Your justification in decieving both the BW and the OW are making me sick to my stomach. And by the by, I am the grandmother of a much precious OC. GROW some cahonies will ya! Stand up and do what is right for your marriage or leave her so she can find a better man with integrity and honor so she can find some peace! You totallaly s%%t on her and you feel YOU ARE ALLOWED TO MAKE DEMANDS! You gave that right up buddy, WHEN YOU UNZIPPED!
SORRY, EVERYONE THIS ONE JUST GETS MY GOAT. HE IS ALL JUST me, me, me, Me.

Post deleted by TroubledH

TH, you are absolutely allowed to have needs in a marriage and if that marriage is going to work, some attempt at meeting those needs needs to be made. No argument here.

I think the point that many of us were trying to make was that you cant dump this on someone and then expect them to jump right up and start working to meet your needs (and those that do, well I just think they are amazing). I think it is the sense of entitlement that your posts have that has set a lot of people off.

To use a crude analogy it is like you have cut your wifes legs out from under her and now you want her to run a marathon with you. Do you see where we are coming from.

There is no doubt that you two do need to reconnect and badly. I would suggest that you check out the emotional needs questionnaire on this website and see if it can help you find a way back. You can find it in the popular links box on the right of the page. I would also suggest that you pop on over to general questions and talk to some of the other formally wayward spouses. They will i am sure be able to help you with both your frustration at the pace of recovery and your lingering feelings for your OW.

Finally, when I said that your comment sounded childish I meant that it sounded niave, at least to my jaded eyes, lol. It sounds to me that you want some kind of spiritual connection and while that sounds absolutely fabulous the violins are often interrupted by the screams of the baby etc. Both you and your wife deserve to be happy but I think you might have some unrealistic expectations happening.

And while I know you are saying to yourself….but I had a connection with the OW! I would point out that that relationship had absolutely no basis in reality. It is easy for it to always be sunshine and roses when you are with an affair partner, because the affair exists in a bubble.

Finally (really this time), in terms of how long it took for me to accept the OC into our lives, I think I was lucky in that I knew about the OW’s pregnancy from 4 months in so I kind of had time to adjust myself to it before oc arrived. I didn’t find out my husband had maintained a secret family for 4 years and had a 3 year old with someone else. Can you see how that might rock her world?

I have seen a lot of women face this situation and for some contact is a given. For others it is a process that they need to go through. Admittedly some never get there. But for those on that journey, one thing I have noticed is that the speed that they get there is directly proportional to the amount of effort is being put into rebuilding the relationship by the formally wayward spouse.

Can I suggest that you two look at counseling again, perhaps even consider the Harley’s

Best of luck

Carolyn

PS. Please do pass on this website or my email address to your wife. I am sure she could use a helping hand.

Troubled,

You are in a tough situation, granted that you put yourself there, but that doesn't forestall compassion.

I think that your postings have a certain detached formality, like you are writing about someone else's life and not your own. Most people that go through this are emotional wrecks, both the WS and the BS. It seems that you are reconciled to just be fine no matter what happens and perhaps that freaks people out a bit. It is probably a mentally healthy place to be, congratulations, but most people in this mess are just an a bit more freaked out than you seem to be. Somehow, the way you come off, it seems that you don’t much care if you stay married or not. You aren't coming here prostrating yourself and recounting what a schmuck you have been . . . didn't you drink the koolaide before you came in? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Look, no choice you make here is going to be without pain. It seems that you are adamant that you will have your daughter in your life. It is well within your right to do so. I think many folks here recoil at the callous disregard that you appear to be showing to your wife. You are making decisions that affect her, yet she has no say into these decisions. That is not the way most married people interact. It may just be this written media, as it difficult to tell tone and demeanor from a screen.

Whatever happens just remember that your W has feeling too. She deserves respect because she bears the title of your wife. You need to show her compassion . . . she has a lot to deal with right now and much of the mess she needs to clean up was given to her by you, without her consent.

If you want to see the OC then go do so. Tell your wife what you are up to and offer her the chance to accompany you on these visits. But please . . . don't force the OC on your W. Don't try to guilt her into accepting this innocent child into her home. Perhaps she may wish to be involved at some point. Perhaps she will want her kids to play with the OC . . . I can't predict the future. Whatever the case, let your wife have this small amount of control over her own life. I think you owe her this much.

again... the answer is Y E S

it is very hard

PLUS

you mention a threat to take custody of the 2 sons away from your wife if she is unable to bow to your UNreasonable demand.

Your demand IS UNreasonable at this time.

the answer to your question is

YES, it is too hard for your wife right now .... and most betrayed spouses need at least 2 full years of loving support without continued contact with OP to feel safe ..... YES, you are asking too much for now

does your wife KNOW ahead of time you are still meeting OW alone? .... or are these meetings secret?

hang in here MrT .... you need to be on this forum.... you are all mixed up

Pep

nice try to make a strawman ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

no

we are NOT anti-men

we are vehemently anti-adultery

we know somethings you do not know

like how to recover your marriage

are you interested???

