When I married my first husband, my mother frequently reminded me that "marriage is forever", "there were 200 witnesses", "don't come home if you change your mind" and other such phrases. As a result, I stayed married to an incredibly abusive and manipulative man for 12 years. The best thing I ever did was to leave him and put all that behind me. I have since remarried to a man who is very good to me. BUT, my mother continues to make statements about how wrong divorce is, and just today sent me the program from my cousin's wedding praising the minister for stating that "divorce is never an option" during the ceremony. While I believe that divorce happens way too often, I also know that living with an abusive partner is far worse than divorce. My mom is very good at using guilt to her advantage....I guess I"m asking for some insight I can use in talking to her about this. Her background is Mennonite, so she is coming from a very strong religious tradition.

You don't have to come from a strong religious tradition to believe that divorce is wrong. I am an atheist and my parents were Unitarian, and I believe that the only justifications for divorce involve felonies - serious physical abuse, making/selling crack cocaine in your basement, taking up a career as a hit man, etc. You are not going to change her mind, because belief that divorce is wrong is a core belief that is as strong as any belief one can hold. One thing I admire about anabaptists is that they are typically not wimpy - they stand firm in their beliefs.

Did she and her Mennonite brothers and sisters confront your now ex-husband concerning his abuse towards you?

In other words did they confront HIM concerning the hardness of his heart that caused him to abuse you?

Did they try and remove and protect you from his lack of loving you as Christ loves the Church?

If not, then ask your mother why they failed your marriage,
by not having the men confront him for his actions against you and your children.

Agree with her.

Then ask her a "what if" scenario...

Mom - what if one day you hear on the news about a man who murdered his wife - beat her to death - and it comes out that the motive was that she caught him Sexually MOLESTING their sons - and that he'd been molesting them for years, and had abused them verbally and physically so that they were scared to tell her. It comes out in the news as this man's life is investigated, that he had previous charges against him of sexually abusing little boys...

And then the police show up on your doorstep and tell you that this un-named victim on the news was your daughter... who stayed because divorce is never an option...

What would she think - what would she do then? What kind of inner conflict with her Mennonite beliefs would she have, since those beliefs cost her her daughter's life and her grandsons are warped FOREVER?

Ask it to her like that - it may or may not soften her up. But my guess is that you haven't exposed your ex to your family.

Nellie

I have been reading here a long time and joined today because of your comments.


What, in your opinion, constitutes serious abuse?

I suppose you think that mild abuse is OK?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Excellent viewpoints in all the responses. I just wanted to reiterate what thornredrose said, how useful it may be in your situation.


(Excerpts follow from website Mennonite Confession of Faith - Conservative Mennonite Conference)
www.cmcrosedale.org/about/confoffaith.shtml

Function
The church is called to be a brotherhood under the lordship of Jesus Christ, a loving fellowship of brethren and sisters who are concerned for the total welfare, both spiritual and material, of one another. This concern results in the attempt to help the erring brother find the right path; it includes sharing generously both financial aid and the word of encouragement, and a willingness to give and receive counsel.

Discipline

We believe that the Lord Jesus has given authority to His church to exercise discipline. The purposes of discipline are to lead each member to full stature in Christ, to restore to full fellowship the members who fall into sin, to clarify for all members the meaning of Christian discipleship, to promote the purity of the church, to warn the weak and immature of the serious character of sin and disobedience to God's Word, and to maintain the good name and witness of the church before the world. In this work the church employs public teaching, private counseling, intercessory prayer, earnest warning and rebuke, and sympathetic encouragement. If disobedience persists, the church may withhold the right to commune until the individual repents. And the church must, with a deep sense of loss, recognize that the one who goes on to full apostasy and spiritual ruin has severed his relation with Christ and His body. The standard in church discipline is the Word of God as interpreted by the brotherhood. The entire congregation should share in the work of discipline and seek earnestly to win the fallen member.

ARTICLE 15. MARRIAGE AND THE HOME

We believe that at the beginning of human history God instituted marriage. He ordained that a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and that the two shall become one in love and mutual submission. It is God's will that marriage be a holy state, monogamous, and for life. It is also fully acceptable to God to serve Christ unmarried. Marriage was instituted for the happiness of the husband and wife and for the procreation and Christian nurture of children. Christians shall marry only in the Lord, and for the sake of spiritual unity in the home they should become members of the same congregation. The Christian home ought regularly to have family worship, to seek faithfully to live according to the Word of God, and to support loyally the church in its mission. We believe it is appropriate for parents to pledge themselves to the faithful Christian nurture of their children.

