I do test the waters still. So far they are still a little cold to jump in. LOL.


Now if I could get the kids to see that sometimes. The alcoholism hurt my relationship with OS and I am trying to mend that fence. FWW was not capable of handing out discipline so I did. I know there is some resentment from OS because of this. FWW would call me at work to discipline him. Can you say STUPID, STUPID, STUPID HL.

But on the good side now that I have stopped doing that he sees FWW does not handle the sitch's as well as I did. He likes my discipline better now that he sees how mom reacts. LOL.

It will get better. Heck it is better already.

This detachment stuff is good. LOL.

Boy...talk about passing the buck!

I can see how forcing you to play the 'bad cop' role with your OS made things difficult and confusing for him.

I'm glad things are on the mend...and hope that the two of you will have a stronger relationship for it.

They're really not kidding when they say that alcoholism is a 'family' disease!

At least the boys are young enough that you have plenty of time to work with them before they become independant.

Hang in there HL...you're doing a fine job indeed!

B.

Banyak,

You have been great!!!!

FWW started talking about the fourth step. I kept my trap shut of course and listened.

When she got done she asked what I thought. I said that is very interesting.

She said what is interesting. I said the whole thing.

No advice, no comments nothing. All I said is I am really glad it is helping.

She started talking about Grudges. She put her mom in there. Then the sponsor asked her for 3 good memories. My FWW couldn't think of any. Of course this hurt and depressed her. Well usually it would get me upset. Because this is the person, her mom, that she wanted to move to NY so the kids could get to know.

Well I felt nothing about it this time. I didn't even care to go back to that BS anymore.

I can honestly say she is really confused right now. She can't see the difference. Usually I would withdrawl and then come back. Now I am not witdrawn but something isn't right for her.

Hopefully she will get it. I am not going to make myself emotionally availabe just to get hurt again. Prove it is safe and I will become available.

These exact issues may be a large part of your W's fear of working a 4th step! Taking a personal inventory means getting out of denial about one's thoughts and behaviors in a very concrete way. Ouch! It's getting down to the nitty, gritty hard work of changing thoughts and behaviors. Of publically (one other person) sharing some of your deepest darkest "secrets". Those dark parts of yourself that you just know, if anyone else knew about them, you'd be shunned, abandoned, proven unworthy of love. Not on my top ten list of fun things to do! Yet part of the cleansing, healing, releasing of some of those things alcohol or drugs have helped suppress over the years.

So, while I detest the disease of alcoholism, and hated many of my H's choices and behaviors while drinking....I have great admiration for the courage of those willing to take this journey of bottomline honesty about oneself and willingness to make amends and change. Not sure I could do it sober, with no drinking problem!

Thanks for the kudo's HL!

That was some nice work on your part with the step 4 chat you had with your wife. She got to have an EN met by having you listen to her thoughts and feelings without judgement...and you didn't have to take ownership of those thoughts and feelings. Yup...gotta love detatchment!

I know it's a bit of a disappointment that she doesn't seem to be catching on to your approach, but don't worry, it'll come.

I might suggest being cautious with this stuff for the next while. You see, she's used to getting a reaction from you in these situations. It may be the PA in her, but she seems to be one to seek out the negative attention. If she continues to see your lack of reaction she may try to push some buttons to create a situation where that negative attention comes back at her.

It would be a normal reaction for her at this point, because it appears to be her comfort zone.

If you see her trying to push those buttons it might help to focus in on a positive aspect of the subject at hand. It might confuse her again, but she'll enjoy the positive attention and maybe even follow your lead.

Eventually she'll get out of the habit, but it may take a few tries for her to understand the difference in you.

Remember, encouragement, empathy, and support are still possible while using detatchment, just so long as you don't take ownership of her 'stuff' in the process.

You're really on the right track HL...keep it up!

I hope you guys have a good weekend.

B.

Well she caught on and I am now officially a: horrible, miserable, evil, mean, etc person.



Well she tried. During our convo she dropped about 10-20 DJ's and LB's. I did pretty darn good. I dropped one LB at the very end. I did keep telling her she was PA though.


I will try to remember but right now I could really care less about the whole darn thing.

Ok HL...time to slow down and breathe.

Of course she sees you as the bad guy...you've changed an approach which changed her status-quo. I'm betting it isn't really you she's upset at, but the change...because she doesn't understand or feel comfortable with it.