Here is the MOST useful advice you will get

[color:"red"] CALL THE HARLEY'S FOR AN APPOINTMENT [/color]

To schedule an appointment with Steve Harley, you may use one of two options:

Call toll-free 1 (888) 639-1639
or
e-mail (counsel@marriagebuilders.com) an appointment request by completing the form below.

your situation is complicated ... call a pro ...

Troubled H-

I need to ask this - Why did you marry your wife????

TH, you are allowed demands or maybe a better word is expectations. But do they have to be filled this very second? I mean right now...you are the half of the relationship that has to carry the load until she can get back on her feet. You took her out.

It is more than understandable to have concern and love for a child that is yours, but you sound as though you feel like you should be able to share that with your wife...right now. She's not ready. There are many BSs here on this board whose H's show their love and concern for the OCs...that's not the issue. The issue is that you want her to be at a stage where she's ready for the flood gate...and she's not there, and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe you stated in your response something about wanting to share your love and concern about the OC with your wife. Now I want you to really think about this. You want to have a meaningful conversation about your love and concern with your wife, whose Dday was 4 mos. ago, about the child that you had with another woman. For me personally, 4 mos. from Dday, that would be like my H wanting to share his favorite sexual positions with the OW...we're married, but some stuff I really don't want to hear right now. The conversation about the OC needs to wait. Why not talk to her about your love and concern for your sons?



You keep saying that like she has to be the one to make the first move or something. I mean, why can't you leave? Why make you both miserable? You said in your response...



It's not easy, no. But look at it like this....she begged you to stay? I'm sure she would have begged you not to sleep with the OW..but you did....You would have MASSIVE Guilt for leaving?....You probably had massive guilt while sleeping with the OW..but you did it anyway...and the quickest way to break your family is by sleeping with another woman and having a child with her...you've done all of that already.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, that's the same thing we're thinking with you...have YOU considered the other side. Most of us have compassion for your position...remember...our H's were you, but my H wasn't in love with the OW, he wasn't talking about leaving me and not loving me and not being my friend. He wasn't expecting me to be open to so much so soon. There were no ultimatums. My H and I had decided on NC, but most of the ladies here do have C with their OCs and it works, but it works because they got their marriages together FIRST....and for some, there was NC until that goal had been met...it made the C easier. That's all we're trying to suggest to you.

Anyone concerned with his using "the wife" instead of "MY wife" here? As if "the wife" is an object, not to be considered? The way this man (?) talks about "the wife" really stands out to me.

His (?) concern about the oc is far to questionable for me. Never does he (?) even discuss or concern himself with the hurt he has put the children of the marriage in. As if they don't even matter, an afterthought. All he (?) is concerne about is the oc??? Sounds so familiar.


As this is going, the almost bitter rage he (?) shows "the wife" looks familiar, ie other womanish.

He should leave his wife today. She is obviously to good for him and his children shouldn't have to spend another day with a man who is so cold hearted and full of hate for them and their mother. He should go live with the ow/oc and let his family heal. He doesn't get it at all. It is all me me me me me me. Sounds so very familiar.

I am also not so dense as to not know where I stand on the "ow side of things" via the net. When he (?) says that he is going to respond...even to Lynng, it amused me.

If this is truly a man, and has done what he has, and is meeting the ow and is putting the oc above all (sound familiar), and fights anything he is told that remotely doesn't kiss his but and supports him (?) his wife is better off with out him.

But I think this is a she, enjoying stabbing at BW's. Think about it. This man is an ow dream. Totally against the wife, the children of the marriage and only concerned with the ow/oc. And boy if that wife doesn't accept the oc, he will divorce....hmmmmmmm, who dreams of this scenario????? LOL

If this is a man, well, darling, your oc is not more important then your wife and her children. Any real man would see that. Your oc will get a piece of the hurt pie too. Or do you only think your wife and her children should? Who else dreams and thinks like this.....hmmmm I wonder.

I may suggest you head on over to TOW, they would love a guy like you. You are their dream man. Here, not so much. MOST women here would have your bags at the doorstep the minute you started giving ultimatums insisting that the oc is all that matters.

I especially like how you used the term "they and begging" when you talk about wives and staying in the marriage. THAT is also a fantasy of ow. They seem to think that wives beg and plead, yet I have never, in about 20 years of dealing with this with many wives, have I ever seen one of them BEG for a man to stay. Not one single one. Your "wife" is actually the first one I have ever heard of. Virtually 99.9% of them would kick you to the curb immediately. The only place I have ever heard of wives begging, is on the ow sites. Interesting.

Yes I have noticed that and so many other things.

Reading his posts and trying to figure out a way to show him how his posts are making him look, and that he is not getting the picture, has given me a major headache so cant respond at the moment. So going to go do some laundry and housework.

But one thing for sure I am going to meet my husband at the door with a great big hug and kiss and let him know how much I apprecaite him, and how lucky I am to have him for a husband.

Post deleted by TroubledH

Troubled H - you haven't answered my question - why did you marry you wife? Did you love her - how did you treat her? Did you treat the ow better than her?