(emphasis added)



Thanks, thornedrose, an eye-opener. There's the potential for MANY to fail a marriage if we do not do our spiritual and civic/social part. In Anna's situation, this includes a Christian duty. For believers of other faith, agnostics, atheists...it can be an excellent lesson for all. If someone is aware of abuse within their "family structure"...good grief, CALL 'em on it! HELP, especially while having the opinion that people should just "stay married," no matter what, and yet not lending a hand to support one's OWN beliefs. What a cop-out, and skewing of responsibility.

The problem is, many within the church community fail to hold others accountable, mostly because they know THEY would also need to be held accountable for their own sins, and would NEED to make changes in their own lives.

It is the biggest failing within the church.

Serious abuse would be that which a jury of your peers would reasonably consider assault and battery - I have read of too many cases where one person claims the other physically abused her (or him) based on the slimess of evidence - a mild slap, or restraining them to keep from being hit. There used to be one male poster here who claimed his wife, who was half his size, was physically abusing him, even though he managed to tear a ligament or something in her shoulder.

Clearly if it is something that a parent would legally be allowed to do to a child (not that I am advocating physical punishment of children) then it can not be considered abuse if one adult does it to another.

Assuming your mother knows of the extent of the abuse, is she objecting to the fact that you no longer live with your husband, or the fact that you divorced him? In the scenario presented above, I doubt that very many mothers of any religion would want their daughter to continue living with someone likely to kill them or molest their children - but that doesn't mean that divorce is acceptable. There is another option - living separately, but remaining married. It happens occasionally among the Amish, and I imagine among Mennonites as well - if one spouse abandons the family and leaves the church the remaining spouse doesn't get to go get a divorce and remarry.

About 10 years ago, a schizophrenic Amishman killed his wife - he had either been in treatment or his relatives had been trying to get him in treatment; everyone knew he was insane, though not necessarily homicidal. I don't think anyone would have objected to having him committed; I did not read anything in "The Budget" that implied that anyone thought he should not be locked up. Just because divorce is not an option for the Amish doesn't mean they expect someone to actually live with a homicidal maniac.

I don't think Anna is treating this as a mennonite marriage, herself. It's her mother.

And even if she just seperated, without divorce, because of what someone else believes, that would remove the option of finding someone more suitable for her and the way she chooses to live. Nobody should remain with someone with this kind of potential, (legally or otherwise) ESPECIALLY where abuse is involved.

While the Bible says that God hates divorce, it also mentions some instances when it is allowed. I believe that it is only allowed when one spouse does something that is clearly sinful and voilates the marriage, such as adultry or abuse.

Sometimes well meaning Christians get hung up on things and miss the big picture. Point out to your mother that God loves us and forgives all sin. It sounds like you have a valid reason for a d, but she may never be able to comprehend that. Let her know that you have made peace with God on any issues regarding your D. Ask her to love and support you and your new husband so that your new marriage can last forever.

My understanding is that Anabaptists believe that there is no guarantee of getting into heaven - I don't think the "God forgives all sin" would fly with them. I assume that her mother does not believe that the "new marriage" is valid in the eyes of God.

Well, thankfully, what her Mother believes, is irrevelant. It's not her marriage. However, I do feel for Anna, knowing that it must be difficult for her to go against her Mother's wishes. But at least she, (Anna) has the courage to live her life the way she see's fit. AND to find the suitable man to be her husband.

Jennifer - We know. That is precisely why we were responding the way we did. Anna posted this:


You dismissed her Q, saying what her mother believes is irrelevant. We were offering insight for her TO be able to discuss this with her mother. I'm sure Anna wants to have a good relationship with her mother as well as maintaining her new marriage. Quite admirable.

Lucks, I'm sorry I wasn't more clear with my statement. It was actually in response to Nellie. Nellie only believes that divorce is acceptable in the case of a felony. And even then, I do believe that she thinks only separation would be acceptable, not divorce. (however, not sure on the latter part.)

So I was only defending Anna and supporting her decision of divorce. I wasn't intending to dismiss the main issue, here. I, too, hope that she will be able to maintain a loving relationship with her mother, and hope that her mother comes to accept her new marriage. I agree that she is in a difficult position.

Jennifer - Thanks for clearing that up.

Just continuing the same vein of conversation, I have great difficulty accepting that divorce is okay too. The irony is -- I've been divorced twice. The first marriage probably could have been saved if we'd availed ourselves of counseling. We didn't. My second marriage ended along the lines of what Nellie refers to -- an affair and cocaine use. I was trying to work through the affair, and gave up with evidence of the drugs. It was confirmed later that my Ex-H was fired from the club where he worked for selling drugs.

Way in the past now, but I feel my first divorce was wrong, my second quite necessary although a hundred times more painful than the first one. Since I've experienced different reasons for two divorces, I can see where Nellie is coming from.

