I just think someday you'll regret giving into her financially in this divorce process and being the "nice guy" as she dices up your heart...especially...if YOU contributed MORE to the equity in the home than she did.

I think you should try to take advantage of your postition and be ANGRY enough to NOT make this so easy for her to just walk away with a "NICE" settlement.

You may have such an opportunity if you are interested. I understand your feeling pretty low right now and just wanting it all to go away. Taking a stand for yourself, I glean, may, in fact, be a step in recovering your sense of self which she has demolished. It's OK if you don't feel the same way especially if we are not talking about a lot of money. I wish you well either way.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s.- "REAL" proof is the cornerstone of the wayward spouse's denial belief system...they KNOW that you don't have a camera or microphone in the bedroom with them so they can forever deny it. No biggie...just so you know from what we've seen here on MB I'd estimate that it's 99.9% likely they are having a physical affair. You don't have to convince HER, she already knows. Just know what you know and move on. You are right in the fact she will NEVER admit it without absolute proof (or a convincing attempt with bluffed bullet-proof proof) which isn't necessary if your content to exiting the marriage anyway.

I wouldn't say I'm content to end the marriage, I just feel like it is over and I would be beating a dead horse. And I just can't accuse her of something like a PA without proof. It just isn't justified at all.

I still love her, not doubt about it. But I can't live with someone that won't love me back or even want to give me a chance (which I've tried for over 4 months now).

How to detach...now THAT is what I need to learn next?

I'm confused...do you want to try and save this marriage? If so please KNOW that it is VERY possible, I gave you but a brief glimpse into our lives, but even with that, you can see how far gone that I was-Mr. W thought for a time that we were HISTORY...Our marriage was saved, and is better today that it EVER was...So, are you walking because that is what YOU want or because you don't think you have a shot at saving it? BIG DIFFERENCE...Make a decision...Should you decide that you want to save it, or even need help in making that decision, the absolute BEST advice that I could ever give you is to call Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers, A.S.A.P.- Here is the link for the counseling center... It will be money well spent, I guarantee you...

Mrs. W

Mr and Mrs. W. ..I fear that you're wasting your time with Paul....unless he actually sees them engaged is a sex act he doesn't have any proof....and I do not believe that he will ever "man up"....and tell his wife what he knows..or suspects.



Paul...you just passively go through the divorce process the way you have handled trying to save your marriage. It'll all work out just as you want!!

God...Lemonman would have an absolute field day with this guy...

I'd like to just chime in for a second about "proof".

If a person is in denial or has flatly decided they are not going to take responsibility there is no amount of proof or evidence that will deliver the effect you are hoping for.

Not if you had them on camera..in front of a live audience..with a team of doctors witnessing and authenticating penetration ..it would still be denied.


You have to look at behavioral patterns and say..does this apply? Do I see familiar territory?

Personally I think that the evidence is adequate to make the assumption that she probably IS having a full fledged affair.

However..I'm not going to try and convince you of that..because everything I just told you about the WS goes double for the BS.

If you can not and will not accept conclusions the evidence that you already have suggests..there is nothing I can say..nothing I can show you that will change your mind.

I hear ya Send me, and honestly, I concur...breaks my heart to watch though...

I was actually thinking of asking him if I came over to his house, and he had say, 25K stashed there and if when I left, the $$$ was no longer there, would he believe me innocent of taking it because he didn't actually *SEE* me put in my bag...I'm just guessing, but I would presume this to be his answer: "Well, since I didn't actually see you take it, I couldn't really assume that you did and accuse you of it, because that wouldn't be fair...I mean someone could have tiptoed in while we were talking-you did laugh really loud that one time..." If I am right about his answer(or anywhere close), NATURALLY, I am gonna hint like crazy for an invitation to his place...What say you Paul?

I honestly don't mean to be sarcastic, but I just HATE the FOG...Be it WS FOG or BS FOG...It just makes me sick, sick, sick...

