A little background. We've never established a visitation agreement and I'm not happy with what she's been doing. I'm very close to taking her to court over all of this but I want to give her one last chance before I end up declaring all out war.

She says she's going to consult a lawyer on a visitation agreement. Below is what I originally wrote her, followed by her response, followed by the response I want opinions on before I send it. Please let me know. I've tried to minimize the LBs, which was tough, but I tried.

The original response:

WW,

Who is this someone and why is this being done without my inputs?

You are completely going about this the wrong way. You don't do this with someone else, you do it with me.

You are again under the mistaken assumption that it is you that I want to see. It isn't. I want to see the kids.

I also feel that if the only time I get to see them is the weekends then you will get them Sunday night, not 1030. It is only fair since you have them every day.

Don't lecture me about hobbies or getting a life. I have a great job, great friends, and plenty of things of my own to do. This does not, however, in any way shape or form take the place of the time with my kids that I have a right to have and that they have a right to have.

Again, I will not accept a unilaterally devised visitation schedule. It will be done between you and I or not at all. I'm not going to accept what "someone" feels I should have.

Your choice on how we go about this.

(me)


Her response:

First of all I am not assuming you want to see me, but saying that regardless, you can't be a regular presence around my house all the time now that I live close by. That won't work.
Second of all, I am consulting a lawyer about visitation, not some random person off the street. Yes, I get to see them during the week, but by the time I get home from work I get about and hour and a half with the boys each night and about two hours with Amanda. Add that up ray each day and see just how much time I really get to spend time with them!!!! So, no, it is not unbalanced, and if you want to spend time with the kids this weekend it is fine, but you have to have them back by 10:30 Sunday morning, that is fair.

What I want to respond to this:


WW,

The lawyer is going to tell you that this is worked out through mediation. If we can't come to an agreement in mediation, it then goes to trial and it is a lottery draw at that point and a gamble.

It is in our best interests to come up with something together. I will tell you know that I will not accept what some other lawyer says I should accept. It's called a visitation agreement for a reason.

Most states allow for a liberal visitation schedule when the two parents get along. As far as I could tell we were getting along just fine on Sunday, then you suddenly stopped contacting me.

Whether we like it or not we are going to be in each other's lives for the next 16 years, making decisions on these kids. It is in their best interests for you and I to get along and talk things out and come up with something we both agree with. Not only that, but we need to work on developing a friendship for them.

I'll be honest with you, I'm very disappointed that you feel this is the best path for us to take. We are supporting two separate households and all the bills that come along with that. If you and I found a way to put aside our problems or work them out, we could be living very comfortably and the kids would have both parents in their lives.

I don't see why this path we're on is somehow better.

I don't love you anymore. Not the way I used to. However, I would be willing to try in order to make a better future for our kids. It would require forgiveness on both sides, but if you think about this practically, it's in their best interests.

I'm sure this suggestion is out of the question to you, but I ask you to think about this: The money we're spending on separate households, bills, and even taxes could be money we put into college funds, items for the kids, insurance policies, retirement, and a real nice home.

I'm not approaching this from the romantic point of view, but the practical.

Just 9 months ago we were going to lunch together every single day. We would wake up and make love. We worked together at night to feed the kids and put them to bed. We took them to playgrounds and to the kids museum.

I remember those things and think that that life was so much better than the one we have now. I wish you could see that.

I read the letter you wrote me just over a year ago and still am dumbfounded as to where these feelings went. You stated that your love for me was deeper than I could imagine. You mentioned all the rough things we went through and how that made us come out stronger as a couple.

Where did this go? Why is this life now better than what we had then?

I was and still am a man willing to work on and address the issues you had in our marriage. Even willing to sacrifice the relationship with my family in order to give the children a strong father and good role model in their lives and have them grow up in an intact home where they don't have to devide their loyalties.

I urge you to look at them and think long term. The more time we're apart and not communicating, the deeper anger and resentment will grow on both parts. A lot has happened that has broken things on both sides. Yet, I'm willing to put that behind us in order to give the children a strong home.

I know we could do it if we both committed ourselves to making it happen and got help to do so.

We loved each other once, I think we could do so again. I urge you to not continue on this path. Statistics and studies show that this will not be good for the children in the long run. Please, think of them.

