is...not presence. Can you see it in the adjective? As if presence were a small thing...not huge, as it is for humans. Our presence vibrates, communicates a lot...willingness to be present, intent fulfillment--we don't go where we don't want to be...just where we want to be MORE than not being there...think about it. Her problem with your presence is HER problem...yours represents your goal made manifest...respect her opinion..."I hear that my presence, even without words, has an effect on you. Good to know."

When she confirms after clarifying, say, "Good to know." If she clarifies, then reconfirm you heard her better the second time...

Umm. No idea about this. I'm intelligent"

No question...listen and repeat takes you choosing a new perspective...1) you didn't know you didn't listen...you thought you were, now know you weren't; 2) that filter you know really well that we all have is NOT simple to push aside (neigh impossible); 3) this is your act of intent...purely to really hear what is being said, to comprehend and understand (both more difficult than you previously thought), and that takes her patience with you repeating for confirmation and clarification...like an act of kindness, because hearing and listening are vastly different things.

"but I have no idea how to do this..."

I hear you are more response-based...automatically responding to what isn't yours...her thoughts, feelings and beliefs, rather than confirming them (validating and understanding them--ACCEPTING them as hers).

She says "why would I want to try again with you?"

"I hear you don't know why you would want to try again with me, is that correct?"

Do not ANSWER what is hers to know and answer...her stuff is hers...

"You mean to reverse it and share with her why I want to try again with her?"

No...she's not concerned with why YOU want to try again with her...she is concerned with her own desire, not yours. Stay focused and truly listen.

"Well, I'm glad you know where theses desires come from :-P (not meant sarcastically)."

These were offers, not certainties...thought I'd give you the diving board list to give you a jumping off point...you got abandonment...that's no shallow thing...detail to yourself. Worth it, I promise.

"I'm nowhere near that kind of understanding." You're closer than you think.

"What do you need for you?"

"I don't understand the question... Do you mean to ask what I can do for myself to meet my needs?"

Yes. Exactly.

Great to know you have your sister as your backup...and yes, I believe what you're experiencing, by sharing, asking for support, understanding, others have a chance to grow, too...learn great stuff and be supported in return.

You're hearing your mother mother you...this is good because she isn't saying you are incapable at all...she is saying SHE is...she wants to take you out of your own pain, circumstances, and protect you. Know this is her language of love, not disrespect or judgment...and know you HEAR judgment when others ask you what you're doing for yourself...you hear it as mothering. Good to know.

I know you're doing great with the RC (recreational companionship) time...that cuddling, acts of service, of being present...know you excel at that and your statement of gratitude WAS stating your stuff to her the next day.

Give yourself those kudos because they are real...and they are about YOU being real. Write down all the emotional words you know...get a list going...and do an emotional check...see what you're feeling, periodically, throughout the day...if you have more than five words, you're doing really well...the more you have, the better you'll be able to express them to her and to yourself.

Now to the nuts and bolts of your last post:

"It started out OK"

Stop right there. Heehee. Practice saying opinions as opinions..."I thought it started out OK"...and I remember we aren't speaking direct to English here, but there must be a Dutch equivalent...not these exact words, notice the intent...owning your opinion and avoiding stating things as fact...when they are not. Actions are fact. This helps train our brains for sorting reality from fantasy.

"with WW asking me if I thought I could ever show her my apreciation for her (the way she looks, that I liked the food, etc.). So I said, yes, I now know that is important to you and I want to meet your needs. It will take some time for it to become a habit and it will feel awkward at first, but given some time it will come naturally."

What you didn't tell her is why it is awkward for you; how much you desire to express how much you HAVE appreciated her inside, without stating. My H went through this...he has a fear of "tooting his own horn"...meaning that bragging and acknowledging were the same thing. They aren't. If we're proud of ourselves, state it. If we're grateful (as you have already indicated many times in your posts), state it. That's sharing ourselves...and the lines can blur between tooting our own horn and tooting someone else's...other slang is "not getting a big head" by paying compliments...these honesty stoppers come from childhood...they aren't part of our adult world where we choose our beliefs...they were taken as gospel early on...warned direly against having pride or giving flattery...retrain your brain to be HONEST with your thoughts...and your gratitude, appreciation, admiration will flow.

Good to commit to doing something you weren't doing before...BETTER to know WHY you didn't.

"She then said "I don't know if I can continue with you, because I've been hurt for so long... I hurt you very much in the end... and I'm affraid we will never get over it and keep resenting eachother for it."

Here is the listen and repeat tip: "You don't know if you can continue with me because you've felt pain for a long time. You recognize you hurt me very much in the end and you fear you won't be able to get over it, you fear I won't get over it; that you won't choose to stop resenting my actions of the past."

You leave out the "we" of it...

What you did was:
"So I told her that resentment can indeed be a real problem." You narrowed what you said...you left out what you heard about fear. Not bad, though, because you didn't contradict; however you impersonalized. Made resentment into a thing, separate from you both, like something universal. It's personal, isn't it? We manufacture it within ourselves, hold and build it up, by choices we make.