My ex-h treated me like I was a possession - there to raise his kids and do his bidding. There was no hand holding - kissing - nothing - he didn't have a romantic bone in his body but still I loved him. Fast forward to the ow - she was a saint - he held her hand, kissed her made sure he treated her like she was the most precious thing on earth. Is that the same with you? Did you find you had to wine and dine the ow so of course she treated you kindly and with respect - maybe if you had treated your wife the same way you wouldn't be in this predicament.

I didn't so much notice "thw wife" reference but I did notice the "even LynnG comment". Why would any mm have any issue with her financial advice to protect marital assets from a greedy OW? I agree it may be an OW but none the less, TroubledHusband, I will share some advice.

I have read most of the posts but not all so if I have misinterpreted anything please correct me.

You say you have read "Love & Respect" and you see that you as well as your w have failed in the past to meet the needs of the spouse.

OK, that is a good thing. However, it doesn't matter what you have done or what your wife has done. That all is in the past. In the here and the now, you both, husband and wife have to work on showing love and respect to your spouse in order for your marriage to be rebuilt.

Your wife isn't here so I won't address anything to her. BY all means encourage her to post. However, what I notice is that you are continuing to disrespect her, which you know will contribute to the vicious crazy cycle. You take advice from the OW, instead of talking to your wife? It doesn't appear that you intend to honor your vows. So I think maybe you should just leave the home.

This isn't an OC issue, this is an issue of your marriage and you don't seem willing to restore it. So why not be honest instead of continuing in the deceit, and just leave. You aren't doing your wife and COM any favors by staying if you are continuing the adultery and living in deceit.

I did notice however, you seem to have 2 standards, one for your wife and one for you and the OW. You said you respected the OW more than your w. Well, that is sad, that is a choice by the way and it has nothing to do with what your w has or hasn't done. It is acceptable for the OW to make unreasonable demands regarding c, but you don't have any doubt that you will be able to maintain a r with your COM if you d. That in itself should tell you your w has much more character than the OW and that she doesn't want to use your children as pawns.

You will need to take responsibility for your actions and quit blaming your wife for decisions you have made. You can't have them both, wife and family & second family with OW, at the same time. You have to make a choice. OW was fine with being deceitful and her morals didn't prevent her from sleeping with you while you were sleeping with your wife. However, now that your wife knows it appears she WILL NOT and I don't blame her either accept you sleeping with her and another woman at the same time.

You have been given a second chance. You can waste it or you can do whatever is necessary to restore your marriage. And regardles of what you chose IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

You expect to continue to be disrespectful of your wife and hide behind an innocent child to try to convince yourself your actions would be justified. You can do whatever you want to do and continue to lie to yourself. But NO ONE is responsible for your actions and decisions but YOU.

I have been on both sides OW & BS and I know how when you are in an a, you rationalize and find justifications why your case is different. It isn't. You need to look inside and see what personal issue you aren't addressing that has caused you to be so selfish and do wrong when you knew it was wrong but you didn't want to face it.

I hope you don't leave, but I will not be suprised if you do.

What do you intend to tell your d?

The OW.

[color:"blue"] Fancy that. [/color]


Yes I do. There are many reason for this that I can go into if somebody wishes to know.

[color:"blue"] Lordy. I am putting in my petition to the powers that be for a smilie that barfs.

Classic. Straight out of the handbook....did you know TH that EVERYTHING you say about OW vs. W has been said before? You are NOT unique - your (gag) love for the OW is NOT that special...and your demeaning your wife is also straight out of the Adultry Handbook? Every-farging-thing. I told the Wookie that once when he was about as far along in the mess as you....he didn't listen to me either.

As usual, I was right...and as usual, he sees that now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Ah well, hindsight being what it is and all... [/color]



After reading “Love and Respect”, I saw what I was missing, and to be fair what I have not done for her. I have tried very hard the last 4 months to build a connection with her and to show the affection I now know she needs.

[color:"blue"] How long did you and your wife date? Was it longer than 4 months...just wondering. See, with the hurt you caused, 4 months is a droplet in the bucket of both y'alls healing. But 4 months can go A LONG way towards laying some sound foundations for both of you. [/color]



I know how I can build a loving connection to my wife. This is not really the question I am asking. I get that I hurt her to the core, I really do get that part! The question I am asking myself is weather she will ever understand that marriage is a two way street.

[color:"blue"] I can answer only for me...but yes. For ME this was a wake up call. I thought because of the kind of person the Wookie was and the kind of person I was that this would never happen to me (and neither did he - he'd tell you that never in a million bajillion years would he have done this). Subsequently, we failed to bubblewrap our marriage against this type of thing.

Right now, tho, your wife is still reeling. It will take awhile for her to get to the point of deep introspection to see what steps SHE needs to take to protect herself, you and your marriage.

She probably also feels VERY alone. I didn't know one person IRL that this had happened to. I'd never even heard of it (excepting, you know, like in the history books...or to those residing on the other side of the tracks...but not to professional, IRL people). I swear on my left big toe, if I'd found MB earlier, there would be no OC#2 - tho, the little ankle biter has made the journey much more fulfilling. [/color]


I know you do not know me, only the short things I have written here. I love my boys.
I do try to show them the patience that my father never had for me. That sometimes even the W doesn’t show. I know it seems like all I am focus on is the D. I know if I get a divorce, I will still have the boys in my life. It is very likely that I would at some point in the near future even get full custody.