Anna, during your first marriage, was your mother aware of how difficult things were?

Hey, Lucks. I had the same thing happen in my previous marriage. Affairs and drugs. I couldn't have just settled for a separation. He was truly on the road to a very dark place, and I had 3 babies in diapers at the time.

But we all feel differently in how we view things. I think Anna did what was best for her and her family. And I can only hope that things will resolve with her Mother. That would be a great loss, on both sides, if it's not worked thru.

Best wishes, Anna...

I"ve been gone, but thanks for all the great replies. I"ll clarify a little....my mother did, in the end, understand why I left my ex and eventually divorced him. She even "decided" that he had been unfaithful to me in some way and therefore it was "all right". (I think he might have been, but I don't know, and it was irrelevent anyway). However, I think she would have preferred I stay single and celibate; which I think would have been virtually impossible for me, especially after a nearly celibate first marriage.....no, she doesn't really know about THAT side of me. She does seem to accept and like my new husband and agrees that he's good to me (although she DOES point out the areas he's not perfect in); so I don't quite understand why she keeps bringing up this no divorce thing, nearly every time she writes or we talk. I don't intend to divorce my H, nor do I have any reason too. Yes, we have our issues at times, and he's got a bit of a quick temper, but he's really worked at that and I've seen results. So, why the bee in her bonnet?

As to why she and men from her church didn't confront my ex? First, when she married dad, she changed to the Baptist church as there was no Mennonite church nearby. I was raised Baptist. And, after I married my ex, we moved almost 10 hours away, so they didn't know what was going on at first, and I don't think the church elders would have gotten involved. Later, when we had moved closer, my dad did write a letter to the pastor of a church we attended, but when the minister tried to talk to my ex H, he insisted we move to a different church. It was always that way, as soon as my ex h was confronted he got angry at how "unchristian" the church was and we had to go to another.

My father, who strongly approved the idea of a new marriage for me, died about 3 years ago, before I met my now H. (about 3 months after my divorce was final.) He would have liked my H alot. Since then, mom has found a Mennonite church in the area and has been going there, and I have noticed her being less and less tolerant of other beliefs, even to the extant of feeling guilty and upset for having short hair!

Hi Anna,

I don't think I've ever posted to you before, but I'm a Mennonite and your situation definitely rings true to my own experience in many respects!

While there are lots of different types of Mennonites, I have found in my experience that some of the ones in North America particularly do guilt/passive aggressive behavior really, really well. I think it stems in part from the pacifism - if you've determined that violence is wrong, it can quickly turn into "conflict" is wrong, but how then do you air grievances?

Speaking from my own experience, there is often intense pressure to live up to one's particular Mennonite (cultural or religious) community's standards. This includes children - I remember being told that now that my father was a deacon in church, I was not allowed to ever run in church anymore. The reasoning was that if a person could not control his/her (okay, who am I kidding - "his") child, then he had no right to lead others in the flock.

I wonder if your mother is being pulled in two different directions - pressure from the religious community she identifies with who say that "divorce is always wrong" versus the feelings she has as a mother that in your personal situation, divorce was warranted. I suspect she has difficulty reconciling the two and so while in general she supports your marriage, she feels compelled to remain "faithful" to her church and has probably also internalized pressure to conform.

(I see this happen a lot, and not just within my own faith community - it is easy to be dogmatic about a particular belief until it actually affects you personally and then you are in a quandry where your beliefs are at odds with your experience.)

My advice (such as it is) is to remain gentle yet firm - reminding her of the details of your first marriage will hopefully help to assuage her conscience in terms of divorce in the first place while you also continue to affirm your choice of your husband. When you confront her about this (and by "confront" I mean gently but directly address the issue with her), try to avoid casting blame about the way her comments re: your first marriage caused you to remain in an unhealthy situation. There may well be time for that discussion, but when people feel blamed they tend to lash out. Tell her honestly how you feel and that you feel she brings the issue up a lot and ask why she feels compelled to do so.

Hard to predict the outcome, but at least you will know that you tried to address the issue the best you could.

All the best,

G

Thanks so much Griselda, I think you are absolutely right. I know the whole divorce was very hard on mom, as it violated so many of her beliefs.....my ex was very strongly "religious" and had at first impressed mom with his knowledge of the Bible. To learn that it was all an act was devestating to all of us. I'm still struggling with alot of it.....which is why I'd like to get over that hump with mom. We've never had as close a relationship as dad and I did, and maybe never will, but this guilt stuff doesn't help. I will try to find a way to talk to her and explain that I don't plan to ever get divorced again and any problems my H and I have we will work thru.

Thanks again, it really helps to have the perspective of someone who is more familiar with that culture and thought process.