"She then said "I don't want to constantly be affraid to get hurt, and I'd like to be able to just talk to a guy without you getting suspicious."

"You fear being hurt in the future and fear my jealousy or insecurity, is that correct?"

What you said:
"I told her I was 100% committed to never being the cause of her unhappiness again. I told her it would be fine to talk to a guy, as long as she was aware of potential risks, and not allowing someone else to meet important emotional needs."

You didn't listen and repeat...you listened and attempted to fix. Can you see the difference? The first sentence is great--for an O&H drive-by sometime later. You are 100% committed to the rule of protection...that's your truth. Not said to refute or sooth her fear...that's not validating it. Take this ground-level, to really hear and acknowledge what she says...and then in the second sentence, you are addressing not her fear but her possible actions...separate what she's saying in the present, what she's feeling from you CURING it in anyway. Her fear is her fear...it's the future, not the present. Stay present.

I think you can see how you did this in what followed:
"I told her the affair had been a huge wake-up call for me, and that reading about relationships has made me realize how much I had hurt her."

I thought you'd already told her this...were you just re-stating to sooth or manage her fear of pain? Not your job yet. Not until she's recommitted to the marriage and you both begin working together...right now, truly hearing her is key. You can't make this all better, LB...part of that disrespect, so subtle and tricky, is that the more YOU fix HER, the more you disrespect her.

Her fears are hers. They are valid because they are hers. You can't cure anyone else, can you? She addresses her own stuff. Getting this set first, showing her power, her choices through listening not refuting or soothing, is where we begin. Later, as a union, we communicate so well, are safe from disrespecting and disrespect, that we address these fears together. Ironically, we have to get separate to come together as two wholes...not one solving the other...completing the other...we want to complement one another and acknowledge we're already complete and capable.

"She told me she knew I was aware of it now, but that a lot of harm has already been done. She also regrets it took the affair for me to see this. That she'd rather seen that the whole situation never got to this."

"I hear you believe a lot of harm has already been done and regret I only woke up when I was the one in unbelievable pain."

(Listen and repeat may sound boring...it isn't...clarity comes, trains your own brain...lots of great side effects as well) Internally, know that wishful child statement...when adults wish situations to be different, they are closer to their inner child than their adult thinking. Often, our emotions take us that way. Another reason to listen and repeat rather than argue or refute--adult to child--or child to child. And why the urge to soothe, cure...

"So I asked her if she thought too much harm had been done."

Why would you ask her that? She's fearing too much harm...you want to know if she definitive believes too much harm had been done? Would this be you really listening to her or addressing what you fear most?

"She said "I'm affraid so... I didn't leave for nothing. And of course I do care. I do care a lot about you. I'm not letting that go just like that. It's not easy like this."

"You didn't leave for nothing and you do care a lot about me. You are not letting our marriage go easily and right now, the situation isn't easy like this, either, is that correct?"

You said:
"I said I firmly believed that there is no such thing as too much harm done." That's your O&H...and coming after her statement instead of listening, sounds like refuting to me. Or rather, stating you believe differently, which is equally valid...I'm questioning the timing...you are used to have these "exchanges"...that would be her stating her stuff and you stating your own...somehow, I don't buy that's what you both really do...I have the idea you've traded stuff back and forth...here's my fear...and you soothe...here's your fear and she addresses...and all that is broken now. For now, hearing what is hers, separate from yours...would be where I am going. Emotions mess with our filters...ESPECIALLY fear. Getting what she's really saying, without automatic assumptions, means holding your own for later...for those simple drive-bys not meant to be whole conversations...

"She then called her self a "muts" (sorry, don't know an english word for that) for trying to talk it right."

"you doubt that you're communicating what you're feeling and thinking right now?"

That's the shortcut aspect of listen and repeat...because it says if what you heard was correct rather than "What do you mean?" which doesn't say anything about what you caught or your impression was...

"She said "for having a strong opinion on this situation. It's not like me to say that it may be too late to fix things."

"You don't see yourself as someone who condemns or writes off challenges?"

And instead...you said...something confrontational...nearly attacking:
"I then said "So why say it?"

Because she's SHARING her innermost questions and fears with you...not to solve, soothe or decide...rather, to share. By saying, "So why say it?" you're actually asking for her NOT to share who she is with you.

Is that what you want?

"You're right of course, but there's still a lot we can do."

And you caught the self-betrayal here.

What I believe is your inner child said the "So why say it?" when you meant, "Ouch, that hurts. I feel pain at the very idea that I've done things which cannot be redeemed. I feel very condemned inside and fearful. I know you and I know you really haven't written anything off or tossed anything significant away lightly. You're a fighter."

(Notice when you self-betray, it is more like your child saying anything to make their wish come true, and the adult truth being very different. No argh to it--love yourself more. Know this is normal, natural...and not something to punish yourself for. It's a freeing recognition, not a "bad" or "wrong" thing you did...an automatic one.

