shattered dreams:
Your situation sounds OH Too Familiar, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Not currently cheating (knock on wood) ......but only a Token effort at changing.

Perhaps that attitude was enough PRE-affair .......However, not Satisfactory by Far after having taken the plunge!

Mulan,
I actually know of MORE then One guy friend who's been bewildered that this Exact scenario you lay out, has NOT worked for them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

They cheated, were forgiven/taken back --- and their BS tried to make it work.
They then proceeded to cheat again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

BS said ENOUGH, and was done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Both of them actually said,
{paraphrase}
"Well, she forgave me before and we worked it out .......why wouldn't she this time"???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

DUHH!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Talk about being clueless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.....but sadly this IS the mentality of a WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
{And No, you don't have to be currently *Boinking* someone else to STILL have this particular screw loose}.
Its the mentality and attitude that leads to the actions.

Unfortunately,
the entitlement and the selfishness just doesn't go away ..........NOT without much Work that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Unfortunately,
FEW are really willing to change. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />(fundamentally}

So if your S IS one that is HERE and IS doing the work .......praise your God every day for that unique blessing in your life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bob:

Great question...you little devil....you drew me out of retirement and back onto the board with this thread.

The honest answer to the question is: NO

But, I am getting there. I don't know if I ever will 100% forgive myself for taking her back and being gullible enough for it to happen again. I am happy I gave it a "chance"....and didn't do waht I wanted to do when I first found out.....that was important for me to not make an instant decision...BUT, in reality....I still harbor some anger at myself for "letting it" happen to me again. I chose to try and reconcile, so in effect, the fact that there was a false recovery and second chance for infidelity is on me. I chose to reconcile with a cheating, morally corrupt woman...hence I only owe the final outcome to my own choices. I am about 100% personal responsibility in life. I hold NOONE responsible for things that happen to me beyond my control. If i didn't want to risk a false reocvery, I could have CHOSEN to get divorced and walk away after the first time. I didn't, hence the outcome of what happened to me was certainly within my control.

I can live with that....but I hope to someday forgive myself completely. I have forgiven the Wayward wife...and am getting there with myself.

I can say that I am closer to personal forgiveness than ever before. Hope to be "completely" there someday.

Good post.

L

top rope said...

"So if your spouse IS one that is HERE and IS doing the work .......praise your God every day for that unique blessing in your life."

Even if your spouse isn't "here" on the MB board, but it at least making some effort in understanding why they did what they did, and are willingly taking steps to change their thinking and their behaviours to make them a better partner in an already damaged marriage, then, be very thankful.

My W, it seems, is the poster child for Lemonman's famous quote "Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it."

Thanks for the post, top rope!

SD

i'm surprised that having children seems to be the reason why so many people decide to forgive....

for me, this is about my feelings about the man i fell in love with and spent many, many wonderful years with.....

we have no children....and my answer is still as i posted above




is it that without shildren, many people would not choose to forgive and try to reconcile?

Eav:

I don't find that suprising at all.

I am interested to see which people here will honestly answer your question above. I think that children play a very SIGNIFICANT role in whether a BS chooses to try and reconcile a marriage with a cheater. Yes I know about vows, and committment and all...and no doubt there will be a large number of people (BS) who say that having children was not the major reason, etc.....but....well, I will leave it at that.

Lem

If I did not have my ds, the decision to divorce after say, three to six months of repeated infidelity followed by absolutely no repentance on his part, I would have filed for divorce.

I say that without hesitation.

Keeping my FAMILY intact was my primary goal. Aside from healing my M. If we had not spent so much time, planned our child, built our dream house, and were actively at the time of discovery of the affair TRYING TO HAVE YET ANOTHER CHILD, I'd have bolted within a 6 mos. time frame forever from it.

Again, as I posted on Orchid's somewhat related site, there are man's legalities of marriage and also God's laws.

I stayed longer because of my spiritual beliefs and my desire to have an intact family.

