I dont have any place in answering this question personally. Though I have seen my own BS struggle with this--he has said he felt like a weak person for staying. Like someone who was not defending his own dignity.

It was so ironic to me at the time though, to hear him say that, because his actions struck me to be the opposite of weakness and to be the utlimate act of dignity. Staying and fighting in the face of such evil was an absolutely heroic sign of loyalty and integrity in my eyes.

Ahuman, I think all BS would join me in saying we pray our own FWS feel the way you do.

I think perhaps MB-literate FWS like you would understand the efforts involved from the BS rather more than a non MB literate FWS like Squid.

bob, a great thought provoking question as usual. Although I am approaching Plan B in a couple of weeks I am starting to second guess my commitment to saving my M.

Like you, there is a part of me who wants my WW to crawl back and beg for forgivenss. I know many WS are incapable of swallowing their pride to stop making excuses for their actions and treeatment of the BS (at least initially).

As I enter Plan B I find myself asking myself if I would want my WW back after her betrayal and perpetual indignation. The day I discovered her PA via a voice recorder in her car, she was at her worst. She said she did it to "hurt" me and I'm not sure I can ever forgive her for that. So now when she tries to justiy her actions by blaming me, that is all I can think about.

I sometimes wonder if I would have been better off to throw her out of the house when I found out. Instead I may have wasted a year of my life trying to save something that was inflicted with a mortal wound.

Send me, sorry to hear you are struggling. I wish you the best!

HTW

I am sometimes angry at myself for staying far too long. I should have done a 3 month less plan A and then followed by simultenous plan B and divorce. He needed some hard hits. It was and is the only things he responds to.

But in the end, I wonder now why in the world did I even WANT TO RECOVERY WITH HIM? The WS never repented. He got worse. He never changed.

I didn't recovery my M, but I recovered myself. He's a jerk and isn't worthy of ANY WOMAN ON THIS EARTH.

I don't regret my decision to at least try and put forth the best effort for my family.

The peace is what I am rewarded with now. Peace of mind knowing I did all I could have done. Although hindsidht is 20/20, and I'd have done a shorter a and more harsh plan B, I did pretty darn well.

But no, sometimes it haunts me that I should have ended it earlier...pulled the plug actually six months before. Not gone on "extended life support" in my M.

I think Pep said it quite well...


I feel the same way.

-HD

Bob - wow.

I do not regret having spent the energy and time that I did trying to save our M. At this point I have learned that obscure reference in one of Dr. H's books - about how continuing to put into trying to heal the M helps you burn out the love as quickly as possible. Then, when the D occurs, you are a long way toward recovery already. Here, only 4 months out, I am looking at XW's life, and I see how our M even fits into a pattern in her life. I took my ring off two weeks after the D, with certainty.

Still - I will always believe that it would be best for our children for us to work it out and stay together. I believe that we could have a relationship that could be fantastic. I will not regret it someday, if it comes out of the ashes.

But I believe that I settled for less than I deserved the day I said "I do".

XW said to me that she felt God had made her a virgin again. She truly felt His forgiveness that much.

But she brought a lot of baggage, and I was very naive at the time. I do not regret our M, or our life together. I LOVE MY KIDS WITH EVERY FIBER IN MY BODY!!!!

But it may work out best for me to go down the path I now walk. Alone.

I admire the sucess in your M. I believe that God can heal anyone - any marriage. I know that He can even still heal mine. And he might. I wonder if Dr. H was speaking prophetically to me when he said: "you will have a better chance in 5 years of making something work with your ww than you have now."

We will see.

Thanks for the question to chew on.

far

BS: Have you forgiven yourself for staying in the marriage after being betrayed?


I don't feel I have to forgive myself for anything.

I am not the one who betrayed my self or my spouse.

I wouldn't have been able to forgive my self
if I HADN'T stayed.

Of course I haven't been going through the drama for years and there wasn't multiple A's.

Just my opinioon on a great question.
Blind

Bob, I think my answer is mostly, pretty much, yeah.

Basically ever since June of last year, when I totally seized control of my life back, I have not felt like I was settling, or being settled for.

I improve with time, but especially at first I was as antsy as an unbroken filly, ready to bolt and run from him at any moment. The only thing that held me in place was knowing that I could go, and he could not stop me. (And that I would not stop myself.)

That freedom has helped me ever since. Each moment of each day, I am with him only because I want to be. He is with me only because he wants to be.

So there is little left to even forgive. By and large I am proud of me. (We are all proud of you, too.)

Bob,
This a great thought provoking question. I have enjoyed reading everyone's responses.

I haven't thought about forgiving myself because I viewed this M as a lifelong commitment. I've stayed faithful and loyal to WH. I've improved upon myself a great deal by staying in this M. I have worked on my own faults and weaknesses that led to the destruction of our M. If I had left this M upon d-day, I would have probably repeated a lot of the same mistakes in my next relationship.