"Anyway, she replied "Because I do feel that way. But one way or the other I never allow myself to say something that's not nice."

"I hear you really edit what you say out loud, what you share, so that it won't be hurtful. Does that mean you feel responsible for my pain at times, when you don't mean to be hurtful, but I feel pain?"

Listening and clarifying...breaking the assumptions between two people who knew each other really well, and stopped seeing them as new...I know it sounds childish, low-level...assumptions are childish and low-level. Filters are protective devices with years of garbage in them...cleaning them out is rudimentary and necessary, I believe. True respect is simple...nowhere easy.

You said:
"I said "Love must be tough sometimes. Perhaps I would have woken up sooner. But that's about the past again, I'd like to think about the future."

Nothing wrong in what you believe (except making love into a lesson, that impersonal object instead of your personal love statement)...just asking to not state it here, where it can sound like you're saying to her, "Don't be like that. Don't feel that. Don't think that way."

"I said "If we can forgive eachother that would be a huge step in my opinion. It makes it possible to "leave the past behind" and stops resentment. Well, that's how I see it."

Forgiving too quickly is as dangerous as not forgiving at all. Same with saying "If we can forgive" instead of what you truly believe...humans forgive. WE DO. How do you get through each day without 20 silent miniscule acts of forgiveness? The IM session wasn't the time for this. Listen and repeat. Know better yourself what you truly believe and practice to yourself stating it simply, truthfully, instead of automatically. You can be excited to share your beliefs...they are yours...they are marvelous! Very valid beliefs, LB...timing is what I'm addressing here...and that we all, as humans, have roads to redemption...you're taking yours now, whether you end up married or not...your road is your choice. Hers is hers. Humans have to choose that road, first.

"She said "But after all these years I need peace, orderlyness and love. I'm emotionally exhausted. I don't have the strength to fight every day."

"You greatly desire peace, no conflict or chaos and to feel loved. You believe you fight your emotions or do you believe you fight mine? I'm unclear."

"I asked "Do you think it will be easier when you're alone? I want to support you, I want to be your rock."

Can you see how instead of listening and repeating you are confronting, which feels like a fight to her? She wants, flat out, to be heard, validated and acknowledged...NOT CURED for what is hers, as if she's wrong. Hear her, LB...don't refute, fix, challenge or manuver (sp) her, 'k? She can support herself, be her own rock. If you have to be that, then she's weak, needy and incomplete. Can you see how this could be the way we truly kill with kindness? We degrade without intention...believing it is love and it is utter disrespect?

"She said "But I can't just give myself to you. And when I'm alone I am in control... at least you can't hurt me anymore."

Your combatant answers got you to this disclosure...and it cost her emotionally. Attempting to manipulate what we want rather than acknowledge what our partner is saying about themselves, gets us to this pushed into a corner feeling...and I know you've felt this also, from her. Your union has a pattern...I'm asking you to truly break this pattern.

Write a listen and repeat response to the last statement she said above (the one I didn't do) and post it here.

"She said "I know, but you're still hurting me... not today, not yesterday, but you did since you made that commitment."

Now you're in the children's tug o' war of "Yeah, but you did" and "Oh, yeah? Well you did..."

This is where you don't want to end up...and you won't, when you listen and repeat...really get what she's saying about herself is hers...and you're being shared with...not to fix, alleviate, soothe, or rectify. When you fix, you're telling another person they are broken. That's the message. Or they may hear they are too stupid to fix themselves and you have to tell them how...so they can feel degraded, that you're condescending...controlling...and you aren't. You're disrespectful.

You said:
"I said "I know, I'm not perfect." What does this communicate? What does it REALLY mean?

"I fear you're asking me to be perfect. I feel far from capable, though I know I am. I feel like one false step and you'll leave me--one wrong word or look. I'm really nervous. I don't know why I take your emotions like a threat or condemnation. I believe you don't intend them to be."

If that's your truth...state it...not in answer to, but it would have brought the conversation back to listen and repeat. You can get off track and get back on! You can! Own your own stuff, LB. You can do this.

"She said "I'm glad you're not, me neither. I didn't expect that of you either." This is defensive...she felt put down by what you said, implying she required you to be perfect. Do you think she would have answered your implication with what I wrote?

"I said "But don't you think the intention is important as well? The work to make it happen?"

Do you want to know or make her know?

First, strive to understand, then be understood.

And to understand entirely...not one piece and then get her to understand (agree) with you.

"She said "Yes, but if it still hurts in reality it's not much good. Do you understand I am exhausted?"

See? She wants confirmation of what she said...not refutation.

"I said "At least you can now tell me that I hurt you without being punished for telling me. What do you mean by exhausted?"

