Good Morning everyone! Yes, I have forgiven myself. I actually don't think that was ever a question. I firmly believe that H and I can work through whatever problems we have in a healthy manner with a lot of hard work and effort. It's not a matter of staying together for the kids, it's a matter of what's best for us, because if H and I are okay then the kids will be okay!

I don't need to forgive myself.

I didn't do anything wrong.

well yes as a man its extremely difficult for me to accept being used and betrayed like a doormat. I went thru it before and swore if it happened i would bolt quickly.

But when it happened i didn't bolt, then when the lies kept going on i still didn;t bolt even when i promised to. i could not understand why, i was sickened and diusgusted with myself a coward and a half man every day for weeks.

But eventually i knew why, i had to be the one to stand up and be strog enough to save my marriage and family, i had to be the one able to weather the storm and stand fast for my family. Forgiveness is absolutly not in my nature. I have had to learn how to manufacture this artificially.

In the end my marriage vows convinced me that even though my wife has descrated our marriage and family i had to fulfill my vows to god ( i am not religious in the slightest but she is, go figure). For better of for worse desribed my situation. i could see she was not strong enough to do what we had to do alone so i decided if i wanted to live with myself i had to stand up like man and truly be Christ like and Forgive.

I am still questioning myself everyday about it, but in the end if you put aside your ego, your horriblre pain, the endless hours of morning over what was lost and you try to pick up the pieces then you being the rock that your family and spouse needs. There is nothing but strength in this position and despite any misgivings we have to understand it is not really weakness as our ego tells us it is.

i truly beleive even if my marriage fails i have given the proper effort required of my responisibilties to my wife and children. if i had given into my pain i would have been very sorry. i know i can get over my wife if i have to but i could nevrr get over letting my family fail.

If you are the spouse who held together your family stand and and be proud that you are the pillar of strength that family is built around. if you are the spouse who tested the marriage then realize what an enourmous sacrifice your wounded spouse has made to save, you and your family and that no greaster test of love can ever be given.

That is what I have been thinking.

Hi Bob,

No, I haven't forgiven myself for remaining in the marriage the "first time" my H cheated on me. After 7+ years into recovery he did it again. Which is definitely why I still regret giving him that chance.

After the affair died its natural death, he did and said all the right things ... begging, pleading and promising for a second chance. I let him back into my life only to have him lie, betray, disrespect me and our marriage yet again.

I'm working on forgiving myself. But to this day I am still very leary about ever letting anyone that close again. It gives them too much power.

Thanks for asking the question.
Jo

I think it has to do with power.
As in loss of power to control your own life.
Saying "I don't want you in my life anymore because of this terrible thing you have done to me (and our family)!" sounds very powerful, doesn't it?
Yet we might regret afterwards doing this, too..

If the WS stays in the M without showing much regret, we might feel like we backed down too soon, too easily.
Like we gave up our "power" and handed it to the "enemy", as if we were afraid of him/her.

Yet that is not what this is about.
We are all still powerful.
We can still decide to move on or move out.

If the WS isn't really that repentant and refuses to work on the M and him/herself, that's a big red flag to me.
Saying "I'm sorry" isn't enough.
My XWH said "I'm so sorry", and he was, but more like a drunk who beats up his wife and apologizes sincerely when he sobers up and sees the bruises on her face - then starts all over again next time he gets drunk.

If the WS is very, very sorry but doesn't have the inner structure to deal with this guilt and pain, they might be unable to open up, own their mistakes and work on the M like a fighter instead of a guilty sort of loser.
I think this particular situation calls out the BS to grow and become a greater person, with more love and understanding.
This doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

My therapist said when I wondered if it would be a good idea to stay in the M, since I didn't feel I could trust my H: "If you're in the train station and want to go to R (=recovery), you need to get on the train. If you find out that the train is not going to R, but to A (=no recovery), you can still get out. But.. if you want to get ANYWHERE, you need to get on the train."

