As we move towards some kind of openness, FCH has a real sore spot with the 2 letters I sent to OW early in the affair. Not long after D-day, I was advised by a friend's mom, who had been an OW, to send a heartfelt letter. She said (at least at that point in her current affair marriage) that if she'd gotten something like that from the OM's BS it would have made a difference to her.

My letters were not mean or nasty. Basically, they said that I love my CH. I acknowledged problems and requested that OW butt out of our marriage so we could work on our problems. I never received any reply from OW. This was over 18 months ago.

In the past couple of weeks, the story of these letters has evolved. At first, H said that the letters nearly caused them to breakup. He said that he wished they had ended it. My RB was to reply that I wish they had, too.

Then after a week, the story became that after receiving the letter(s), OW said she was going to show them to the HR people at work and file for harassment against H. H said that he feared for his job but still continued the A. The RB to that was that it seemed like blackmail to me and she was equally responsible. Their company is filled with people cheating with other coworkers. There is hardly an intact marriage left.

Last night, the issue had mutated into me sending letters to deliberately hurt her children along with the sexual harrassment thing. He said that her children saw/opened/read(?) something. My RB was that perhaps OW should have thought about her children before screwing a married man, breaking up his family and introducing said man into her kids' lives. Did she believe there could be no consequences to her actions? This was not a malicious attempt to hurt her children. Has she not taught her children not to open her mail?

It looks like the fog comes back really deep sometimes. This issue keeps coming up. H has resentment. I calmly say that people who have affairs should accept the responsiblity and consequences.

Any MB thoughts or advice? I think we're going to have to have our counselor mediate this issue.

Harley thinks it a good idea for children to KNOW about the affair anyway, so it was not a bad thing that her children found out. What hurt the children was the AFFAIR and their mother conducting herself like a wh***. You had nothing to do with her decision to do that. If she didn't want her kids to know she was screwing a married man, then she shouldn't have done that in the first place.

Honestly, GG, there is nothing to mediate here. He is still very fogged out and resentful that you interfered with his affair. When he gets into recovery, he will get over it.

gg,

Let me give you an adaptation for your sitch (from a similar response I made to my husband): "Chere, if you wanted a woman who would sit back and let another woman steal her husband....ya picked the wrong gal! It takes a lot of strength and moxie to fight for love, and if I hadn't....then it would have been because I didn't love you. You're not the victim here, and neither is she. I hope you can recalibrate your thinking to put things in proper perspective soon because if we're going to start keeping score about who's suffered the most in all of this.....the race isn't even close. If you expect me to get "over" your affair....surely you can "over" a couple of letters?"

You guys are wonderful!!!!! These are exactly the words I need. H has long moments when he reenters the fog. He is angry over exposure. He still complains that I "told" his uncle. The typical reply is that it was none of the uncle's business. Fog, fog, fog.

In retrospect, every dealing I've had with slimeball OW she's threatened legal actions. Once when I called her (after catching H on the phone to her, in our closet, after we'd been to church), she said she'd call the police. Last summer, I caught them together in a parking lot. After H bolted and I confronted her. Well, I asked her name and she threatened to report me to the cops. She gets a letter, she threatens to sue. What wonderful coping and people-skills she has! Is that typical of OP?

star....i copied and saved your words above...in case my H and I ever have the opportunity to considr reconciliation because i think your words are awsome!

gg, eav.... We aim to please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So let me get this straight.

He is upset because you did not deal with his betrayal the way HE wanted you to deal with it....

He is still all about him, Grape. I think this man needs some more wake up calls. He needs to squirm a bit. He needs to feel he does not have you waiting on the side lines while HE makes up his mind how he wants the rest of the family to deal with his personal life unhappiness.

He may be a broken man, but he is NOT the center of the family universe. He needs a serious reality check! Recovery is hard enough as it is when the FWS is repentant and humble! These kind of conversations are a waste of valuable recovery energy.

You have already been through so much, you should not have to be in a position to defend your actions! So DONT!

Have you considered counseling with Harley again?

Now that FWH has gotten up the gumption to semi-come back, maybe he will be strong enough to dismiss his parents opinion about telephone counseling.

Is it me or what?

Doesn't Grape's H continue to have contact with the OW at work?


Doesn't he refuse to write the NC Letter?


Shouldn't it be first things first?


It took my H 6 months of real NC to come out of the fog.

Why is Grape seeing him as coming out of the fog at all?

Isn't this the WH who claimed..in front of his daughter..to have signed the divorce papers?

Why is he not a cake-eater?