See? You didn't hear that...it came before. And I believe your filter hears "You're making me emotionally exhausted" and you skipped it. She didn't say that. And then you said defensively you want recognition for changing, for not punishing her for telling you...and LB...this isn't a bash from me. Be HONEST with yourself. You do want her to acknowledge you've changed, you're desperate for it...could it be because you expect when she really sees you now, new as you are, then you'll be safe? Know that as a fallacy...you can't control how she sees you and she's bright, aware and as capable as you are...treat her that way...give praise to yourself (you really do deserve it, IMO) for your changes...know them truly for the benefit to your self, life and loved ones...you are changing for you.

This isn't bad or wrong...just you unaware of your intent. KNOW your intent first, before a word spoken or an action taken. Live your highest honesty within yourself.

Can you write listen and repeat statements for the rest of what you quoted from the conversation?

She doesn't feel safe talking to you yet...and listen and repeat is truly how we are safe and respectful. She can mock this, modify or embrace it...you can do it, anyway, your commitment to being respectful, not just wanting to be seen as respectful.

When you write some of the responses like the ones I did above for the rest of the dialogue, I'll come back and help you some more...There was a lot in the conversation, only I believe that listen and repeat would have not brought out all this check and check-mating going on...there would be no defensive reactions from you, no lecturing, directing...because you would have been focused only on understanding...and I hear dissuading, guiding, rebutting and honestly, arguing. You wanted very much to be heard, felt, known and understood.

I understand why. You're human and you've been decimated. We all really have here...and our craving for acceptance, not feeling attacked, being acknowledged, especially our own pain, is terrifically high. I'm asking you to write statements of what you feel--write them down and know them. Know what you crave and give it to yourself...practice your simple intimate statements for other times...know first, then be known.

Is that unreasonable, what I'm asking of you? You can say so. You don't have to be perfect to be loved...you can fail spectacularly and be loved anyway. It's a guarantee in the way I live. It's not being right that counts...it's wanting to do the right thing...not to get what you want, but to be who you really are.

You are doing a large part of this...in the face of automatic responses and reactions. Pledge to yourself to act, not react.

Take your time; this isn't a race nor a game to win. This is your life, all of you in each single moment...and only one moment at a time. Who you are is lovable, whole and complete...nothing broken or defective. Please stop seeing yourself that way and choose your life...

You're choosing it anyway, even by giving yourself permission to react instead of act. Revoke that one, 'k?

LA

Hi LA,

Thanks for your reply. When I read it Wednesday morning I cried. You seem to know what my real fears are better than I do... It's like I wrote earlier, I'm not very much in touch with my feelings. High IQ, low EQ.

I've been busy these past days, I'm going to write those responses you asked of me , it will make a good exercise.

I spent Friday evening and Saturday with WW, I thought it was good fun. Nothing fancy, just doing some shopping together, taking our time, simple conversations and some opportunities to be O&H for both of us. When I went home Saturday evening I thanked WW for the good time I had.

When I got home she sent me an SMS thanking me, saying she enjoyed it feeling familiar and normal again.

Today I worked in the garden. It was getting out of control, I had to do some emergency weeding <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi LA,

Finally made some time to do what you asked me to: practice some listen and repeat responses. Here goes...


"She said "But I can't just give myself to you. And when I'm alone I am in control... at least you can't hurt me anymore."

Write a listen and repeat response to the last statement she said above (the one I didn't do) and post it here.

I hear you say you don't trust me, my changes. You are afraid I will hurt you again.

She said "exhausted = I can't handle much more..."

You feel you can't handle this stress much longer? You want peace and quiet?

She said "Oh, I know I can handle a lot. I have handled many bad things."

You had lots of bad things happen to you in the past, but you always somehow managed to recover. You are a strong woman.

She said "I know where my boundaries lie. This one has almost been reached... I'll survive, but that's about it. There's nothing extra. And it's been like that for a while... that I'll survive."

You feel there's not much fun left in life for you? You will keep on living, but you have no hope for it to get any better?

She said "Yes, I won't kill myself or something. But I don't have the energy to enjoy anything... I do what I have to do and that's it. I'm not feeling happy about it."

The day to day things suck up all your energy, and you are not enjoying them?

She said "I don't know if your family loves me."

You don't feel loved by my family?

She said "Because I don't want us to bring this stuff with us all the time... that this subject keeps coming up. And don't have enough faith in it at the moment."

You don't want to be reminded of the affair all the time. You don't believe we can work things out.

She said "Yes... but what if I really don't want to continue with you? You'll never accept that."

You believe I will never accept that our marriage is over?

She said "The point is, at the moment I feel like I'd like to have a great marriage, perhaps just not with you."

You don't want to make our marriage a great marriage?

She said "It has to be with a person that I would want to do that with. Because so much is broken between us."

You believe too much has happened between us? That you can never get over it?

She said "I still remember the good things... most of them. I know. But I still suffer the consequences (of the bad things) daily. I don't want to talk about them either. But I do notice with everything I do that I'm influenced by them."

Same reply as above would seem to apply...

She said "I'm affraid to share my feelings with you. Sometimes I want to come closer to you, but I'm affraid you'll use it against me. Sometimes I want to take my distance and then I'm affraid I'll get an angry reaction from you. I'm constantly affraid that you'll come up with something to cross me again."