But had I chosen, if I had not had my ds, to divorce, I also had spiritual grounds to do so.

You choose what you desire to accept. Period. End of story.

So many here need to come to terms with their decision.

I have peace with mine.

Sure hindsight is 20 20, but I am at total peace with my decisions to pursue healing and forgiveness first before prematurely jumping the gun into divorce as my coworker did.

But if I had no kids? I can't say I'd have stayed even nearly as long nor could I truly say if I'd stayed with him at all. Maybe a short plan A followed by plan B. Definitely less than 6 mos I could assure you.

I wrote a nice long response, only to lose it to the stupid "form no longer valid" error that's popped up since the last forum upgrade, grrrr!

So here's the short version: I don't see that there's anything to forgive. I still believe that I chose the best option that was open to me at the time - to stay and try to recover our M.

Yes, the special connection that I thought was in place between myself and my FWW is gone, and yes there is the possibility that it might never return (which means that it's possible that another difficult choice lies ahead of me several months from now), but I think that I made the correct choice to stay and try to recover it, rather than leave, creating even more damage.

My advice: don't dwell on the "what-could-have-beens" but rather focus your attention on the "what-could-bes". It's taken me a while to learn this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I like that, ManInMotion.
It sounds simple but it's quite an interesting challenge.

Me, me, me, me, pick me!

Lem, my children, and the desire to keep their home intact if possible was almost my sole motivator. The "do it for luv" lasted about a month or two.

By the end, the children were not reason enough to keep trying. I had no reason in the world big enough to keep me trying, and was completely fed up.

It was only AJ's substantial efforts at that point that kept me there. Yes, I was willing to give him one more chance, but would have also CHEERFULLY divorced him in a heartbeat. (He may have sensed some of this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Now I keep working (even when it's a struggle) about equally for love as for the children. Reminding myself that I can still walk away any time I choose to.

I'll answer both ?'s, since there seem to be two now.

Forgiven myself?
Hmm...I have asked myself from the beginning this question in my own sort-f way.

I can say that I am 100% glad I gave the marriage the chance I did. I knew my limits, though, and I stand by them. I am also about taking responsibility for all of my actions, and I knew that if I had walked away without a fight, I would have always wondered what-if.

I also will be honest and say that I could not do a full MB plan and give plan B two years--I know it has worked for many, but for me, it was not a rigth fit. There is some personal dignity--not self-pride, but basic God-given"ness"--that I would not give up for my WS.

To me, I tried and tried. He continued to manipualte and maiunipulate, emotionally and verbally abuse me. I am not of the train of thought that "no matter what I will be here waiting." If there is not line that is ever drawn--no enough is enough--then I for sure would have no sense of who I am in Christ--in the sense that God wants good things for me too. Not just fo my Marraige or my WH--but for me, Intexas. I think I at first was of the mindset that I would do anything and sacrifice anything to keep this intact. And while I would NEVER have wanted this to be the outcome, at this point, it is the only choice. ANd I can walk away knowing I have it my all. ANd now, I even know that one day I am gonna know what it is like to be treated well, and that is such comforting thought.

As for the second question--my vows were my first motivation, and the second is my children. If the children were not in the pic, I am not sure if I would have held on for dear life this long. I felt I owed it to them to give them the family life I had always thoguth they would have.

For the record....my reconciliation and subsequent recovery was NOT because of my children. I firmly believe that it needed to be all about her and I and it was. As we reconciled we did more things together as a family but the boys really just thought that we were "friends"...


So as in everything else that we did it remains unorthodox....

Bob,

In hindsight, I still do not forgive myself. When I think about it, I don't know what else I could have done. I did not want anyone else being any sort of father to my two children; therefore, I kept her and raised her OC as a daughter whom I love also.

My problem is that my 1st wife never changed, and when the children were 18, 16, & 11; she left us all to 'find herself.' I guess she is still looking 25 years later. From what hear, she has been maiired 4 or 5 time since, and is now living alone.