I'm glad I decided to take the train.
It didn't go to R: so I got off.
But I always had that choice.
No loss of power.

Bob - Interesting question. My first thought is have you expressed these feelings to Squid?

I really don't know if forgive is the right word.

I think it has more to do with do you feel you've been compensated for your choice to work on the M. Harley mentions the idea of compensation, and I think that is at the crux of it. I believe he admits that full compensation is not possible, but the FWS should try.

I believe people have an internal need to have fairness and equality in their interactions with people. The principle of reciprocity is a foundation of relationships and society.

The hard part is pricing these things out. Placing a value on them is at the sole discretion of the individual buyer and seller. The love bank principal is a fine analogy. I think where it falls short is in the pricing.

If I can expand on this a little.

Upon D-Day, the BS feels like they have just been taxed or charged an enormous price. There ledger becomes immediately in the red. Let's say $10 Million short. The BS can't accept that deficit, so they demand it be made up. Your choice is to let your WS do it, or move on and find somebody else who can do it. If you suscribe to the MB principles, anyone can start meeting your EN's. Anyone can start being affectionate, sharing conversations, etc. Why choose your WS? Because you believe there is more value from your WS meeting your EN's than from somebody else. Sort of like an ILY from your WS is worth $200, while only worth $100 from somebody else. This is completely logical, as you made this decision when you proposed. You chose them above all others.

When one says, my WS just doesn't get it. They get it, they just don't value it the same way the BS does. The cost of D-Day to them, is only around $1 million. Sometimes they may believe that your behavior in the past already left you $1 million short on their ledger. The A just makes them even and they owe you nothing, or even worse, they feel they are still in the red. Additionally, an ILY from OP is worth $300, while an ILY from the BS is worth $5.

Sorting through these ledger balances, what each party values, how much they value it, etc. to me is all part of recovery.

The other part is that these balances accrue interest, so to speak. The longer you sit with a $10 million deficit, with no payments being made, the bigger that deficit becomes.

I think what is really hard for the BS (among other things), is that if initially you do what you feel like doing. Demand your compensation right away, your M is usally doomed. The WS doesn't feel they owe you anything. Following the MB principles is hard because not only do you not get to demand your compensation, but you have to go even deeper in the red. You have to quit looking at your ledger for a while.

I don't think coming out of the fog is anything mystical. To me, its a matter of the FWS realizing that the cost of the A was much higher than they thought and realizing that an ILY from the BS and the OP are both worth the same amount. (BS need to realize this too)

Somewhere along the line in recovery, if you are recovering, the immediate threat of separation or divorce dissapates. This is when the BS starts to look at the ledger again. Once the BS does this and realizes they are still in the red, they start to re-evaluate the decision they made on D-day. Some have revenge affairs to "even" the ledger. Some say they've learned an M can be so much more and demand more from their FWS. But this is really just trying to even up the ledger. Some slack off on what they were doing as a way to even the ledger. Some just keep plugging along and over time, the ledger starts to even out. Some just reset the ledger forgive the debt all start over.

So back to what I said above, I don't think its about forgiving yourself, I think its about do feel you've been compensated. Value up everything you have now, total up your ledger. If you don't feel compensated, talk to Squid about it, cause eventually it will blow up on you. If you do feel compensated, you have nothing to forgive yourself for.

Just my two cents. As usual, maybe I'm nuts, but welcome others opinions.

As for me, under this view, I don't feel compensated yet.

FH, I think, for me at least, this question strikes a cord because down deep my values say that I believe adultery is wrong and has no place in marriage. I should NOT tolerate it, should NOT let it be a part of my relationship, SHOULD draw the line in the sand for FWS, should FORGIVE but not reward his behavior by accepting him back into my bed. By accepting H's behavior, am I sending a message to other Waywards or potential waywards, that THEIR actions will be ultimately tolerated, too? Do I have any responsiblity for this becoming more and more tolerated?