Please, lets stop this madness. The children deserve better. No one will love them as much as you and I. No one you meet, no one I meet will feel for them as we do. They deserve to have the people that love them most in this world getting along.

I really thought that at this point you and I would be at least on a friendly level and seeing each other regularly to hang out. Back in April I had hopes that we would be back together by our anniversary, and definitely by Christmas.

Now I don't think it will ever happen at all.

We can make the conscious decision to not go down this path. It will take effort, and work, and forgiveness, but if you think about the kids and we keep them as our motivators, we could do it.

You have made positive changes in your life. Things I had been hoping to see over the years. I have made many changes in mine.

I now have a very good job, my own place, and have even lost weight. It's a good company and a good salary that could give us both a good life style if we were together.

I have been willing to and am still willing to address all the issues you had problems with before. I'm asking you to please think of the kids.

No, I don't like clubbing, but it doesn't mean I couldn't try. Yes, I could have been more romantic, and I was willing to try. No, I would not tolerate someone disrespecting you anymore as far as my mother was/is concerned. I really wish these things meant something to you.

Please, WW, lets not continue this. It isn't good for the kids. I'm really trying and have been trying to be friendly and cordial with you, but nothing has worked.

Lets work together and just start small. At least tell me what it is that you want or how you see things playing out? I have no idea what role you picture me having in your life or the kids. I'm asking you to please not ignore me anymore and simply tell me the honest brutal truth about things. We can talk honestly and get everything out. There's things I need to share and I'm sure you have things you need to share. We throw it all on the table, get it out completely, forgive each other and at least make the effort to work to become friends again.

I know you think I'm crazy to suggest this, but we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying.

What do you say?

(me)

What are you trying to gain here? Are you trying to get time with your kids? Trying to get back together with your W?


You seem realy random and angry. Your proposed letters -- this one and the last one you had posted in another thread -- jump all over the place.


I think before you send any more messages, you should decide what you want, what outcome you're looking for. Then put a specific plan in place for getting there (there are lots of people here who can help!). Then follow your plan and keep your eyes on the goal.

The message you proposed, along with your last angry message, are not likely to make a WW want to consider reconciling....

Yes, I'll admit, I go back and forth on things. However, I didn't send the previous "angry" message that I previously posted on here.

My dilema is that reconciling maximizes the time with the kids and I have the security of knowing what kind of man will be in their lives.

However, she has already divorced and done a ton of damage to our relationship. For the kids, however, I want to ask her this before I get nasty legally, which is what's going to happen. I still want opinions on my response and if I should send it.

Yes, I want more time with my kids. If we stay divorced, I would prefer to be the primary custodian. I'm happy to settle for 50/50.

Papaof3

First, it's way, way too long. And, it's confusing (as someone else mentioned). On the one hand, it sounds like you're trying to reconcile with her -- on the other it sounds like you're ready to do battle.


Of course you should have your own representation but, if I were in her shoes, I'd be very, very concerned about you telling me I shouldn't have my own representation.

Are you suggesting (hoping for) mediation rather than court? That's what it sounds like but it's confusing. If that's what you want, then why not just suggest that flat out.

"If we can't resolve this ourselves, let's go to a mediator instead of through court."

Just leave all of the rest of it out!

It sounds mostly like a guilt trip with a bunch of disrespectful judgements thrown in for good measure. And, it really might hurt you in your custody chances, too.

This:


..is a real doozy.

I can't imagine any woman (or man) wanting to reconcile a marriage for financial reasons without romance. It may not be what you meant, but ... man.. it just sounds cold. "Come back to me because it's cheaper!" Yikes.


Well, sure. And those are valid concerns -- but, honestly, that's not really going to endear you to your wife. "Come back, honey. It's so much more convienent for me if we're together."

See what I mean?

If it were me, I'd keep it short and business like -- in anticipation for the nasty legal battle you seem to think is on the horizon. All that talk about reconciling for practical reasons is unlikely to make you appear the stronger parent.

Suggestion:


Dear Ex,

I am not satisfied with the weekend arrangment and I would like some time during the week, as well. If you don't feel we can work this out between the two of us, then let me suggest that we go through mediation before we go through court. I'm willing to work with a mediator to get this resolved. The visitation schedule I would like is: <detailed description of times and days>.