I feel good that I tried to keep it all together, but like a fool for not tring to think of another way of handling the situation. Therefore, I sometimes don't forgive myself.

Man In Motion:

OT- already talked about this in lenth on the other thread, but just wanted to give you a tip about that nasty "no longer valid" stuff....

You use your back button after you get that message, which should bring you back to your post. You then highlight it and right click which gives you the cut and/or copy option, click on one of those, then hit your back button again which will bring you back to the thread and you just hit the reply key on whatever post comes up (it should be the one you were replying to anyway) and the empty reply box will come up and you then just right click on the empty box and the paste option will come up...click paste and there you go!! It has worked for me. Good luck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

bob,

You are a genius!!!!!

This has been what has been missing this whole time.

As I have traveled this path since D Day I have had one heck of a journey and it all makes sense.

I hadn't forgiven myself for staying. I am working on it now. I have gone over the last 3 years and I realize that I kept looking for reasons from the FWW to help me forgive myself.

Now I realize I don't need anything from her to forgive myself.

If for nothing else I can say I gave it everything I could and it didn't work. She betrayed me and my family and I still tried.

Every time she crossed a boundry like it was no big deal I couldn't understand why I was so upset. She was making it harder for me to forgive myself. She crosses every boundry and I am here still.

But in all actuality whether or not this M lasts I have now forgiven myself because I did the right thing by me, my son's and most importantly my Heart.

Bob you genius.

I forgave myself this weekend and I am feeling better then I have in a long time.

Don't know if I can forgive her but me I DISERVE IT.

Well, here i am, I've finally joined the forum. I am(or my situation is) I guess what you could call one of Dr. Harley's frustrations.
I don't quite know how to answer this question. My grandparents taught me that if you make a promise, keep it no matter what, and the two most important promises are marriage and parenthood. I struggle with that every second of every day. It is my deepest instinct and desire to keep fighting, despite "getting bitten by that dog every time I try to touch it". On the other hand, the blinding pain and horrific rage split my soul in two.
Here's a summation of my story.
She left me two years ago June. She met him while & months pregnant with our son, which is our third child. We have two girls, 8 and 5, also. She met him over the Internet. I found out from our oldest child 4 months after it started.
I was never abusive, violent, or controlling. As far as I can surmise, my only crime was going to school for 8 hours a day and working a full time job as well, the old "when the cat is away" scenario.
He is an alcoholic, controlling, verbally abusive, porn addict flea market owner in Sleepy Eye, MN.
When she left, she took the children with her into that horrible atmosphere.
A year later, thing weren't going so rosy for her, so therefore she had me move to New Ulm from North Branch. We found a house to buy, I found work, and my hopes were up. However, she still hasn't stopped with the affair, and treats me as if I were a roommate and babysitter, not at all as what I really am; a crushed betrayed husband.
She acts as if she does not want to work on our marriage for our sake, the kids' sake, or for any other reason. Whenever I offer to give her what she apparently wants; the divorce, she holds the kids over my head and calls me selfish when I ask her about working on us.
As I sit here in tears at the keyboard, she has told me she is going to work, when earlier in the day she told me she didn't have to work tonight. She acts as if I have no reason to be hurt or angry. If I asked her whether or not she is still seeing him, she would lie to my face, and not bat an eyelash while doing it.

Forgive myself? I don't think it's possible. I believe that unless I can somehow be granted a miracle from God's mighty, grace filled hand, the damage I have bestowed upon our children by allowing them to see the constant pain I am in, as well as continuing to let them learn the wrong lessons about life shown by their mother's conduct will be far too great to repair. And as a product of a broken home, I can attest with all the confidence in the world that children are not as resilient as their parents think they are, and they do not adjust; the are scarred for life. My struggle is not only because I still love my wife with all my heart despite the affair, or because of those values instilled by my grandparents, or even my desire to keep my promise to God, but to try my damnedest to keep from letting our kids grow up the way I did.