Remember, many alcoholic's in early sobriety are unable to understand or express their feeling well. Typically most emotions at this stage are fear, ego, or self esteem based...all of which result in the 'anger' response. As she delves into her step 4 she'll start looking at the depths and levels of her feelings. When that happens she'll begin to see that feeling say... insecure, doesn't necessarily mean angry.

Remember, you're using detatchment as a tool to protect yourself from getting caught up in the insanity of her actions. Just because she acts out of anger doesn't mean you're on the wrong track, but only that you need to detatch from her anger. She owns that response...not you...NO MATTER WHAT she says or does.

Next time, perhaps you could try responding with something like this...

'I can see that you're feeling upset/angry right now...what is it you think you need to do FOR YOURSELF so that these feelings can be resolved?'

Whatever her response, you can come back with...'ok...I'll give you the time and/or space you need to give that a try.' Then remove yourself.

I know you're discouraged and tired right now HL...but please don't give up just yet. Your new approach is working! All you need to do is get through this adjustment phase and hold your ground. Changes like this take time, and certainly aren't easy, but they can make things different if you can stick with it.

B.

Banyak,

Thank you again.

After I posted this I got a suprise.

My FWW finally started talking to me in a productive way.

We had a conversation that actually went somewhere.

Keep your fingers crossed.

She actually told me she could understand my hurt and anger.

Wow. Well I am still staying detached but testing the waters.

In the past I jumped back in and that was a mistake.

When we talked about NC she said she understands she has broken my trust and understands why I wouldn't trust her to move. She said she is going to work as long as it takes to win it back.

Pessimistically optomistic about that one.

Holy sh.....cow!!!

I'm so happy that you've had this little bit of progress HL...congrats!

Remember that little phrase of mine?...make the right things easy, and the wrong things difficult.

She just did something right!

Be sure to let her know how much you appreciate this conversation and the effort she's willing to put forth as a result. No LB/s or DJ's...just praise and support.

Keep using that detatchment...it's working!

Thank you.

Yes the detachment is working.

However just because we had this little step forward I need to remain detached.

What normally happens and I have learned from the past is we have a good conversation. IMHO that should open the door for more communication but the FWW sees it as the start and end.

I will test again and see where it goes.

Got some serious convo's coming up. When we talked about amends she asked me what I thought she needed to do to make amends. The first thing she shot down.

So now in order to do that we have to talk. I have started a list. We will see how it goes.





The only one that can truly benefit now is her. She told me she is not willing to do that. I said fine just realize it effects the trust I have for you.

Thank you.

Yes the detachment is working.

However just because we had this little step forward I need to remain detached.

What normally happens and I have learned from the past is we have a good conversation. IMHO that should open the door for more communication but the FWW sees it as the start and end.

You're right HL...one step towards communication doesn't mean giving up on detatchment. It may change how often you need to practice it, but that's all.

When you say you've been talking about amends...do you mean in terms of the AA program, or in general? Also, was she asking how to make amends to you, or someone else?

I'm curious because it sounds as though she's getting ahead of herself. She hasn't done her 4th yet, and amends don't come until steps 8 & 9. IMO, she isn't emotionally ready to be thinking about them just yet...there's still much emotional work to do.

The other point is that the 'how to's' for making amends will/should be discussed with her sponsor when she gets to that point. Asking you which amends should be made and to whom is touchie (sp?) ground, as you run the risk of her working the program the way YOU think she should, instead of an honest program for herself.

Of course, if the amends pertain to you personally that changes things...and I hope the conversations regarding that go well. However, I still think it's best to wait until she's on steps 8 & 9 before talking about them.

The bottom line is this...it is suggested that we take the steps as they are laid out, and in order. They're set up the way they are for a reason, and doing otherwise can undermine their success.



I'm not sure I understand you here...she isn't willing to do what? Are you referring to the amends idea she shot down?

Hang in there HL...remember we're striving for progress...not perfection. Just take it one day at a time, and try to make note of every little success - it helps...trust me!

Take care,
B.

Not in relation to AA at all. We were talking and she said she has always said "I don't know what you want from me?" I told her that since her A I have told her what I wanted from her but she doesn't do it. I told her I am fine the way things are now because quite honestly it is much better now then it has been in the last 3 years.