Mrs. W

I honestly don't think it is possible to save this marriage and as much as I love my wife, I see a lot of issues I've mentioned before that I'm also battling...

1. The ties with the parents and the whole group of friends around her. She has never really broken that "tie" with the family enough to become independent.

2. Alcohol, alcohol, alcohol...she likes to drink and have a good time with friends this way. I don't. I also think she turns to it instead of dealing with problems.

3. Her communication with me was not good. Her way of dealing with things was pretending they would "just go away".


These are MONSTER issues on TOP of the affair. Yes, I do love my wife and I love her for better or for worse, but I honestly don't think she wants to be with me anymore. She is really LOST in a multitude of ways...not just the affair.

THAT is why I don't fight anymore. I've been fighting for months and months. She has already filed and it will be final in almost one month.

Even if I did have SOLID proof of a PA, I don't think it would bring her back to me. I'm sorry, it is just the way I feel.

As much as I love and care for my wife, I've got to step back from the storm and move on. Yes, I would take her back if I knew it was possible...but like I've said before, I truly feel like it is over.

I'm sorry if I'm confusing everyone. I'm just tired, I feel like I've done what I can do, and if I dont' stop and get on with my life (even though I wish she was in it), I'm only going to get dragged around.

Sorry I'm driving everyone so crazy. I'm no expert and I appreciate the comments.

Paul - exactly what would you consider solid proof? Finding your wife in bed with OM and screwing him perhaps?

Are you stupid or are you just trying to make it look like that?

Sheesh.

Shaddup Mrs W.

Right back atcha Big Kangaroona!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Do you kiss Mrs. BigK with that POTTY MOUTH of yours? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Regularly, incessantly, Der.

knew that would flush you out

BigK...

Persistant insomnia, combined with my insatiable curiosity, compel me to inquire...Just exactly what is your weekly MB quota for the use of the above quoted word? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm thinkin' that somebody around here desperately needs to "play the mod card" to keep furriner heathens like you in check!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I mean, just where is the "JUSTUSS" around here??? Let's see, I need to come up with a plan...Ermmm...I wonder if the mods around here accept bribes along with requests? Hmmm...How do a couple of weeks at "banned camp" strike you BigK? Lemme see what I can do on that front, and I'll get back to ya!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Gee Mrs W, I think that's my only one for the month!!!

I promise I'll play nice but PaulD needs a fire lit under his butt!!

PaulD,

Denial...most of us here were deep in it at some point during the A. In my sitch, my WH had at least 2 PA's and one EA. My WH will deny to this day that the first PA was groping, and that was 20 years ago! One time, which my mind remembers for eternity, he admitted he wasn't sure bc he passed out, when he woke up there wasn't physical evidence that he had, but he wasn't sure. This must have slipped in a weak moment on his part, usually it's "I don't remember". My response, I think you remember, I'm sure you have re-played it in your mind. I now accept that it has, I no longer accept the I don't remember bc it is the only logical conclusion. His last PA, denies that it "went all the way" bc although they tried to twice, he was, ehem, unable to. They then made a joke out of it...I'm sure everything but that happened, and I am not entirely too sure that it didn't. I go back and forth, well, he does have that "problem" (which he refuses to address with a dr), when I said I was going for an AIDS/STM test he said it wasn't necessary due to the above. I mean a man wouldn't say that unless it wasn't true I would think, but that is logic and I just don't know if WH will ever tell the truth regarding the physical part. I am left with believe what makes me more comfortable or believe what is most likely true and move on. I agree with you on the EA part, that is more devasting than the PA part.

I never considered having "proof" about the PA with either of them, this is something that most BS's don't have physical proof of. It's something you know deep down inside that you can either face or don't, it is somewhat private. In either event, as time goes on, more and more reality will start to be accepted by yourself. It is a healing process, and I wish you well, either way.