Hey 'jacket !

I've started a thread for you so you can get the help you need outside of this abstact question thread, OK ?

It's not about regret, I am really having a hard time forgiving myself for accepting my own betrayal of my deep and strong values.

Not facing, or realizing that this self forgiveness then needs to be done, builds resentment exactly because I have done nothing wrong, and my FWS is "forcing" me to betray my inner beliefs, morals and values, is "forcing" me to cope with dishonesty.

If I rationalize I KNOW I am doing the right thing, trying recovery... for me, my girls, my family, but deep inside... there's this dark feeling.

And might be the cause for many "anonymous resentment" (as Bop Pure called it) some BS feel even after many moths in recovery.

In my case, I recently realized, this is stopping me from really starting/be in Recovery.

Honesty is one of my EN.
My father was a serial cheater. All my live I believed the first thing I would do if faced with infidelity was to D immediately.
As most of us, I never though this would happen to me, honesty and sincerity was what I most loved in my H.

I am now facing myself, I have to find why is it so hard to forgive myself? It's not about the WS, I have to find the real reason within myself.
Personality? Pride? Fears? Doubts? It depends on each of us I guess.

I have to find that peace in myself with myself.

bOb pure, thanks for posting the question in General!

Very insighfull to read everyone opinions. Specially those undoubted "Yes".

I saw this on the other thread and it gave me a start, I hadn't thought about it in quite those terms. I know that I was/am angry at myself for believing him after countless lies. After the fog lifted from my eyes and I saw the embers burning from the whole A mess, I was humiliated over my own actions during the A. It was all pre-MB, but it was the allowing WH to treat me the way he did, w/o consequenses that bothers me. I have during this M made decisions three times based on not my feelings, but what I thought best for our childred. I don't think I know if my last decision to try to salvage the M helped or hurt our sons, probably some of both.

I was just thinking this morning about the what if's, such as the first D-day if I had thrown him out then and stood up for myself, I would feel better about myself, in theory. However, if I did do this, I am certain I would have regreted not trying. There isn't an easy answer for most BS's as we don't have a crystal ball and as HL said, we were different people when we made certain decisions.

BP, I didn't know how you discovered your FWS affair, that must have been very hard for you (an understatement I'm sure). You are very much a man of character to do what you did.

If my WH ever tried 1/4 as much as you did, I don't think I would feel as badly about trying as I do. So, it seems to me that my forgiveness of myself is somewhat conditional on my WH efforts and the outcome of our M, hmmm.... something for me to think about.

Bob, what is this drivel?

"No" is the answer, because there is nothing to forgive.

I suppose the corrollary to this question would be something along the lines of "has the person who was raped forgiven themselves for being raped?" Nonsense.

You, me, all the Betrayed Spouses who CHOSE to stay and attempt recovery of their marriages made a courageous choice and there is NOTHING to apologize for. To CHOOSE to remain married even in the face of the "ultimate betrayal" is an honorable and laudable choice, not something to "forgive oneself" for making.

This notion seems to be rooted in resentment, in a "second best" mentality, that is destructive to recovery and that wants to "wallow" in the pain associated with recovery. Does a cancer patient have to "forgive themselves" for undergoing painful radiation and/or surgery in the hope for eventual full healing and return to normalcy?

Doubt. It comes from the "enemy." So just WHO are you going to believe?

Okay, feel free to bring out the slings and arrows of disagreement, but just what position vies-a-vie recovery do you want to "defend?"

God bless.

It may help you understand where this came from FH if you read some of the replies on here and also the thread that spawned it on recovery HERE .

You are at liberty to consider this debate "drivel", of course. The same drivel has provoked several of us to think deeply.

In summary some of us feel that while we know attemting recovery was the right thing to do, we feel that we betrayed our core beliefs in some way and that requires self forgiveness. I suspect you won't agree.