Although I've had some really low moments in this experience but I have a greater peace of mind knowing that I am doing all that I can as a determined wife. If my M doesn't recover, at least I will be a better woman and wife to my future H.

Bob...

Sadly, for me, the answer is no. In fact, I wish I had bolted after the discovery of the first online EA. Now, I wish even more, I'd have left my marriage after I discovered the last EA/PA, not to mention the EA that oozed out of the closet that took place 35 years ago, which I didn't discover until I was investigating the EA/PA.

However, that said, it's a double edged sword. Although I remain in a marriage I'm not happy with, I am a far better person that I was before. I made a host of positive changes as prescribed by Plan A. I am a much better, more sensitive, more thoughtful, more informed marriage partner.

But... Like many other BS's here, I have never seen the appropriate amount of remorse from my W. I have never seen the appropriate amount of asking for forgiveness. I have never seen the appropriate amount of motivation to learn about the WORK a marriage needs, and have her show any interest in carrying half the load. I still see signs of the "entitlement" that led to the affairs int he first place. That is not to say I doubt her "faithfulness" right now, I don't. And she says she'll never do it again, and that just might be true. But she's never engaged back into the marriage as I felt would have been proper and reasonable.

I have forgiven her for the A's, I truly have. What I can't get past today, is that she chooses not to fully engage in our marriage. There's no love emanating from her heart, and it's like living with a room mate. There is a serious lack of intimacy, and frankly, I've fought off thoughts of leaving the marriage. In fact, if we had not become financially encumbered helping a son out of a financial mess he got himself in to, I might very well be in the process of getting a D.

Is my life miserable? No. But it's lacking what I need most of all, and that is the intimacy and caring one should receive from a spouse. I'm giving it some more time, with only a half-a$$ed effort from me to keep things civil, but when my son gets a couple of his houses sold, and we are back flush financially, somethings got to change.

What that is, I'm not quite sure...just yet....

SD

I agree with Eve. There is nothing to forgive.

It seems such a strange question to me. Forgive MYSELF for what?
I'm not very big on hanging onto guilt - and for me, this just seems weird. To feel guilty for trying and failing?

Failure is one of the best teachers in life. If I had not tried to save the marriage, I might feel guilty about that, but I would never feel guilty for trying.

The entire marriage was the most painful and difficult period of my life - but I don't consider it a mistake. And I certainly don't regret the extra 3 years I lived with my child while giving my wife chance after chance, only to be lied to and cheated on again and again.

No, I don't regret it - and I can't even imagine feeling guilty about it.

Maybe I missed something, but I think I'm just not wired that way.

-AD

What an awesome question that really keeps bringing me back to where my WH and I are - apart and on the brink of D.

A Christian song has the phrase in it "When the sacred is torn from life and you survive". That speaks volumes to me. The As and, in my opinion, double-standard Rs w/other women have taken the innocence from our M. Kind of like when a child is molested. That child is never the same.

That may be a bit harsh to some but it's how I feel. His actions took away the specialness from our M. His continued actions have driven me farther away.

So I perfectly understand your question. Have you forgiven yourself for staying in a damaged M where the walls surrounding it have been breached and will/may never be as strong as they once were. Were you stupid for staying after such a betrayal? You will never be able to look at your spouse again and know that since the day you met them no one has been w/them the way that you have.

Those are the things I keep going back to. If I stayed I think I would forever fear that IT would happen again b/c it has happened more than once and at low points in our R.

No, I have not forgiven myself. I've talked about this with our MC - she has more than once suggested that my resentment derives from anger at myself for taking H back, and not (entirely) from anger with him.

I understand entirely the sentiment of "I made it too easy for him/her to come back" - I did that the first few times we tried to recover. By the final time, it was a pretty steep slope he had to climb. Even then, I still accuse myself of being weak (so Bob, I'm not sure that you'd feel less as though you'd betrayed yourself even if you *had* made it more difficult for Squid).

I don't think recovery has been "wrong." I think it is a good thing for my H (particularly if the path he'd started down with OW was followed for much longer). I know it was a good thing for our children. Unfortunately, I was a happier/better/healthier person when we were apart, and the recovery process has set back/slowed my personal development.

So in that sense, I have a difficult time forgiving myself for getting back into a situation that, in many ways, presents roadblocks to personal health that I would otherwise not have had to face.

I'm hoping it's a "time" thing and that as H proves himself, I'll come to admire him more and will forgive myself (a la Melodylane).

G

Forgiving yourself???? Not sure if, ever, there is an instance in one's life that that is a pertenant question. We all make decisions every second of our life...and we make them with the information, values and beliefs that we have AT THAT VERY MOMENT!! If we ever feel we need to forgive ourselves, it means that something has changed from that previous moment. And all of the above are NOT really controlled by our conscience.