Since this is an MB site, I can't help but add that I think your WW never had to face the consequences of her actions, her A never ended while you were separated, thus your M never had a chance to recover.

I respect that you feel that you must move on, bc frankly while there are many sucess stories, lots of us in recovery still struggle and wonder if the M can be saved. Sometimes a decision, whether it is the best one or not, is better for all than limb....

Best of luck to you

Paul,

If you do not want the marriage to end, then your real decision is this:

Are you willing to take the decisive steps necessary to try to save your marriage?

Are you willing to confront the affair, expose it, do a Plan A/B as necessary and then persevere through her anger/withdrawal? Then are you willing to do marriage counseling to fix your relationship?

People here whose spouses were deeper in the fog than your wife are telling you it is possible to save your marriage if you are willing to give 100 percent to the effort.

There are no guarantees, but it is possible. Trying would be a leap of faith.

Are you willing to try, with all the messiness and uncedrtainty that entails, or not? Yes, or no?

That's the question to answer.

No is a legitimate answer, too, for all the reasons you list, Paul. You've got no kids, a short history with her, and she has a boatload of problems that you know about (including issues with alcohol).

Whatever you decide, though, you need to understand that she was playing you. I have no doubt that the reason she separated from you 4 months ago was in pursuit of this affair. I know how hard you tried to reach her, but you had no chance at all because of the affair. She stacked the deck against you, and without knowledge of the affair, there was no way you could win her back.

Let me breakdown in a nutshell my WHOLE situation:

I've been with my wife for 5 years, married for 3. Divorce will be final in August.

Her parents live in a town 20 minutes from where we live. It is a very small country town. Her brother lives there as well and many of the same guy friends of the family still live in this town...ever since HS. This environment is very laid back, and a lot of drinking goes on for entertainment. My wife still loves to socialize and drink...and not just one beer...enough till she is sloppy drunk.

When we were first together, I participated with her, but not to that level. In fact, then she didn't really drink as much and we did more things together socially as well.

Her mom and dad are very nice. But her Mom tends to baby her a bit...but then can turn around and make her feel guilty about the smallest things. Her Mom and Dad divorce when my wife was in 2nd grade. They got back together 4 years later...but have never remarried. He had an affair. They really don't seem happy together and you can almost feel that she still hasn't forgiven him.

Ok, so the last year or more I've been dealing with a lot of anxiety issues, esp. social anxiety and panic. I think a lot of it has to do with a chronic pain issue I have had for nearly 10 years. I would say though, I live a very normal life with the pain. Don't even take pain meds for it anymore.

Over the last year of more my wife and I became roomates. I didn't show my love to her or make her feel loved. I didn't do social things out of fear and anxiety. So she felt alone and it hurt her. She didn't speak up because she didn't want to be a "nag" to me. She thought it would just go away or I would get better. During this time she said she started to eventually "check out" from me. I started to become very proactive about my issues and she knew it. Of course this anxiety affected our sex life. She wanted it more and I didn't. Just before the separation she also wanted to start having kids...but I didn't try as much as I should have because I was not only dealing with my anxiety, but also leaving a job of 6 years to work full-time at home. She felt let down about the lack of "excitement" on my part about kids. But I have told her that I honestly wasn't ready at that time since I had so much on my plate.

So in Feb. of this year, she finally broke down and said she wasn't happy. We separated. I gave her space, I tried to talk to her to get her to come back, I made changes in my life and anxiety, etc. We were very friendly to each other, but I could never negotiate her coming home. Things only got worse and more distant until she finally said..."she is just to far gone" and had told a friend in an email..."I love and care for him, but I just don't want to be married to him".

She also recently told me that our differences she just "dealt" with over the years. I'm more introverted, bookish...she is more social, loves to drink for fun and be with people. I like things simple. I can see how we were attracted to each other...we were opposites.