You don't feel safe sharing with me. You're scared I will use things you tell me against you. You're affraid of my AOs. You fear I will try to control you.

She said "Yes, and I will give it a place. I gave the crap with XBF a place too, but it's still good that I didn't continue with him."

You believe it would be bad to continue our marriage?

She said "I'd rather you didn't. But I'm mostly thinking myself. My feeling has always told me it will be OK... that I should try my best... my mind tells me that I should leave you... I'm still checking what my feeling can do to change that... my eternal positive feelings that is."

You feel like you should give our marriage another chance, but you are not sure it would be smart?


Well, that's all I can muster for now... this stuff is quite hard. I wonder if I'm over-analysing this...

We spent another Saturday afternoon and evening together. We did our shopping together, had dinner together (she asked me what I wanted to have for dinner, I mentioned something I could never properly cook, she liked my suggestion). Complimented her on the lovely dinner (chicken sateh with coconut, hmmmmmm!). We cuddled up on the couch, nice and close. Watched some ice skating on the TV, sharing our thoughts, enjoying some wine etc.

When I went home I thanked her for a lovely day. At home I had a text message saying she enjoyed it too, and that we might work things out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm trying to not get carried away too much. I'm not being pushy, I leave it to her to initiate contact.

Right, I could have known that I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />.

I used listen and repeat in an MSN conversation this evening, and she got upset about it again. I explained that I was doing this as a technique to learn to listen to her, that without doing this I kept "reacting" and "fixing" instead of truely acknowledging her feelings and thoughts.

She still wants me to stop doing it, she wants me to "just listen" and respond. I told her I don't feel safe doing that yet, that I am still learning. She said that it was fine to do it "silently", just not "bother" her with it.

To me this is disrespectful. I told her this. Am I being silly thinking this is disrespectful? She says I don't respect her feeling that it feels unpleasant for her. It's her feeling, I'm not resonsible for it, right?! Should I stop using listen and repeat if she feels this strongly about it, as in an LB?

Things went down hill again, and I said "This is exactly why I use listen and repeat. I don't want this kind of conversation."

She just says she doesn't want to continue with me if I keep "talking like this". I'm "pushing her away". What I'm doing now "is not working". I told her that I'm not doing this for her, I'm doing this for me. I am not doing this to "make it work" between us.

I'm so tired of this. It would be sooooo nice if she could accept the fact that I am not responsible for her feelings.

Then it went to "We will never get together again, I can never talk about serious things with you. Never could in the past either". I lost my temper, she lost hers... Bah.

After she closed the MSN window she texted me that "I only wanted a nice conversation about my feelings with you. I'm glad I got a reminder of who you are now. And then to think I thought we could get together again!". I texted back asking why she would say these deliberately hurtful things to me.

Bah. I feel really hurt by all this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Whatever I do, I can't do it right for Mrs. WW.

There's your answer. She is babbling to you because she knows you are right and she refuses to go there.....yet.

Now the question to you is: Do you want to be a married to Mrs. WW or the woman willing to carry YOUR name?

L.

Hello Orchid,


Your question is either very obvious, or a little cryptic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to interpret it as the latter, please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you are asking whether I am ready to go to plan B, the answer is no. My changes have not been consistent enough, and with my history of vague promises and not living up to them, plus the mental abuse, I need to be in plan A longer than 2,5 months.

NC is established, OM is absolutely not interested in pursuing a married woman anymore after the exposure I did in his circle. And WW keeps coming up with examples of what would never have worked between OM and her, in retrospect.

wW and me spend quite a lot of time together even though she is not living with me.

She apologized to me the next morning, even came over to do it in person. She has come a long way from her point of view in June (divorce, now!) to actually considering moving back in with me.

We just need to agree to the terms of her moving back in, since I don't feel like a false recovery.

She told me she's not ready to fully commit to the marriage yet, but she's choosing to stay in it for now.

LB

It's not a cryptic question. Many a BS take back a WS instead of their real spouse and end up with a false recovery.

Even though she is making strides, your description shows the WS in her wants to retain control by the claims that she is not ready to commit.

The real question is NOT if she wants to come back as she is now, but do YOU want her back as she is now? In other words, do you want to be married to a WS or your W?

True recovery consists of genuine repentance without conditions from the WS. The mindset of a WS is all about control. That's what that virus does to their mind. They think you are taking their freedom away. Not true but that's what their actions and words will say.

Learn how to set the correct expectations and learn it is ok to tell a WS, NO.

JMHO,
L.

Ah, that's what you meant. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm not sure what the definition of repentance is. She did say she was very sorry for her actions (the A). I have yet to hear this about our savings she spent on personal debts.

I did tell her that I would like full commitment from her before she moves back in, but the opinions on MB seem to differ on this if the BS is still in plan A. I've seen the "mild" way, it's easier to plan A when you are together after all, and I've seen the "hard line" way advised as well.