In other words, we are slightly different people at every different second of our lives! So if we choose to "forgive" ourselves.......we are essetially forgiving "someone else"...that we used to be...

Maybe I should be a philosopher!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MWIL

BS: Have you forgiven yourself for staying in the marriage after being betrayed?

See that's a loaded question based on a false premise - the premise being that it was the wrong thing to do to take the FWS back after thrie betrayal.

I don't think I have anything to forgive myself for.

Personally, I would never have forgiven myself if I had given up on my marriage and family without a fight. I don't think the destruction of my family nd the hapiness and security of the future of my kids could be so easily disguarded.

We are however only 10 months into recovery.

I do not believe any BS has done something wrong, and needing forgiveness, and yet that does not change the feeling that some (like me), but not all of the BS's, sometimes struggle with whether they have done the right thing by taking their spouse back.

Since most of the times I have felt that way have been when there were no current problems, and my FWH was being very tender, caring, and transparent, that kind of indicated to me that the problem was inside me, and not a fault within him, not exactly. Yes, he is totally to blame that the feelings are there, since it all stems from his betrayal, but nearly all of it seems to come from that past incident, and nothing in the present.

So I would venture to guess that as long as current problems are not provoking this reaction, it's probably ok. If there is a current problem, the feelings indicate that something needs delving.

What an interesting bunch of replies !

I find myself able to empathise with MANY different, even contradictory viewpoints here. Clearly with kids involved attempting recovery is the right thing to do, but the right thing to do doesn't always FEEL like the right thing to do.

In my own case I could not IMAGINE a better outcome for them from their moms infidelity. And both Squid and I are pretty happy most of the time. My efforts paid off big style, but I still feel I accuse myself that I didn't deliver some retribution. I have said barely a spiteful word in two years to Squid. Great, creditable etc etc but it I still feel like a pushover sometimes.I have to work on forgiving myself for that, even thoughit was the right thing I did. I know...doesn;t make sense !:)

The replies that give me most hope are the "yes" ones. They imply that those respendents also at one time questioned their remaining in the marrige, but now have come to a place where they no longer do. Thats a good place I hope to get to one day.

I can fully understand the extreme doubt and torment of wondering whether a BS did the right thing by agreeing to stay in a marriage with a FWS.

First, most people have said at one time or another, "Hey, if my spouse cheats, it's over! I'd never put up with that stuff!"

Oh . . . yeah . . . well, that turned out to be a lie, didn't it?

You DID put up with it, at least one sense, didn't you? So, instead of being a strong man/woman who takes a stand against cheating, you've accepted it by staying with the one who did it.

Second, I think there is always the very real fear that if the BS stays with the FWS, that means the FWS Has Gotten Away With It - and if they have, why shouldn't they do it again?

You forgave them once. Why shouldn't you forgive them again?

What's to stop them from doing it again?

This can eat at a BS/FBS for a very, very long time - maybe forever.

"H*ll, I turned out to be such a damn pushover, why shouldn't they do it to me again? What's to stop them? What consequences were there for the first time?

"I always said I'd leave, but I'm still here. Why shouldn't they do this again?"
Mulan

Yes, and I would venture to guess that the tollerance level of a BS with kids is much greater because they are constantly thinking of the kids best interests. Personally, if it wasn't for my kids, I would not even be trying anymore. I find it incredibly sad how the WS can justify their actions, especially when kids are involved.


I think most of us BS's can empathize with your need for retribution. This is what makes Plan A so difficult as it requires a different approach to dealing with our pain and hurt. Normally, such betrayal would produce AO' and DJ's as a way to deal with the anger and as a relief from these feelings of frustration.

I don't think I need forgiveness for anything I've ever done with regards to my xh.

And if I gave up without a fight for my child, I'd be imho a coward.

Becoming an instant statistic. I have a coworker now who is entrenched in a bitter divorce proceeding b/c he discovered his W in an affair. He immediately threw her out, put house up for sale, and began custody proceedings wtih an attorney. He never questioned anything. Never tried to heal the M, he just saw her infidelities and lies and after their d day, he filed suddenly.

I tried to talk him down. Tried to get him to try at least MB. He was stalwart. Would not live or stay with a WS.

Those were his words. And I am sad for him. I want peace for him and his child. I told C that, "You have to have the peace someday knowing YOU DID ALL YOU COULD DO FOR YOUR BOY. FOR YOUR M BEFORE YOU GIVE IT UP." He would not do it.

And I worry about folks like that...who on the spur of the moment, in a heat of anger file for divorce without clearly spending time to think things through or think of possibly just one other outcome?

For me, being a good mom first, then peace and being able to live comfortably with my actions are and were the ultimate goals...when the affair reared its ugly head. Kinda like "jaws"...