That being said, as a believer, my values and beliefs also say that I should forgive as Christ forgives me, he does not withold anything from me because of my sin, I make mistakes, if I had committed adultery, would I want a second chance?

There is a conflict in my heart sometimes. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean reconciliation, does it? What if the breach has been too great? HOw much can a (wo)man be expected to tolerate? I know God can do the miraculous, but does He always do it? I feel like I have cried out to Him that I am a willing partner in that process,maybe I just have a ways to go yet in getting my heart to the right place.

I don't know, just what I think about sometimes, FH. This is a long, long journey and it for me, at least, is filled with so many questions.

Kimmy

I didn't do anything MORALLY wrong, but I betrayed my principles that I would never tolerate infidelity. I allowed myself to become a choice that Squid could choose or reject.

In that I wronged myself very badly whether it was morally wrong or not. Its a source of indignation within me. Just naming it is helping me.

I think we do need to forgive ourselves.

Some keep saying I did nothing wrong. This is true you did not commit A.

Most of us have a moral belief that A's are wrong. I for one told my FWW if she ever had an A I would D her.

We had conversations about A's in the past and I told her if I ever wanted an A I would D her because it meant something was really wrong with our M. She said the same thing.

Now I have not obviously enforced my boundries. She crossed it and I am still here.

I know that I am in this M for my kids. My EN's have not really been met for years. I now think sometimes maybe I should have asked for a D well before her A.

Deep inside I have been looking externally toward my FWW to give me a reason to forgive myself. Help me forgive myself for staying here by making this a great M. Help me make it better then it ever was before. That hasn't happened. So until I read this thread in recovery it has been very hard for me.

Now I can forgive myself for not enforcing those boundries. There have been positives in my life since the A outside of my M. I have seen my children every single day for the last 3 years. I have been a good provider and I have worked through the financial aftermath of her A.

I may not have enforced my boundry of not adultry but I can forgive myself now becuase at least if it doesn't work out I can hold my head up high and learn from my mistakes.

I did need to forgive myself for not enforcing my boundries. I have started that process and it feels good.

One last thing quite frankly I feel like I did something morally wrong. I felt like my morals were such that if my FWW cheated I would walk. Forgiving myself of that is important. I am no less moral for staying with my FWW then I was before the A.

I just want to "second" what Ahuman wrote:



I can't imagine viewing it any other way.

This is fascinating. I have woken up at night regretting my own actions of not be strong enough when I called a spade a spade to follow through & insist that my Husband get with marriage or get lost.

I allowed myself be degraded & humiliated from the point of initial doubt right through those painful months until I asked him to leave.

Then I degraded & debased myself further in begging him to come home.

I wanted to believe in like Vercing above says being stronger for the greater good, to help spouse, myself & children. I used that idea as my basis, yet I was crumbling inside. I hated who I'd become a betrayed wife, who was deeply hurting, insecure, clingy & needy.

Have I forgiven myself? I don't know if I am ready to admit my naivety that I was stupid to be so trusting so easy going so loving so damn caring for him rather than for myself.

Everything I ever believed in has been made of mockery of.

As part of my healing journey for myself I am listening more to my heart, to my hurt heart, to my desire to be loved & accepted. Eventually I will have to do that for myself, I am not there yet so I guess I can now admit, no I am not ready to forgive myself, I am learning more about myself. Perhaps this could be the catalyst.

I like how Brown refered to the transfer of power, perhaps that is it too.

Thank you for talking about something sooooo important.

SmartCookie & AHuman Thank you for seeing it as strength - you give me hope

Bob wrote (emphasis added):

Bingo! That exactly describes what I have been struggling with for so long. I have tried to put this into words on these boards in the past without much luck with clarity. Thanks for the clarity.

Todd

I also had the core belief that if my spouse cheated on me I should leave.

I did not do that. And at first I also felt badly about myself for not doing so.

But now I no longer do. I have forgiven myself, not for violating that core belief, but for having it to begin with.