Please let me know if you think we can work this out together or if you think we need a professional mediator.



Mys

Don’t send the letter. This sort of thing is good to write in a journal, but don't send it.
You are still at the stage where you are searching for that one thing you could say, or do, that would make her wake up and see what she is doing. There is no such thing. That is why she is a wayward spouse - that is why we call it the fog.

The reality is this - she would see your longer letter, roll her eyes and say, "see, he just won’t give up. That is why I told him that he couldn’t just stop at my place any time he wants to. Just because I live close by, he will think that he can drop by whenever he wants.
And when you remind her of good times had, she will only remember that those good times are now gone. She will remember that it WAS good, but it isn't right now. And when you say "but you just wrote that letter a year ago!!" she will say something like "I was trying to make myself believe that back then. I thought I could make myself feel that way, but I don't"
I know - I have been there, and heard it. My WxH used to carry my pictures everyway to show people his wife. After he left he said he only carried my pictures to try to make himself love me, but it didn't work.

Also - your letter tries to convince her that you could have a good life, more money, and you can each see the kids more often, if only she would stay together. You are asking her to stay together for the kids and the money. Then you tell her you could be more romantic. Staying together for the money and the kids is NOT romantic. So that would back fire on you big time.

You have good advice here. Sit down, and figure out what YOU want. Do you want to fight for your marriage? If so, tell her you do not wish to talk about a D, you only wish to talk about how to build a better marriage.
Do you wand to fight for as much time with your kids as possible? If so, sit down and write up your plan. What you would like, and then send it to her. "This is what I would like" and let her respond.

I'll tell you the truth, in reading your letter, it sounds like you are trying to force her to sit down and talk to you about the kids visitation, but in reality, once you get her to sit down with you, you plan to talk about how it would better if you stay together for the kids sake.
Right now she does not want to talk about that, so quit throwing it at her.

The WS, in their fogged out mind, always believe that the kids will somehow be "better off" if mom and dad D so that they can go find happiness elsewhere. It isn't true, but the WS always convinces themselves of that

womanoffaith


I just want to mention that they're all ready divorced. I only say that because it might be in his best legal interest to get a fixed agreement at this point.

Mys

myschae, thank you very much for your advice.

Unfortunately I feel that the whole money thing is a practical way of looking at it. No, I don't want her back because it will be cheaper. I want her back because I want to restore my family and be with my children every day. I know what kind of man I will be with them. And money is a factor in the fact that all the money we're throwing into separate homes could be going into college funds for the kids or a mortgage for a nice house in which to raise them. It's more of the big picture for me.

Ok, I will revise it and I hear what you all say.

The reality is that she feels I'm just going to continue swallowing whatever she throws at me. She wants to consult a lawyer to find out what "typical" visitation is. I've tried to explain that there is no such thing as "typical" and that we will be sent to mediation.

Mediation is mandated in Maryland. She won't like what I will ask for because I will ask for 50/50 time with kids as well as every other holiday and vacation time so I can take them to see my family once a year.

Even typical visitation (every other weekend, 6 weeks in summer time, one dinner a week) is more than what she's willing to give me. I've tried talking to her about this but she won't budge. In the past, she has always used the, "if you keep pushing about this we're never going to be back together" argument to keep me under control.

Well, I see for myself now that there is no hope, not anywhere in the near future.

Yes, this is basically a last ditch effort to make her come to her senses. I already know she's not going to respond to this. But I have to try it before I finally am forced to take leagal action. She's backed me into a corner and left me no room.

She has already told me she doesn't want to go to a mediator because I will ask for too much.

She doesn't realize that if she doesn't work with me in mediation and it goes to court that I stand a very good chance to get even more than what I'm asking for. I've been preparing for a long time for this possibility. There's things I learned after we divorced that are huge.

Not only that, but my lawyer has told me I have many things going in my favor. The fact that I transitioned out of the military when all of this happened works in my favor. The fact that I moved here to be near my children will be seen very favorably. The fact that I live only 5 minutes away and have a job with flex time is also good.

I'm convinced that a psychiatric evaluation and the fact that she was sexually abused when she was 11 and has never been treated for this work against her. She bailed out of a perfectly normal marriage because of things like a mother in law that didn't like her and because I didn't like to go to clubs or wasn't, in her opinion, romantic enough.