With plan B it is obvious, the WS has to agree to the terms laid out in the plan B letter.

What are correct expectations according to you? Maybe realistic expectations is a better word. Or, since LA doesn't like expectations <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, realistic boundaries?

What I'm mostly still missing is true ownership of her actions and feelings. Then again, that concept may be very new to her (it certainly was to me). We were both good at what LA calls "living externally". That way you can always blame someone else for your feelings.

LB

LB,

I want you to get your hopes up...your hope in YOU.

Thank you for practicing the listen and repeat...I wanted you to do it for you...to compare what you really hear to what is being said...not to get her to be nicer to you.

If you validate her feelings...summarize that you heard how she felt...you're doing that because respect is in your code. Not to get a certain response. I think you ran headlong into requiring HER to be respectful...and that isn't in the WW code...as Orchid really highlighted for you.

Because you weren't treated as you were treating her, you gave yourself permission to blast back...know this about yourself and your choices. If you are focused on her ownership, you're likely to miss your own.

You're human.

Where your thoughts are, there is your treasure.

Please tell me what your real goal is...to become who you really are, live from your code, know and enforce your boundaries and live a respectful life...or to get your marriage back through any means necessary?

One of those choices will get you a thriving relationship, even your marriage...the other will cost you your own soul. To do the latter, you have to believe you control what you humanly cannot...take full ownership of what is not yours and what you sacrifice is knowing your returned wife is there for who you really are.

Your WW's retaliation does show she's still in a wayward state of mind...use Orchid's reverse babble...which I believe is stating truth, like listen and repeat, with a twist...hand back everything that is not yours...emphasis on choice.

Maybe Orchid will see this and help me out...I wasn't good at this...I was a blabber pre-A...so I got silent rather than disrespectful.

"She still wants me to stop doing it, she wants me to "just listen" and respond."

You don't like my response? You want to control how I respond?

"I told her I don't feel safe doing that yet, that I am still learning. She said that it was fine to do it "silently", just not "bother" her with it."

You want to control how I respond, the manner I respond and not bother you with my feelings of fear and pain?

"To me this is disrespectful. I told her this. Am I being silly thinking this is disrespectful?"

Why would you tell yourself that you're silly in hearing someone demand how you speak, what you say?

"She says I don't respect her feeling that it feels unpleasant for her."

I understand you feel unpleasant. Uncomfortable. I know you can handle your own feelings. I do respect your feelings are not mine and that I'm not causing them by my response. That's mine.

"Should I stop using listen and repeat if she feels this strongly about it, as in an LB?"

Staying truthful is not an LB...she is uncomfortable hearing her own words handed back to her...having her own feelings and beliefs handed back to her respectfully.

"Things went down hill again,"

There's your DJ to her and to yourself. You have an expectation of pleasantness...as she does...so that truth cannot be shared, intimacy cannot be approached...your choice, LB. Your own expectation...true intimacy has ups and downs, distance and closeness...the goal remains the same...to be intimate...if you choose it.

"and I said "This is exactly why I use listen and repeat. I don't want this kind of conversation."

There you stated your expectation...conflict terrifies you, feels messy, ugly and intimidating. Speaking your truth might feel the same. Get that EQ up through practice and learn that your feelings are coming from your expectations (which you create) and your constant judgment of better, worse, better, worse, good, bad, oh, no...downhill...and you are experiencing a lot of anger, pain, fear and frustration that you are creating yourself!

"She just says she doesn't want to continue with me if I keep "talking like this"."

You don't want to continue talking to me because I'm sharing my feelings, thoughts and beliefs?

"I'm "pushing her away"."

You believe I'm doing this to push you away? You believe I am sharing myself, being intimate, with the intent to drive you away from me?

"What I'm doing now "is not working"."

Being intimate is not productive for you?

"I told her that I'm not doing this for her, I'm doing this for me. I am not doing this to "make it work" between us."

Awesome all the way around.

"I'm so tired of this." -- Better statement to have said aloud..."I feel beaten down when you tell me how to communicate with you. My intent is to connect with you...and learn how to do that through communication."

"It would be sooooo nice if she could accept the fact that I am not responsible for her feelings."

DJ...DJ...DJ...I say this not to respect her more, but you...it would be soooo nice if you could accept your feelings are not her responsibility...and that is the only form of your wish you can fulfill.

"Then it went to "We will never get together again, I can never talk about serious things with you. Never could in the past either"."

Ouch! You're choosing your perspective to be one of nevers. You are deciding our present, which is half mine, defining what is alone mine and erasing a past I lived. OUCH! I fear your rabid disrespect and you are crossing my boundary. I will be available to speak to you in two hours (or tomorrow at 2pm...whatever you decide is the amount of time you need to stop feeling flooded with anger from her being abusive...usually takes 20 minutes for our bodies to stop releasing those drugs shooting it through us)...this was your boundary enforcement point and you chose to:

I lost my temper,

You didn't lose it. You gave it full permission to be abusive back...as a release...instead of choosing to be respectful. How about revoking that permission?