[color:"blue"] I know you don't get this. I know rationally you THINK you've done so well by your little men. But Bubs! Every second you spent with the OW was a direct assault to their world. Every milisecond spent with her was a drop of acid rain on the foundation of their lives.

I know you think you've done well sheltering them from this...you probably even tell yourself that this is about you, OW and your W...but because the ARE YOU AND YOUR WIFE, little bits of mini mes all rolled up into new and exciting individuals, how could it be anything BUT about them? Do you see? Can't you see? They WILL take this personally. You can bank on it. [/color]


I will take the heat for the physical act of the A. But we both own the breakdown of the M. I know where I lacked in the affection department, I know where I lacked in the romance area.

[color:"blue"]HNHN (His Needs/Her Needs)...it REALLY helped the Wookie and I pinpoint where we need to lift each other up. [/color]


YES, at time I do not want to be there. YES, it did put a crimp in my plans.
Every time I have left the house she has pleaded with me to stay. Once I was told I could leave “guilt free”. As you can guess, I did.

The next day the W calls and says “what about your promises”. I don’t want to fail my family any more than I have. But guilt trips alone are not enough to keep us together.
I need to see some change on her side as well.

[color:"blue"] Has your wife had any MEDICAL help? This was devestating for me. Unfortunately, the Wookie's own guilt and grief were such that he could not help me get help for myself. The turning point for me was when I broke down in the doctor's office and spilled it. The doc got me on anti-d's (am off now), and OMGoodness! I could now DEAL with my feelings without turning into a puddle. I could DEAL with the Wookie, I could DEAL with the children. I could make decisions again (beyond what to have for lunch).

Think of depression as a drug. Your brain gets used to firing certain stress chemicals. Even once the stress is removed, the brain's been doing it so long it can't shut it off by itself anymore (think Fight or Flight times a billion). Anti depressants help the brain put a damper on the firings.

In order for your wife to make the changes you need, perhaps she needs help. It would have been a very well recieved kindness had the Wookie noticed the circles I was running in and helped me. Unfortunately, he couldn't even help himself at the time. [/color]


The D is 3 moths younger than my second son. The A started before I knew the W was PG.

Is it really childish to want to share your inner most feeling with your spouse?
Do women really think men are so big and strong that we can deal with anything and that we don’t need our wives to support us? That us big strong men can do it all alone?

I wanted intimacy with the W. I needed it as much as she did. For the way we were to each other, I am surprised that she didn’t either.

[color:"blue"] This is again where HNHN would help you both. [/color]




I don’t expect at this point that she “Love” the OC. Only to acknowledge that I have a right to have feelings for this child like I do my Sons. That this little girl is just that, a little girl. It is not her fault she is here. The D also deserves to know that she is loved.

[color:"blue"]Perhaps your wife will realize this is not the baby's fault. I did. Most do...even the ones with NC.

Right now, she is doing her darndest to protect what she knows and loves, her family. Do you begrudge her that?

If you do, shame on you.

[/color]



I may do that. I may even give some of you her direct email address. I see how this could be of value to her.

[color:"blue"] niosgirlatyahoodotcom She needs to know she's not by herself....that there are people who understand, and that people survive this pain. [/color]



Yes I lied to the wife; no I did not ignore the children. I think you may have me confused with somebody else. I never once got a complaint from the wife about serious lack of time with the boys. I was home by 6:30 – 7pm every night and home on weekends.

If you are really interested, I can explain how this was done.

[color:"blue"] Not interested. But refer to my post regarding your young'uns above. Doesn't matter how you justify it. You STOLE from the very people you were entrusted with to protect. You GAVE those stollen moments to someone who IS NOT YOUR FAMILY (no matter what your pillowtalk was/is). [/color]



Well Lynn, if it makes you feel better to attack my masculinity, then so be it.
I will survive it.

I have already addressed the childish issue.

As far as compassion: I knew what I was doing was wrong, and yes I felt very bad.
It got so bad that I finally did tell the W. As arrogant as this may sound, I could have played the hoax for many years. I could have paid the CS without detection. I wanted the wife to have a chance to exercise her power. I seem to have made all the other choices.

[color:"blue"] Geez. I think you have the same beat up copy of the handbook the Wookie used. Must be stained with the tears of a thousand families now.

Wah-wah. "I want the wife to make choices..." Blah.

Please understand that at this point in road she may very well be unable to make any choices.

I'm trying to tell you...dunno if it's working...YOU'VE been dealing with this for years...YEARS, and you are expecting your wife to MAKE CHOICES knee jerk almost....AFTER her world as she knows it ENDED - BAM! And all she can see is nuclear waste for MILES.

I dunno if I'm 'splain' this right. (sigh)[/color]



As I see it, I have only asked that she be acknowledged and that her bothers and I can know her. I have seen from the posts that some women know quickly that they can separate the OC for the act that got her here.