She's also regularly left the kids with third parties so she can go out. The truth is that the nanny has been their primary care taker for 3 years. I have a lot of this documented and written down.

Again, thanks for the inputs. I'm going to change much of the message.

This is what I sent:

ex ww,

I am not satisfied with the weekend arrangment and I would like some time during the week, as well. There is no reason to deny me this when I live only 5 minutes away. Alternatively we could go out to dinner together, all of us, and can share the kids together if you would rather do that as well. It would be good for them to see us together in a cordial and friendly way.

I would like to have the kids for dinner twice a week during the week or for an overnight. Ideally, I would like 50/50 using 2,2, 5 but am willing to work up to that. Once we establish this, we can alternate weekends.

Another possible plan that is very popular is to have one house that the kids stay in all the time and the parents alternate living in the house every other week. We have two houses and there are things we could arange to make that possible as an alternative.

I'm throwing ideas your way and welcome your inputs.

If you don't feel we can work this out between the two of us, then let me suggest that we go through mediation. I'm willing to work with a mediator to get this resolved.

And no, you have them all week, I only get them weekends, I want to bring them back at night on Sunday. You're only giving me one full day with them since they will come on Friday night and go to sleep shortly after getting here and then you have me bring them back after they wake up on Sunday. That's basically only one day.

If you want more time with them during the week when you have them you should check with your job to see if they offer compressed work schedules or flex time. My company does.

Please let me know if you think we can work this out together or if you think we need a professional mediator.

(me)

Wow...what a great improvement, Papa! Well, until that third-to-last paragraph...still, respectful and honest up to that point...and after.

Just wanted to stop by with kudos...

LA

She is forcing me to pick them up at 7PM instead of 6PM and then bring them back at 1030 in the morning Sunday, instead of the evening. I told her I didn't want to do this but she said she would call the cops on me if I didn't bring them back by then.

She finally called and we simply argued. I let out my emotions, but it was mostly grief. I didn't yell or get mad but simply asked how this all disintegrated and if there was any chance of reconciliation for our children.

She said she can't stand me and that there wasn't. She only wants to deal with me in regards to the kids.

I hung up and cried hard. Rage, anger, despair, betrayal. All came out. I have come to realize that my last ditch effort to reach out to her before getting nasty legally was a failure.

Now, it all comes out. I will pursue contempt of court, 50/50 or primary custody. I'm dragging out the sexual abuse she confessed to me that she was a victim of and has never gotten treatment for. I'm bringing out the depression, anxiety attacks, phantom illnesses, taking herself off her medication without medical consent, and I will file for a psychiatric eval.

I hate that it has come to this, but I feel I have no choice anymore. I refuse to become a part-time parent.

You might want to read Mortarman's threads, or even call out to him. He just went through a custody battle for his kids, and did a great job.

The big thing right now is that you can't do this in a rage. You need to stop and calm down and put together a perfect plan. You've got to get control of your emotions and behavior, or you will be setting yourself up to fail.

There are specific steps you need to take right now, and you need a lawyer or someone to help you define the steps -- gathering the right documentation, establishing a pattern, logging all of her refusals to let you see or talk to the kids -- all things you'll need to do before you get anywhere near court.

And I suggest not comminicating at all with your ex unless you can do it in a totally calm, professional, emotion-less manner. You can bet that if she's talking to a lawyer, then she's probably going to be doing a lot of documenting on her own right now, and you don't want to give her anymore ammunition.

Calm down. Put together a plan. Be the one in control.
I'm sure MM can give you some better tips on strategy.

Thanks so much for your response. I'll try to contact him.

I know I need to stay calm through this process. It is the waiting period before it's settled that will help.

Rage isn't really what I feel when I talk to her. It's more like confusion, despair, and grief. I don't love her anymore, not like I used to. I have been slowly getting angrier and angrier as time has gone on and things have played out the way they have.

Last night was my last ditch effort with her. Once she receives the contempt charge, it's really going to be truly over and the gloves are coming off in terms of a legal battle.