"she lost hers.."

She didn't lose it...she thwacked you with it...provoke, justify, attack back and be the victim.

You gave her everything she wanted in spades...and took responsibility through example for her stuff...

And then it continued..."After she closed the MSN window she texted me that "I only wanted a nice conversation about my feelings with you. I'm glad I got a reminder of who you are now. And then to think I thought we could get together again!". I texted back asking why she would say these deliberately hurtful things to me."

Don't ask anyone why they abused you...they did. That's the important part. Had you enforced your boundary before blasting back...you would turn off your phone, not respond and not answer her calls. Period. You would not be available to communicate until you recovered your perspective.

"Bah. I feel really hurt by all this. Whatever I do, I can't do it right for Mrs. WW."

Stop making your goal to do it right for WW...and please choose to make your goal to doing right by your code...for your own self-respect, love and esteem. Yours. Not hers.

End the cycle, LB...tell me your predetermined progressive boundary enforcements for when she defines what is only yours...

I'll wait. You're worth my time, effort, compassion and energy. Find that injured part of you and help yourself to heal and not further injure. There's nothing wrong with you...you choose to be reactive instead of choosing to act. That's learned. Wanna make it a habit?

(((LB)))

LA

Hey LA,

I already told my WW my boundary enforcements when I felt I was being verbally/emotinally abused. First one: say that I feel disrepected. If the abuse continues, say it again, and then walk away from the conversation for one hour. I never stay angry very long.

I just didn't enforce my boundaries last time, and indeed, chose to be abusive instead.

Let me tell you about todays events. Yesterday she went to a reunion of her school, together with her sister. Her sister was going to spend the night at her apartment.

I was going to work on my bicycle yesterday, but it turned out an important piece of equipment was at WWs apartment, so I couldn't do much.

This morning she called me, we talked a bit about the reunion, told her that I couldn't work on my bike yesterday because of the missing tool.

She suggested she and her sister come over to bring it and have a cup of tea. She said she would prefer if we wouldn't talk about "it" because it made her feel uncomfortable. (I texted her sister some time ago that I would like to talk to her again (didn't speak with her since exposing to her). She never responded. I did tell WW I texted her, she didn't like it very much.)

I said that I didn't feel much like her visiting under those conditions. She then wished me a pleasant day and hung up.

Later she texted me the following:

"I already lean towards staying together, but I would like to make my own descision. Everyone is behind me, whatever I decide. My sister isn't going to try and make me stay with you. That will be my choice. If you try to talk to people in my environment again I only feel manipulated and that will be counter-productive. I think you should let me make my own choice."

I texted to her "I only want to talk to her, please don't make assumptions about my intentions."

She texted back "She doesn't want to talk to you, she told me. You should give it a rest. I really don't feel very positive about you through this. I would let you know if that happened, this is one of those times."

I texted to her "I don't want to be manipulated by you."

She texted "I'm not. I'm just letting you know the effect of your manipulation on me. I think we're done now, right?"

I didn't react.

She texted "Give me call, then she can tell you herself."

I texted back "She can let me know herself that she doesn't want to talk to me. I feel disrespected by your assumption that I want to manipulate her."

She texted "I'm not disrespecting you. I wanted to avoid an awkward situation. You seem to have to play your silly games, while I thought we were getting on the right track. That is what I call disrespectful. It's a shame you only think about yourself. That hurts me."

I texted "Ouch! I feel disrespected by you. You are assuming responsibility for my intentions in the present based on the past. I will not talk to you this way. After an hour I will be available again."

I then switched off my phone and went to mow the lawn.

When I switched it back on she had texted me "You told me yourself you talked to people to have them influence me. That is called manipulation, I think. I don't like that."

I texted "That was when you were actively having an affair. This is no longer the case."

She texted "I don't know why you want to talk to her and that you insist on talking to her, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt."

I did not respond to this yet.

LB

LB...why did you not have them over to tea?

Can you tell me directly, highest honesty?

LA

OK, I'll try.

I think it was because I was irritated by her assumption that I'd even want to talk about "it" with her sister during tea. The thought hadn't even crossed my mind until she mentioned it. So I guess I wanted to make some kind of point.

LB

Okay, so you reacted on your assumption...and as DJs do, got bitten. Hurts. I know that. Valid pain. You felt it...and it escalated, didn't it, the conflict between you?

Power struggles are fear-based and very difficult to break...until you do.

The reality is you're sensitive to her manipulations and she is sensitive to yours...I'm encouraging you to SEE your own first...to break the cycle...not to bash or put down...these are ingrained in us...learned long ago, before you even thought girls were cute...

A rule of thumb I began to use to see my own under-the-radar stuff was...

What you want most, you may be least giving...

If you most want to be respected, begin by respecting your self...you'll find wanting to make another person take your point drops off a lot when you take it seriously yourself.