She kept focusing on how I treated her over these last three years. I said I know I haven't been the best but lets face it you have not been honest and open. You refused radical honesty and I knew there was much more then you were telling me. She said I appologized for that and told you I wish I wouldn't have been honest with you at the beginning.

Well long story short she asked me what I would need from her to forgive her and start moving forward.

She said tell me what you want from me and I will decide if I am willing to do it.

Thats where this comes in.


I have asked her to tell me what happened truthfully with out a question and answer session. What has happened is that I would know the answers before she told me all she did was confirm what I knew or figured out.

Now this was the one thing I wanted from the start and she has said no. The reason I really wanted to know is what she did directly contradicted why she wanted to move to NY for the 3 previous years. Which is spending time with her family. Well now I know she spent most of her time with OM and not her family, it might make it harder for her to keep telling me how important they are to her. Which is really why she wasn't truthful about it.

So now I know and I can feel as though I made the right decesion not to move back. Her family has never been that important to her and we have never been important to them. It is just the way it is.

So now that I know that if she doesn't ever do that it only hurts her in that I will never trust her as much as I could if she did tell me.

I don't believe or never will believe that one spouse has the right to decide what they will and will not tell their S. I will always have the belief my FWW has the capability of doing something wrong and hiding it from me.

That doesn't mean I can't stay married but it means that I would not be to willing to agree to do something that would require a great deal of trust. So now my boundries will be different.


I know, trust me if I was striving for perfection I wouldn't still be with her today.

I realize I am not perfect and I never hold anyone to a higher standard then I hold myself. I think my FWW does though and that seems to be a hurdle that needs to be cleared.

Thank you so much for your help

HL-I just wanted to duck my head in and let you know I'm still around thinking of you. I'm wishing the best for you as I always have. You're a wonderful strong and couragous person whom I admire for all the heard work you've done, not to memtion you're perspective.

I hope you've been taking some time to spend with those fabulous boys of your's? You haven't mentioned them recently or maybe I missed it!

I'm doing well, FYI, just not posting to much. Things are pretty smooth on the homefront right now, I'm just starting to wear thin with the lack of sleep. I'm trying to get as much rest as possible but I think my immune system is trying to get the best of me and I'm stubborn about it!

Take care, you're in my thoughts! I'll be around a little while this afternoon. Oh, did you read Naomi Judd's book? Your sig line was in the book that's why I ask.

Hi hurtingless ~

I'm married to an active alcoholic, and I know where you are coming from.

Can I make a 2 suggestions?

Take your focus off of her and her program and what she is in recovery. You aren't her parent and she is not your child, yet you sound like her dad. Little girls rebel against their controlling daddies.

How do you take your focus off her? One way (a good way as Banyak already discussed) is detachment with love. I'm not sure that you are quite getting what that is though. Here is an old thread for you: Detachment with Love

My second suggestion would be - instead of worrying about where she is in her program is to work your OWN.

Get yourself into AlAnon and work your OWN 12 step program. Yes, you do need your own Step three!

What I discovered when I started Al Anon, was that I had spent a large part of my marriage blaming my husband and his alcoholism for my misery.

And then, when I got honest with myself, I found out that I was not a victim, but a volunteer. And that I could be happy joyous and free - regardless of his drinking status or lack of recovery.

To my horror, while working my own 12 step program, I found out that I had enabled my husband's drinking in an insidious way - he used my controlling behavior (dictating where he was, who he was with, what he was doing) as an excuse for not just the drinking, but the affair.

Does that make me at fault? No. But I did provide him an excuse.

I stopped providing the excuse.

Did that stop the drinking? Of course not, he found another excuse.

But I can now look at myself in the mirror and know that I do not contribute in that way any longer.

Peace and freedom for me - regardless of what he thinks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the clarification HL...now I understand what you were getting at.

I was in the same boat with my H during early recovery...tough place to be.

Thankfully my H applied program principals to his A and eventually (after doing a mini 4 - 9 on the A) found the courage to be completely honest with me. It took a few months though - even with all his years of experience in the program.

My hope for you is that as your wife progresses with her own program she'll come to understand the need for complete honesty in your relationship. Her sponser will stress the need for honesty in the step 4, and it should grow from there. First, she'll be honest with her sponsor...then as she learns about accountability & responsibility she'll likely grow enough as a person to find the courage to be honest with you.