How does Grape know that she is not enabling his A?


It sounds like he continues to tell you a lot of bullcrap..in my opinion...

Why not PLAN B until he met her conditions?

I'm frustrated by this and confused about what kind of PLAN Grape has to recover her marriage.

That's why I am not posting to you, Grape.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Grape,

You know when you have been out in the cold for so long that even cold water feels warm on your hands? Its as if he seemed so far gone to you that his present half-semi-effort must feel like he is trying to work on coming back.

From my FWS perspective,
TRYING to come back = meeting ALLLLLLLLL of BS list items along with a fair amount of groveling and a LOT LOT LOT of humble pie eating!

Anything less is just him trying to make himself feel better. Please dont confuse the two efforts, because they have two entirely different objectives.

And YES so long as he sees that woman, he is "IN IT".

If you settle for anything less than total NC, you are enabling him to think it is all about him.

MY BS helped me enormously by having high expectations of what I must do to earn him back.

Don't know if it's typical, but it happened recently to me. My exWS has been cake eating for awhile about reconciliation. I have totally allowed it. There is an OC involved. I was willing to accept and love the OC.

The OW had no idea that my exWS and I have had fairly regular contact. I'm not proud of what I've allowed, but I finally got angry enough to do something about it.

After not being invited to my former stp son's wedding last month (I have known him since he was 12. He's now 25), my heart broke and I went balistic. I'm quite certain the reason I wasn't invited is because the OW would have thrown a fit...literally. I hear she screams and hollars until getting her way. Of course, the very bottom line is that my exWS allows it. My former stp daughter had told me how a few months ago her brother was all upset because he didn't want the OW at his wedding...couldn't stand her. But, my exWS, she, and their OC live together. Of course she'd be invited.

I went into action, found out the address of where my exWS and the OW lived. Found a phone number. I'd never tried to locate these before as I was trying to let go.

While preparing to move, I found some old photos of my ex, his son as a baby, and his father. These were taken long before I came into his life.(1st marriage). I knew he'd want them, but I usually pass them on thru my stp daughter. Not this time. They were sent "anonymously" to my exWS at the address I "didn't know". Then came my phone call which he answered. One brief sentence about "seven years ago", which would have been the day we married. The next call I clearly identified myself, very upset, because I was losing the dog we had gotten together as an 11 week old puppy. I couldn't take her with me in my next move. He answered the phone this time, also. He never said anything during the calls.

I had no idea if the OW had connected the pieces yet or not. I then sent a scathing letter to my exWS about his settling for such a skank. I had always thought because the OW was so much younger (him 51, her 26) of course he'd want her. He denied several times that had anything to do with the attraction. The more I heard from others, however, that's about the only thing she had going for her. I really ripped the OW up one side and down the other to him. Asking him how he could settle for so little? I asked why he hadn't just told me that's the kind of "woman/girl" he wanted because I could never be her...thank goodness! This was so unlike me.....Ms."I accept and love others because none of us are perfect."

My return address was on the envelope but not my name. I don't know if my ex ever saw it. The OW was the only other person who would have gotten the mail. About 2 weeks later I get a letter from the OW telling me that "they had filed a police report on me and would file a PPO (Personal Protection Order) if I ever tried to contact them in any way ever again! Told me I would go to jail. That I needed to let go and let them live their lives in peace because my exWS didn't love me anymore...didn't want contact." A copy of a police officer's card with name and date was enclosed.

At first I panicked. Then I got mad! How dare that little b#&ch talk to me that way! I had done nothing that would have been grounds to file a police report. I did say I was going to make my exWS's life as uncomfortable as he had made mine. She or he had to have lied on any report. I wrote the OW back. By registered, restricted mail. Only she could sign for the letter...no one else.

I proceeded to tell her how involved "her man" had been in my life for some time. Told her all about their OC coming to visit my home on a regular basis. Told her all about the OC's developmental milestones, fav. toys, and that my family and friends had witnessed them at my house. I reminded her that while I wasn't proud of my behavior, she should remember that she was the one who chose to have an affair with my husband, knowing he was a married man. That she and I both believed him and put up with his lying, cheating behavior.

I then went on to tell her that police reports and PPOs go two ways. That I have a brother who is a police officer (which I do) who could assist me in writing a report against her. I told her that if I ever found out that anything reported to the police about me was a half truth, a total lie, had an important piece of information left out, etc., I would consider filing a lawsuit again her and/or my exWS for libel and slander of my name and reputation.

I reminded her that her signature for the acceptance of the letter was proof she had received it. I told her to never contact me in a harassing, threatening manner again or I would take whatever legal action was necessary.