To me, it is part of the collection of naive beliefs I came into marriage with. Like my belief that if you have to really work at a relationship, it is not real love. Or that love is only a feeling. Or that my husband should know what I want without my having to tell him. Or that if my husband really loved me he would do what I wanted all the time. Or that I would always have that butterflies in my stomach "in love" kind of feeling for my husband every day.

I now realize that love, real true love, is a heck of a lot of work. And that being able to forgive infidelity is exactly what the priest meant when he asked me whether I vowed to accept this man as my husband for better or worse.

That is not to say that I believe myself obligated to stay with an unrepentant cheater. But I do believe my vows mean that I have to give a second chance to a man who is working hard to right his wrongs and be the man he and I both want him to be.

((((BOB))))

I understand what you are saying. Fortunately for me this was one issue I didn't have.

I just have a whole shytload of other issues....

Tit for tat, I guess.

Bob, I guess that sort of depends upon what you mean by "core beliefs." If, by that, you mean a "non-Christian" belief that does not embrace biblical forgiveness, then I guess you might be right. If you mean your "core belief" is that you have to "forgive yourself" for taking your wife back after her betrayal, then okay, forgive yourself for that. But I still don't think that if one has turned their life over to God's "core beliefs" and accepted them as their own, there is any "core belief" other than forgiving someone who has repented of their sin against you. So if you mean to "forgive yourself" for not giving into your "human nature" and, instead, following God's commands, I guess you could do that, though I don't see why that would be necessary since you, as a Christian, turned that "human nature" over to God and became a "new creation."

Mixing "humanism" and Christianity may be tempting, but perhaps not the "wisest choice." You, me, all Betrayed Spouses, were terribly hurt, unfairly, by our spouse's adultery. Having what is referred to as "righteous anger" over that is expected and normal, but the command is "be angry, but in your anger do not also sin." It's admittedly tough to do at times because our emotions do get in the way. But as with most things, when we give into our emotions and let them "rule," we most often make mistakes.

Prior to my wife's affair, I, like so many others, held the "core belief" that "if you cheat on me, I'm gone!" I would have had to "forgive myself" if I had held to that "core belief," instead of surrendering my wounded pride to God and followed His command for forgiveness and reconciliation.

If you want to "forgive yourself," for feelings, such as anger and resentment, then by all means do so. But to say that the choice to remain married and to recover your marriage needs to be forgiven seems to be stretching the concept of forgiveness beyond it's intended use.

WHAT is in need of forgiving in a choice to honor your marriage and to follow God in forgiveness of sin against you? If perhaps you are really referring to forgiving yourself for whatever part you may have contributed to a marriage that may have "set the stage" for the adultery option, then okay, I will stand with you as one who has repented of his own contribution to the "marital state" that preceeded the affair. For that I sought forgiveness from God, my wife, and myself, especially for my stupidity and lack of understanding of my wife's emotional needs that I was NOT fulfilling "back then."


God bless.

"" BS: Have you forgiven yourself for staying in the marriage after being betrayed?""

Not yet!

How's that for an answer? I totally know what the question is.

Down deep in my heart of hearts, I feel I am a wimp, a [censored], half a man, and a spineless coward for not kicking her to the curb and starting a new life without her. And I have not forgiven myself for that. (The worst I endured was seeing OM's email bragging about finding her G-spot)

BUT...we have a happy relationship now. She is still very remorseful and totally committed to us. She is affectionate and attentive to me and our relationship. She acts like nothing happened.

I am glad I stayed. The alternative(s?) would be much worse. I must refer to the pee-stained couch again, that I am becomming comfortable and HAPPY sitting on.

Lately I am realizing how much damn energy and time I still use thinking about the A. And how I CONTINUALLY think about it and spend energy much more because I stayed in the M..laying next to her every night.

Energy....LIKE TYPING THIS RESPONSE AT MB!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

If I had left and started a new relationship (or not)I would be caught up in whatever and not have her there to remind me. But I am much more happy with her there.

So it goes with the adultry territory and hopefully time will slowly heal this too.