The drawback here is the time involved in the process - I know how tired you are of waiting!...but at least now there is a light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how long the tunnel looks today.

Hang in there...be strong...and keep moving in that positive direction you've been working on. You CAN do this!

B.

Bramble I understand your point. Just to let you know I really stay out of her program.

Understand I do have trust issues with my FWW. The great thing about this board is I can look to people like Banyak and find out if I should be concerned.

Very early on in this thread Banyak helped me relieve my concern.

I am currently trying to figure out how to get help for me as well.

My personality is such that I research a lot on my own then decide a course of action.

I am dealing with my codependent, enabler, conflict avoidance issues now.

I have come to peace as you have with my part in this. I am not without fault and I fully understand that.

During our last conversation she was telling me I was not a good H since she had her A.

I pointed out some of the things I had done right. I also asked her if she thought she had been a good W.

We discussed her alcolism up until she went into AA and how it affected me and the family.

She asked me why I didn't make her stop then.

I just said you and I both know I couldn't make you stop. I said all I could do in not be an enabler which I was and I appologize for that. I also said there were times that I made it clear I didn't like it and you blew me off. I realized you weren't ready.

This was me taking accountabilty and ownership of my part.



That is my hope too. My concern is not with her recovery from alcohism now as much as it is that she thinks the program is going to solve all of her problems.

The whole PA thing and some of the other issues are also big stumbling blocks.

I don't think my wife needs courage to be honest. I think she needs to realize honesty is important.

I don't think it is the drinking that caused this I know it is her childhood and her upbringing.

She was molested by her father(which was swept under the rug) and her mother is not stable mentally. She never had any consequences for wrongdoing growing up because no one was around to do it.

She shared part of her step four work with me. Grudges.

She has one with her mom. Her sponsor asked for 3 good things her mom has done. She couldn't think of any.

This is a problem that she needs to realize effects her for her to live a happy healthy life.

I am pretty darn sure she will at least never relapse while we are together because I will not live with her if she is not sober.

But if she doesn't understand that her emotional maturaty level is directly corolated to her childhood then our M will never be as rich as it could be.

That is my hope. I have mentioned it before and she says AA is all she needs. I agree she absolutly needs AA but she also needs to deal with these other issues.

Whew!

There's certainly a whole host of things on both your plates isn't there!

One nice thing about AA HL...it does state in the big book that those with problems beyond what the steps and traditions can help with should consider professional help.

The trick is identifing and accepting those issues...and becomming willing to seek help for them. If a sponser has been around for a while they can sometimes recognize those patterns in their sponsee's and make suggestions for outside help...but again, that process takes time.

Sometimes doing service work, especially in treatment centers, can help bring those things to light. Once you can learn to identify those types of things in others it's easier to see them in yourself. And the bonus is that the treatment centers have professionals on hand that actively participate, so education is easy to come by.

Give it time HL...first and foremost she needs to deal with her alcoholism. Eventually she'll come to recognize there's other issues at work here, but until she learns to be honest with herself and others she won't have the capacity to see the forest for the trees so to speak.

Take care, and have a good weekend!

B.

Right the sponsor has only been in the program for 3 years now. Not that that is a bad thing. I just think the longer you have been at it the more insight you will have.

I am hoping that her sponsor can see this.

The real problem though is my wife's PA behavior. You see the outside world that has never crossed my FWW has one perception of her.

The rest of the world that has crossed her has another perception all together.

So seeing these issues can sometimes be difficult. Heck I married her and didn't see it for years.

She tends to treat most people like disposable assets. So there aren't many people that have seen the negative side around.

When you are the sweetest little thing that is so considerate and caring how can anything possibly be wrong at home. Well I don't get that person at home. LOL.

I hope you are right though that there comes a time she decides to get help with the other issues.

"I am currently trying to figure out how to get help for me as well."

hl,

I also recommend AlAnon. I attend a weekly all-men's meeting and it has become one of my lifelines.

My qualifiers are my alcoholic mother and three brothers. But, I am able to use my steps to address FWW's VLTA and her other addictive habits too.

I'd guess 3/4 of the men in my group are dealing with alcoholic wives who are also having affairs.

It’s where I first learned about loving detachment, and how do deal with my "codependent, enabler, conflict avoidance issues."

I'm still learning.

Find an Al Anon group, hl. It works.

With prayers,