I know I need to maintain my calm and be professional as much as humanly possible. I need to present myself to the court as the father I really am and let them see how much I value my children's presence in my life. This, along with the fact that I live less than a 10 minute drive away, will work in my favor as long as I keep my cool.

I'll see what mortarman has to say.

The second letter is much better. With all empathy, I will tell you what I see though: a controlling man. All of your letters and your posts here sound (to me) as if you want to direct everything - also, if I were divorced, I would not house-share with a controlling ex. And I do not understand what state would grant you a divorce without a parenting plan in place? Go through the legal process to get a visitation agreement ironed out, and do not bring up her past sexual abuse into the process unless it has a bearing on her present parenting behavior - she will forever hate you for it. Although I do not know much about your situation, I do know that many, many (if not most) women have been sexually abused at some point, and if this disqualifies us from being mothers or having custody, then most of us would lose our kids. From reading your letters, I'd have to say that I am a little afraid of you. I do not write this to hurt you or to be mean. I am just saying that I think you sound a little unstable right now. I know that greif can do this to a person, and when I was dealing with the trauma of an A, at first, I was probably a little unstable myself. Turmoil can do this to the best of us. What do you think about seeing a counselor to help you come up with a kid-centered visitation proposal? If a counselor helps you devise this, it might hold better weight in court.

I'm sorry you get that impression. I can assure you that I'm anything but. If there is one criticism that my family and friends have all consistently given me regarding my ex is that I allowed HER to control me through the years. She wanted to buy something but I didn't, we bought it. She didn't want my mother to visit, she didn't. I didn't want to go somewhere but she did, we went. I wanted time with my family but she didn't want me to spend it with her, I didn't go.

As far as the sexual abuse goes, no I do not believe that being abused disqualifies you as a mother. However, in her case, it makes everything make sense because she's never gotten treatment for it.

She has A LOT of psychological problems. Depression was a constant presence in our marriage. Inability to trust others ruined many potential friendships. Her way of approaching men and dating now is very indicative of someone who was abused as a child and never gotten treatment for it. She NEEDS the attention of men to feel validated about her sexuality. This ties into her abuse and her site shows that insecurity.

Seriously, my greatest weakness was that I gave in to all her demands through the years and didn't stand up enough. Same with the divorce. I simply rolled over and let her do what she wanted in the divorce.

I'm tired of being dictated to as to when I can and cannot see my kids. SHE was the WS, not me. SHE betrayed her vows and my trust.

When I describe my wife's actions through the years to mental health professionals that I've gotten counceling from, universally they ask me if I have ever heard of borderline personality disorder. She fits many of the characteristics.

I can tell you that whe I was married to her, she thought she had skin cancer, she didn't. Thought she had breast cancer, she didn't. Thought she had a brain tumor, MS, or some neurological problem, she didn't. Liver problems, non existent. Countless trips to the emergency room for these ailments, even ambulance rides, for what ended up being nothing more than anxiety attacks.

Throughout all of these things I stood by her side, trying to be supportive and understanding. I spoke to my leadership in each instance and they tried to help as much as possible, but after a while they felt I was crying wolf.

Please, understand, I'm not saying that victims of sexual abuse are bad mothers. But she's never been treated for her trauma, and her behavior falls in line with untreated sexual abuse. She bailed on a perfectly good marriage. I'm not blowing smoke or white washing. It was a genuinely good and normal marriage. I was happy with her and have letters from her written just over a year ago that told me she felt the same. Some from just a few months before I deployed. All praising me as a husband and father.

I hope I've clarified some of these things and am sorry if I have given you that impression.

I see better now, thanks. If I were you, then, I would start getting ready for court because in most states, mediation is not binding. To get ready for court, make sure that anything you write or say to her is fit to be given to the judge. This means, watch your mouth at all times, and in front of the kids, too. And keep a log, in your own handwriting, of everything that transpires, dates and times you speak, what the conversation was about, dates and times that you see the kids, a list of what you guys did, note anything that the kids' say that seems odd, note every time you call them on the phone - write everything down that you can. If she emails you, print those all out and keep them in a file and also pirnt out anything that you write to her. Also, try to keep the visitation and reconciliation as seperate issues as much as you can, otherwise this could hurt you in court - if she says you are just using the kids to try to reconcile with her, letters such as the one you first listed above will bolster her case.