“Afterall, your children with your wife are innocent too.”

The children I will agree, the W, well, I already covered that.

[color:"blue"] The wife IS innocent. Whether you agree or not. The H-bomb was pushed by YOUR finger alone. YOU made choices for your life and hers without her knowledge. BAM!

Waste and destruction by your hand alone.

Your wife and ALL the kids are the innocents. If you ever face that, and acknowledge that...THEN you will be on the right path to save them (and your marriage). [/color]


I am not prepard to write a book about the W and I as a couple. All I can say is that if you have a son, think of a few women that you would hope they wouldn’t end up with.
If they did, then you may wish that somehow they could find happiness in God, themselves or with someone else.

[color:"blue"] Since YOU brought God into this (because I was wondering if you believed).

You chose her. YOUR responsibility. Your responsibility to GOD, since you married her.

Also, as a mom I would NEVER condone actions by my sons that would send their souls to h3ll. Nice mum and dad you have. "Hey Bubs, we love you so much that it's okay with us if you go to h3ll for sleeping with an OW, as long as it makes you happy." They probably are nice. It's just a very, very WRONG and irresponsible and selfish way to think.

The OW in my sitch has the same outlook. It saddens me.

Oh, and the same goes for your OW and you. Love does NOT send each other to h3ll. Ever. If you love someone, you do your darndest to save them from such a fate.[/color]


God command women to respect their husband weather they deserve it or not!
God also command men to cherish there wife weather they deserve it or not!

“I never said I was politically correct, It’s a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of women these days.”

I am trying my best to abide by that command.

Is it so hard to believe that I want to share my deepest fears/hopes about my child with my W?

[color:"blue"] Right now, maybe. Later, if you prove yourself trustworthy...no. Poja-ing also opens the doors to MUCH communication. [/color]


Yes I am real weather you like me or not and I too have feelings. A point some of the poster seem to forget. I disagreed with the preacher’s stand that I should pay CS and have the D go way. That maybe the OW could “find” a father for this child.

I was open to that idea at one point, but as I got to know the OC, I just couldn’t stomach the thought. The W can never completely take the boys away from me. Are all divorced men with children guilty of abandoning their children? (I mean the one's where they decided to leave.)

[color:"blue"] Neither can the OW. The contact door swings both ways. [/color]



Yes, I know I screwed up.

[color:"blue"] Good. I AM sorry for your hurt. I understand it, too...if that's worth anything...for a BW to understand the WH's hurt.... [/color]



Well, I have already addresses the attack on masculinity issues.

I get the feeling that most women here REALLY DO BELIVE THAT THEY ARE MORE INNOCENT that the OC. I suggest you take a long hard look as to why the relationship broke down so bad. I have known a lot on men who have cheated. Most were with women that were not more attractive than their W. Nor were they better in “other ways”.

Most of these dumb men were looking for someone to stroke their ego. Me included.
We also have a common trait that we didn’t really know “how to make our W happy”.
I know I did a lousy job of showing affection. It’s not that I did it on purpose, I JUST DIDN’T KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS.

[color:"blue"] First off, I believe the OC are innocents...just like the rest of the family were not given a choice in this matter, neither was the OC....poor baby can't control which chute she slid out of, could she? Nope.

Good that you see how lousy you WERE. How lousy are NOT now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Every day that you do something trustworthy, every kindness you show, everytime you are considerate...it counts.

A very wise man here told me once, "You love what you nurture." What and how much are you nurturing right now? Are you only nurturing you and your wounds, are you nurturing the OW, are you nurturing your wife...are you nurturing your LOVE FOR YOUR WIFE? Because nurturing your wife is different than nurturing the love you have for her.

Think Bubs. Take stock of your garden. What are you tending to? What might need some weeding? [/color]


Well some here think I am acting as a woman :-)
I don’t hate the W. I just don’t get where she is coming from sometimes when it comes to the OC.

[color:"blue"] I do. It's called terror. [/color]

I will address the conditions of CS and visitation in other questions.




I think you have me confused with someone else.

[color:"blue"] 'Snot that Bubs. Sometimes this media doesn't project the intent as well as we'd like.

Capice? [/color]


I spent a lot of time thinking about that subject. About her finding someone new.
Like I said in other post, I fully expected her to give me the boot.
The W wants to work this out. I owe it to her to try despite my feelings.

[color:"blue"] You owe it to her not to try, but to do, Padawan. [/color]


God commands us to stay with our wives. I know this will rub a lot of you the wrong way. How can I believe in God and do what I did. I can only tell you that if it where not for my faith in God and trying to “do the right thing” I would be with the other woman.

[color:"blue"] Good. You have a smidge o'morals. You need to give it to God. Bet you my left big toe you've felt pulled in two directions so bad you feel like Stretch Armstrong w/out the clear red goo in the middle....

God will help you see your path. But you have to ask. He also makes the walk easier. I'd say ask the Wookie...but he's not a computer soul. I'll gladly relay any ? you have to him and get back with answers if you want.