You knew you weren't in the mindset to address the A with her sister. KNOW that. When we are accused, say of having that big purple head, and we KNOW we do not...there's not reactive pain inside of us. It is when we doubt, maybe so ourselves, because we don't know what we know firmly enough...

LB, I really want you to experience the freedom in life...real, incredible freedom...and that only comes when the DJs leave us...because we train our brain "I don't want that" and remove that permission from our beliefs...

DJs hurt others and ourselves, over and over again. I believe the brain does not learn from pain at all...we don't touch the stove again because we TOLD our brains, "I don't want that!" Otherwise, brain will serve us what we wanted before, the emotions and thoughts, that didn't have that signal.

When I urge you to know disrespectful from respectful, I'm talking about within yourself first...checking your intent, being aware and truthful there first...rather than being vigilant for her DJs and attacks.

Doesn't mean you don't enforce boundaries...just means you don't look for them being crossed FIRST...but to you crossing your own first...then others...the less you cross your own, the more you'll be able to enforce yours to others.

You're a marvelous human being, LB...and your awareness has grown, in my eyes, a lot. Can you hug yourself and tell your brain, lovingly, "No, I didn't want that reaction"?

LA

Hey LA,


Are you saying I was manipulative by not having them over for tea? Hmm, didn't even think of that. I only realized it when you asked me that question.

Why can I see manipulation by others and not by myself? Have I trained my brain to filter that out or something?

Yes, I doubt myself a lot, you're right about that. My biggest fear is that I will not be "good enough" and my WW will leave me. Of course, if I try to be "good enough" I'm bound to fail, or live a miserable life.

So all I can do is try and live from my code, from what I believe is "good enough" for myself, not others.


The former... but it's hard when you've lived differently for so long (as you know).


A hard lesson to learn, it seems I must fail a lot before I will learn this one...

How do you tell your brain something? Honestly, the concept is completely alien to me...

I don't feel so marvelous right now.


LB

LB,

Yes! We train our brains to focus on others and not ourselves...from our belief that pain and love comes into us...like we're empty or something. Our fear guards us by being sentries on the look out...not noticing all that we do inside of ourselves!

Great realization...I'm still finding things I do under-the-radar...which is what believe philosophers have meant when they say we create our own reality...we bring to us our external life from the inside...

Only I'm not all the way there yet.

I know our influence is for others and OURSELVES.

Goes both ways...can't make it only go one way...outward...we have no power over that two-way street.

What a blessing and a curse! (Depending on the viewpoint, huh?)

Will you challenge your belief about being inferior? Not good enough? That others determine your worth...and ask, Why would God design life to be that way?

Yes, this is hard...I believe I made it harder when I didn't get to the beliefs behind my choices and really look at them to ascertain their validity...I blindly accepted them...that others determined my worth, value, adequacy...so I'm asking you to make your struggle a little less of one...by looking at those first.

Changing habits comes from changing beliefs. Somehow, I didn't get that truth until much later in my life.

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What if you aren't failing at all? What if your choice to perceive yourself as falling short is your habit, from the belief that you will...rather than seeing all the progress you're making each time you don't?

And checking if you have reasonable expectations or not, to fall from?

Lower the bungie crane, LB.

You're human. You expected to have the job you loved for three years...a marriage which was magically great and faithful...control over other living things at all times, if you were careful, mindful, good enough...earning your life instead of living it.

Challenge that belief in yourself as a valid one, up against your adult experiences...and new knowledge, awareness...

And choose to believe you have all the answers inside of you already (I'm just reminding you)...and this is the path to rediscovering them.

How do you tell your brain what you want? Picture the most faithful, automatic, assumptive servant you can...your brain retreiving and storing...a mental valet...trained by you before you knew you were training...equally marvelous and dangerous, huh?

Brain has no agenda, secret will...an automaton to your own instructions...and you communicate with your brain wordlessly, through wants, desires and needs...which you taught the brain what those were...and as you are handed, automatically, each emotion, image, sound and sound track, you now choose what you want and what you don't...

Images which stab yourself...or voice tracks telling you that you're no good...if you were, this wouldn't have happened to you...and say, "I don't want that" and toss the image or sound track. (All senses are used...I don't know which ones hit you the most, which is the most direct to your heart.)

When you hear "What did I do to deserve this?" respond by not refuting, but discarding, "That's not what I want." Then consciously think, "Deserving isn't part of this. It is what it is right now. I want to see reality clearly."

This helped me to separate feeling done to...which has no control or power. It's a lie. People are DOING...not necessarily to me. Separating my part (as we did in your tea self-invitation) from theirs was crucial...and consistently doing that trained my brain to not hand me..."You're being controlled" which is what I'd asked for in my teens and consistently enough for it to be automatically determined by my brain as what I wanted. Until I didn't.

Choose to believe your WW was saying, "I fear embarrassment. I don't know if you will or won't do this...I just fear it."

Not about you...about her.

I think you see how critical DJs are inside of us, determining our experience, training our brain to be danger to reality, hence, to ourselves.

How do you feel right now reading these posts?

LA