I haven't heard back from her so far. Sorry this is so long, but I never cease to be amazed at how nervy some of these OW can be! Or how cruel my exWS could be...

What an evening. After dinner, sitting under the stars, H wanted to do more relationship talk. I stayed really quiet and let him do the talking.

The conversation veered down the usual paths. There's his great love...and yes, it had to be love, for OW but it was not about sex. (rolled eyes) Then it's how I'm a horrible, revengeful person for exposing him. This ramps into how much it upset his parents that I could have the nerve to tell his mother's brother. Why would I let this cat out of the family bag? H said that on that day, his pious, affair-enabling, Catholic mother told him that he should divorce me.

I stood up, firmly but quietly said, "Then do it." and walked to my bedroom. After 5 minutes, he came in and begged me to come back outside and start talking again.

It didn't take long to get back in the same mucky groove. H was back on me-track. Once again, I was the bad guy. The letters come up again and how I have deliberately tried to hurt OW's children. Just because I've taught our children to respect my privacy, like personal mail, why would I expect that from other parents? How I've kept our children away from him. Same ole all about me, CH stuff.

At this point, the words you've all given me came quietly but forcefully out.

"This is not all about you. I didn't ask for this. Our children didn't ask for this. OW's children didn't ask for this. Two people did this. You and OW need to own the pain you've caused. OW should have thought about her children before she f****ed a married man, before she brought you into their lives. How could her children not think poorly of her or YOU?"

I continued using the words ML and Starfish gave me. Then I shut up.

H was shocked. The words seemed to actually sink in. There was a different tone to our conversation after that. Not enough humble pie but more than before.

I know there should be NC. FCH is not where he can write a NC letter yet. And, yes, it bothers me a great deal and I do know that there cannot be recovery without NC. I cannot put the pen in his hand. Only H can do that. So much of H's identity is tied up in his work. He sees his work as the big thing. Seeing her is coincidental. We MB-ers know better.

Meanwhile, DD anxiously asks me if everything is going okay with Dad. I say I'm trying but it's difficult. I try to be realistic and not get her hopes up. I think she's heard too much. I fear for her.

In 3 days, DD and I leave for 3 weeks. We will be in Plan B darkness during that time. We'll see after that. The forecast still seems to be for heavy fog.

GG, do you have Surviving an Affair?

Grape - I am really at a loss here as to why you are talking to this man at all. You posted a while back about how he dropped the D-bomb on you out of the blue, and now he is still doling out little crumbs while you keep up the hope that maybe someday he'll change.

Have you read the links in my sig line? One of those threads is still quite active over on the In Recovery board. I really wish you would join us there. I think your Cheating Husband very much fits the description of a Passive/Aggressive, with a heavy emphasis on the Passive.

Please join us. I think you will be amazed at what you see there. I can't tell you how much it's helped me. It all makes sense now.
Mulan

Mel:

Grape has been here for a long, long time...

Knows about the PLANS.....

Has even had sessions with Steve H..

And seems to be ignoring the principles of MBers...

She baffles me...

It hurts me for Grape that she believes this..that her words are sinking in...

I think it is that he gave her so little for so long that his crumbs mean so much to her...

YUCK...

My hunch is that the OW broke it off with him and now he is groveling to come back to Grape...

I know. But I don't understand some of her baffling statements, Mimi, and it occured to me that she might have never read up on the plans!

GG, I don't understand what you are doing. You were in Plan B at one point and stipulated that you would only resume contact if he ended all contact. That has not happened. I am confused about why you are subjecting yourself to this FOGHORN and doing nothing more than forfeiting any leverage that you once had.


huh? Going out of town for 3 weeks is not Plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hon, what are you doing?

Mel:

I know. I know. I'm confused by Grape.

She seems intelligent.

I've never been fond of saying this but:

Grape, you seem to be IN THE FOG yourself.

Where/what is the LOGIC in what you are doing?

There's no such thing as IN and OUT of PLAN B...ON PURPOSE...as part of MBing...

So are you doing PLAN A now?

It's not RECOVERY because you know that he still has contact with her.

This seems to be Grape's OWN PLAN..which as we all know based on our own experiences....NEVER WORKS...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I could not agree more. This is exactly what has happened here.

Lm

And another thought...

He will probably spend the three weeks while Grape is gone..trying to reconcile with the OW ...if he is not already with her on the side, as usual...

And what about this?

Did he get scared about the financial consequences of a D from Grape..alimony, child support, etc....?