There were those on here who though HE was a lost cause. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> On them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/color]


I am trying to find out what is normal. As you can guess, times have been rocky. The W family just wants to sweep all this under the rug. I know the W is in pain, I just don’t always know what to do or what to expect. That is why I thought I would try posting and see what happens.

[color:"blue"] She needs someone who understands. I'd lay odds on it. She needs it like the Jews needed manna during the exodus. [/color]



You are correct.

[color:"blue"] Yah. But what has been done for her to allay those fears? [/color]


I love her as a person, we have not had that “LOVE” or much of a friendship these last 7 ½ years.

[color:"blue"] Classic. Seriously. Not trying to belittle your feelings...but ILYBNILWY is classic. Please re-read about loving what you nurture. Practice it. It's hard at first...you have to tell yourself to do it...then, it's like breathing. The air (love) is there...you said so...you just have to remember to BREATHE! [/color]



That’s what has been happening the last 4 months. As I have tried as much as I could.

[color:"blue"]Respectfully, and I know you feel you have, but you haven't. But TODAY, you can start.

The only thing lost is time....and God gives us what we need in that respect. He wants you to tend to her.

Lead her home to you by your example. That's what God wants you to do...I know you know it. [/color]

There is much to be learned here. I hope to bounce ideas off on these ladies and the few gentalmen.
I sure don’t want to keep making bad moves.

[color:"blue"] To make no move is a BAD move. You're settin' your toes in the right direction Bubs. [/color]


Remember, it really does take two in a relationship. I can sacrifice many things in this life, happiness being one of them. I draw the line at my children.

[color:"blue"] I don't have to remember it hon. I LIVE it. [/color]

Many of you may disagree with how I am prioritizing things. After more thought, I may come around to your thinking.

[color:"blue"] Or maybe you can come to a middle ground that is perfect for you all! Nothing is wasted by changing your life for the better, no matter what happens. [/color]


So he is a gentleman and a scholar too ;-)

[color:"blue"] Gentleman? (snort) I suppose...in the sense that the rough, tough cowboys of the old west had a very definite sense of right and wrong...no matter how rough, tough and dirty they got. Scholar....(smile...melt my heart)...I dunno. He's smart, and tenacious, and kind, and loyal (now)...he's perfect for me and I adore every atom, iota and thought that makes him my Wookie-man.

See? Now you made me cry (in a good way). [/color]


I sometimes feel that way too!

[color:"blue"] I know. That's why I'm talking to you Bubs. [/color]


Is it ever really that easy? Try leaving when they beg you to stay. Tell me your faith in God does not kick in or a MASSIVE wave of guilt. How do you really break your family.

[color:"blue"] If God is talking to you, listen. You don't break your family. Nuh-hunh. Nope. Bad ju-ju.

You are being told what is right, aren't you? [/color]



I think I have covered most of these questions above except the last.
The first 3 months I will get to see the child for about 3 hours every Saturday.
This is a get to know you phase. There will be a third party their so that I don’t have C with OW. I have the option to bring the boys if I am able.
The W is not allowed to be around the OC for fear uncivil behavior.
This is a get to know you session with D and a cooling off period for W.

The next three months, the W is allowed to come.

After that then we will have her most of the day Saturday 3 times a month.

We are not allowed to miss an appointment, or at least two in a row.

There is more but I would have to look at paperwork.

[color:"blue"] Is this legal paperwork, or something the OW had put down?

MY only problem is any contact by yourself between you and OW. It is wrong RIGHT NOW (at this point in time...maybe not later...MAYBE). It WILL (GUAR-UN-TEED) make your wife feel left out, insecure, alone, and UNSAFE! All things YOU have in your power to keep from her. Be careful of that. Be honest if it occurs, but be careful.

Love that you thought out that a 3rd party would be there. LOVE it with toe curlin' love....that is a GREAT thing IMO.

BTW: It is an offense on a grand scale for either of you to assume, conjecture or insinuate that your wife would harm or harbor ill will towards a baby. Did she drop your own kids or something? Geeze.

Also, I have found that most people...nearly everyone that is outside looking in on these situtaions have the same fear. I will say nearly every BW I've ever talked to would rather eat glass than to harm ANY child. It's the stupidest projection of, "I don't know what I'd do in a situation like that..." EVER, EVER! We are not chimps. We are humans. We do not harm babies to get them out of the way or out of jealosy. To utter "protecting my baby from the horrible jealous BW" is to insinuate she is nothing more than an animal, imo.

PAUGH! BLECH! BARF!

[/color]



Yes it does matter, why do you think I am willing to give this a try?

[color:"blue"] Not try, Padawan, you will DO or you will fail...everyone.

Enormous responsiblity you've chosen for yourself, no? [/color]


Well if you happen to have some wise words of wisdom, I just might listen!

[color:"blue"] (passing Bubs the megapack of Q-tips) [/color]


Well, I not sure why she wants me their either, but I owe it to her and God to try.

[color:"blue"] Um, dufus...have you ever thought she might actually love you??? I mean, it's the ONLY thing that kept me trying with the Wookie. [/color]


No, I think I started in the right place. I have been open with how I really feel. I have been accused of being full of $hit. Well, perhaps, but at least I have been open about it.
I am hear to understand what other W in the position of my W are thinking and why.