So here we are. I found out about at LEAST a EA with her ex-bf from high school who has always been a close friend out in her small town. I've confronted her on it. During our talks and the confrontation, she cries a lot and you can tell emotionally something may still be there. I would think if it wasn't, she may not cry. I may be wrong.

I finally read over what Plan A and Plan B are. I really think my only option is Plan B. But honestly, I can't see her coming back. She would have to cut off ALL connection with her ex and he is so entwined in with her family and a best friend of her brothers. Also, he is into the whole drinking, good time thing as well.

It looks like with a Plan B, what I have to do is make sure I leave on good terms with her that I'm open to her for reconciliation and that I care and love for her. Then, "go dark" and stop all contact and let the affair "die its natural death". Then if she comes back or hints at it, do it, but make sure to set ground rules, etc.

Whew! I hope that clears things up more for those of you.

What do you think?

Is there a real chance or am I battling to many things (the environment she is in, the drinking, the bond between her family, the opposites in our personalities, her non-confrontational and non-communication style, etc.) that this marriage is doomed?

To be honest, I think it is dead.

Paul, I hope someone experienced with this comes by, but I haven't really seen anyone touch on the drinking much. I had recommended Alanon to you a while back, as that is somehting that has made a world of difference for me. Have you ever thought that maybe the lying and the EA are part of possible alcoholism? Again, I'm not saying I understand this, just that from my limited perspective it looks like perhaps a possibility. Alcoholism is a disease, not a hobby a person chooses to have. If she had diabetes, and didn't treat it, would you give up on her?

First of all, I'm sorry Paul that you are going thru this mess. I read your story & it sounds just like mine.

My xWW did the same things you have described. She had some new friends that became more & more a part of her life. Drinking several nights a week with them & partying became something she really enjoyed & looked forward to. It was during this time I too had some social anxiety. So we became distant. Then one day she wanted to talk...she wanted a separation. I begged & pleaded. We even went to a MC. But she still wanted to separate. So we did, against my wishes. I think it was to help her ease her way out from thinking about me. I finally had enough after 2 months & filed for D. It just ended quietly.....just the way she wanted it to.

IMHO, I think the drinking & the partying is something she may think she missed out on in her life. My xWW felt that way.

Anyway, your story sounds so much like mine...even our ages are close.

Like others have said, your wife is playing a game with you. Maybe not intentionally on her part, but she is just trying to protect herself & her interests right now. The bottom line is that she doesnt want to be seen in a negative light. I get the feeling if she is anything like my xWW, she doesnt want anyone to know the truth about what is going on. It would be embarassing to her if others knew the whole story.

If you feel you need more proof...find it. There are many ways of finding out the truth. Then once you feel youve gotten all the proof you need...expose her. Tell everyone. Some would say not to, since you don't plan on saving the marriage. It will at least bring closure to you. I did, and it helped bring me closure. Yeah it was revenge, but it gave me a little control over this roller coaster of a ride we call an affair.


Some have mentioned denial. I went thru it.
I found out that 1 month after our D she had already moved in with the OM & they got a property mortgage. Even knowing that, you know it took me 2 years to finally see the WHOLE truth. Just this past Feb, I found out that they got married. Her & the OM. Not even 2 years since our D. Its like going thru D-Day all over agin.
So, the truth is there...you can wait like I did or find out a lot sooner.


Oh BTW, her little friend who is giving her the 'advice'...she is a b*tch. What a sack of crap this person is. Just my 2 cents. I've been there & experienced that.

Paul,

Maybe you could call out specifically help with the alchol. I think that Pepperband and Melody Lane have experience on this issue and could shed some light.

My youngest sister was married to an alcoholic. When they went to MC, the therapist told him he had to deal with his addiction to alcohol 1st, otherwise the MC wasn't going to work and it would be a waste of all of their time. Well, he liked the alcohol more than the M, they were divorced. BTW, she is now married to a great guy for 13 years, 3 young daughters.