[color:"blue"] (looking around) Cest moi? Thinking? Not at that time...just trying to survive at that point in my life. Try to remember that and react with compassion instead of anger or frusteration if she's not behaving the way you'd wish....it'll go a long way, believe me! [/color]



“Your needs and wants are on the back burner.”

They were there long before the A. Like I have said before, I know having an A was wrong. I felt trapped by responsibility. I have done my best to live up to my responsibility.

[color:"blue"] Who's fault is that? If you say hers I'll laugh my a$$ off at you. HNHN. You can fix this. [/color]

Do any of the women here acknowledge that their husbands have needs too?
If so, I would like to hear about it.

[color:"blue"] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm all over Wookie's needs. He's all over mine.

Funny how once everything falls into place, how precious that what you took for granted becomes.

I would not be surprised if you and your wife feel the same way in a year or two.

It does take time, tho. No genie in a bottle for this one Bubs. [/color]

I would be curious to know how many of these ladies really think it was ALL about sex?

[color:"blue"]"Not I," said the mouse.

In fact, after speaking to my OW friends (gasp, shock, Oh MY!), it's rarely about a booty call (if it's LTA)...it might start that way for some....but the human heart is not something you can play with willy nilly and not have it get damaged.

That's one of the reasons, I'm certain, that God handed Moses those nifty rules. He did it to help us remember not to hurt ourselves.....

Did you get hurt, Bubs? Cos, I think you did....I think that you're hurt by the hurt you've caused yourself, your wife, your kids (all of 'em) and you're even taking a bit of the claim on the hurt caused to the OW.

How close am I?[/color]

What do you really think the driving force was?

[color:"blue"] I can write a disseratation. You want it? I KNOW what the driving force was. Thinking/conjecturing does not go as far as rock solid proof. [/color]


Well I have never used the word “Noble”. Yes I am trying to figure out my mess. That is why I am here.

OK, this will sound pretty messed up, but I will tell it anyway.

At first I thought by having an A, I could actually stand to be in my marriage. No I didn’t plan on OC arriving. Yes I know if your fly is open and you have it unwrapped, things can happen. Spare me the biology lesson. I get it! You will all be happy to know that I have since gotten fixed.

Yes I should have left. No I didn’t feel justified in leaving. Is being unhappy really enough to leave your marriage? I feel the answer is no.

I also learned that A are not a real smart idea either.

[color:"blue"] Good. All good imo. Now what's your plan? Never, ever underestimate the power of a good plan. [/color]



I know joint custody sucks, but it is better than no C at all.



It’s all wrong. I am having a ****** of time to figure out the “right thing to do”.

[color:"blue"] Step 1: Give it to God.

Not the nanby pamby stuff. You need to get down on your knees with your bible in your hands and give it over. You'll know when enough of that is enough. You'll feel it in your marrow.

Every time you feel lost, repeat step 1.

Step 2: Tell your wife about us or help her get help for herself. She might say she doesn't need it...but she is lost right now...she couldn't find her way out of a paper bag (speaking from experience)

Step 3: HNHN and Surviving an affair. They will gitcha where you're goin'. Make an appointment at least for yourself with the Harleys. The number is up at the top o' the page somewhere. [/color]


That shame belongs to me and the OW. There is a big difference between rape and A.
I love all my children, is it so bad to love them all equally?

[color:"blue"] No. But it IS bad that you didn't think enough of the children BEFORE this happened and spared them this.

I'm not saying your DD isn't a blessing...she is SO a blessing....and she might be the balm to the wound you and OW created in OWs life...but your selfishness DID/WILL be hard to explain to her.

For OW, since you read here and I have my suspicions as to which one you are...Thank you. I hope you stay as far away from this MM and his family as possible. I hope you find REAL love that isn't tainted and please be kind to the W and treat her with compassion. You've done a piss poor job of it so far. You, also can redeem yourself by your actions here on out. [/color]


When I compare that with a little girl who feels abandon by her father and brothers, I just can’t see the two as equal. I know she will feel embrassed, but people are dealt with much harsher things in life and lived.

[color:"blue"] How nice that you've boxed this up for her. Did you wrap it and put a pretty bow on it, too?

Sorry.

That, btw, was a DJ...DO NOT MINIMIZE THE PAIN YOU'VE CAUSED. Yeah. She'll keep breathing...people can you know, even when each breath is agony. [/color]


Well, it depends. I don’t want to make her miserable in life. I don’t want to be miserable either. I am seeing more and more that marriage is a skill.

If we are both willing to practice the skills necessary, then yes, we can be happy.

[color:"blue"]GOOD BUBS! You first. Lead. That's why God made you the guy, and her the girl. It's in you. Open that Good Book....it'll show you the way. [/color]


Gee, you read my mind. I can tell already your man is a great guy ;-)

[color:"blue"]Better than most - NOW.

He'd rip out his own tongue before he'd ever utter those words again, tho. They are a cop out of the worst kind. They are a placebo thrown out so that you don't have to do any REAL work. [/color]


See above for reply.

[color:"blue"] Got it. Replied to your reply. [/color]




I not sure if ‘trolling” is the same as “Flame Bait”, but I will do my best to keep a civil tone. [/quote]

[color:"blue"] That would be it. Don't worry Bubs, at this point in your life, I'm sure you've felt you have a lot in common with bait. One day, I hope you realize you are better than that. Only your actions (not words) will tell.[/color]

TH,

First welcome to MB. This place has been a life saver for me. I first came here nearly two years ago when I found out my H's OW was pg. Since then we have been through h*ll and back due to the extreme selfishness of my H and the OW. I wish you could see into my heart and into the hearts of my children to see the result of the devastation that these two wrought on us. I have never in my life experienced this kind of pain. My H kept going back to the OW. He didn't want to lose me and our children but was unwilling to ever completely let go of her. She did everything in her power to ensure my children and I were hurt. YES..that is true. I have that in her own words and in her own writing. HER wants, desires and HER child were more important than the committment my H made to me in front of the Lord. More important than our COM. I have from the gate been willing to accept the OC in my home and my family. I offered an olive branch to the OW when I learned she was pg. I got my hand bit instead.

I have never been allowed to meet my stepson. I have been told she fears I would "harm" him. What a freaking joke. I love children. I am a great mommy. How could someone that deliberately hurt me over and over by f*cking my H and taking time away from my family say I would hurt her child? And where does YOUR OW or YOU get off prejudging your W after the two of you plotted to dissemimate that poor woman's whole world?

As for your W not meeting your emotional needs. How could she? You have not been fully engaged in your M for over 4 years. Do you think she noticed? Of course she did, but if you are anything like my H you are an accomplished liar who convinced her that her instincts were wrong. I ALWAYS knew when my H was back with the OW. He gaslighted me big time each time until I DOUBTED my instincts.

As for your so called parents, they make me sick. My MIL is now "best friends" with the OW. So I have been betrayed now, not only by my H but by the woman I thought of as a mother. And what about her grandchildren? She betrayed them too, just like your parents betrayed your COM.

As for your boys. What exactly will all this teach thme about the sanctity of marriage? What are you teaching them about God's laws? Shall we throw out the commandment "Thou shall not committ adultery"?

You have much work to do. If your wife needs support I am available. killnme-2004@yahoo.com

Give her mine too

thunderstorm@bis.midco.net

Th, would you PLEASE stop saying THE wife? She is YOUR wife, not THE wife! sheesh
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dunno. It offended me at first...but I've called my son "the son" and always call my h "The Wookie."

I know a gal that calls her h "the husband" when referring to him.

Might be Bubs' turn of phrase...

But Bubs, please understand to many it is offensive and try to take it into consideration....

I think there are bigger fish to fry than those two words.

Like...um...CALLING THE HARLEYS.

- Kimmy

Yes he is very much so and he knows it. But the reason he still has me is that he was willing to do whatever to make the marriage work, he put me first, he was there to help me with the pain, the anger, he showed true remorse, guilt and even weeped for the pain he caused me. He still to this day makes sure I know I am number one in his life.

Besides just asking for forgiveness, tho for healing to begin those words need to be asked, but after he asked for that he did what he had to do to get it. He made it clear that no matter how long or what it takes he will stick it out until then.

I didnt take a advantage of the situtation and put a life sentence on him, at first I was on my guard, protecting my heart but with his constant working at the marriage to prove me that I could. I did go thru so much pain and emotions (and still do at times) but he is patience and is right there beside me while I try to deal with it. He showed me the respect and dignity and in exchange I showed it back to him.

Yes I do love him with all my heart and in alot of ways we are like honeymooners again, but that is only because of his part in to make it so, to make sure i knew, and with time I slowly let the wall down and let him back in.

"Imagine that your H (you may not have to imagine) didn't want to talk to you or kept saying "your fat, lose weight".

no- I do not have to imagine - he did all of that and more -how about ugly - miserable and his pet name for me was *itch - but yet - I never looked beyond my marriage to make it better - I tried to make it better with him and it was no go. I acted the way I did in response to the way I was treated.
I have to tell you - we lived in my ex-h childhood home and I hated it too - never felt like it was mine - so I do kind of understand that part of it. And maybe she felt like you loved your job more than her - you have been married 7 years? and 4 of those you spent with another woman. How did you expect to have a marriage when you were off with another woman and you can't tell me you didn't treat the ow differently - maybe that's why things always seemed so rosy with the ow.
"Remember, she has been raising my daughter for 3 years. She has plenty to be angery about. I was not thier when we thought D had a heart problem. I was not thier when she was born. I was not thier when OW was sick and needed help. I always felt I should be there to take half the load. If not for OW sake, for the D's sake."
I don't buy this - she made the choice to have her D and raise her by herself and she made that choice when she slept with a married man.
I was pregnant when we got married too - and my ex-h used this as an excuse to get an annulment - even though we had been engaged for 8 months prior - I always felt like he felt he had to marry me - maybe your wife felt the same way?