Very good question, Mr. Pure!!

Bob, "principles" of "never tolerate infidelity" is what you DID uphold. You did NOT allow infidelity to go "unchallenged." You DID, in fact, put down the line of "him or me, but not both." You have nothing to apologize for or to forgive yourself for.

Now, if you want to stretch that "principle" to not forgiving and not loving your wife of "one flesh," you can do that too. Certainly if the WS is not repentant and not willing to end the affair, you are NOT going to take her back and you will remain "faithful" to your "principle." However, you also have two other "principles" that are playing out at the same time. First, you LOVE your wife despite the awful pain. Second, you love God and are surrendered to Him through Jesus Christ.

"This IS love, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Should Jesus forgive himself for dieing for us and "taking us back" as his bride? By extension, that would seem to be what you are saying. But you did NOT betray your "principles." Your principles changed and grew as you accepted Christ and began to grow in your walk with him. You began to understand what love is, and what love "requires" sometimes, simply because you DO love.

Bob, it does take two to have a marriage. If Squid had not ended the affair and attempted to recover your marriage with you, you would NOT have tolerated ongoing infidelity, of that I am certain. As Jesus told the woman, "go, and leave your life of sin." He did not tolerate her infidelity, he told her to end it. Just as you told Squid. Squid listened, but we don't know what choice the woman made. Regardless, "letting someone back into your bed" after infidelity is NOT the issue. Fidelity is the issue. Forgiveness is the issue. Today and tomorrow, not the repented of and forgiven past, is the issue.

Yes, it takes a lot of time and work to overcome the emotional impact, the mental movies, to rebuild trust, to learn to be "just the two of you" again without the Other Person as a "ghost." Bob, you are still in recovery and what you are working through is the typical sort of mental processing that a BS has to go through. But I want to make it perfectly clear that you have nothing to forgive yourself for in taking her back and rebuilding your marriage.

Rather, you are a hero. You stood on your principles and fought off the thief. You stood for God and God stood with you. You faced one of the most horrendous challenges you could face, and you succeeded. Never forget that Satan does not like Christians to "succeed" at anything. He wants to twist your actions and make you doubt yourself.

Principles, Bob. You had them. You have them. You stated them. You stood for them. You forgave as God has forgiven you.

Perhaps it might help you to put it into focus to think about Joseph. Did Joseph betray his "principles" when he forgave his brothers? After all, their actions sold him into slavery, got him tossed into jail for refusing to commit adultery, and then he wound up with the POWER to do whatever he wanted to do. And Joseph stood for his principles. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Romans 8:28 in action long before the time Romans was written.

It is easy to see the evil that we face. It is harder to see the good that could come of it until we can "look back" and see the unfolding of God's plan in our lives.

Stay true to your principles and don't listen too much to that little voice of doubt that keeps trying to derail and/or delay your healing and growth of your marriage and lives in Christ.



Not quite that simple. Squid already had chosen to reject you, as have all Wayward Spouses chosen to reject their spouses and their vows of fidelity.

And, yes, when you decided to fight for her and to attempt to recover your marriage, you BOTH had to choose. Sounds very similar to when you first fell in love and you "had to allow yourself to become a choice" that she could accept or reject. That's called LOVE. It offers itself in the full knowledge that it could be rejected. But it offers anyway because love, true love, IS sacrifical and more concerned about the loved one than about self.




Yes, it probably is. But that's because you are still working through the emotions and still find yourself reacting emotionally. But over time, you will be able to more objectively assess the process you have been going through and you'll truly begin to understand what "forgiven" means, and what "as far as the East is from the West" means as an example of how encompassing forgiveness is. Your emotions are real. Your feelings are real. Your will to choose is real. Your love is real. The "battle" between the flesh and the spirit is real. And it is true that when I am weak, God is able to be strong in my life. It's true for you too. "I CAN do all things through him who gives me strength" is NOT for the "fainthearted," but for those willing to find strength in surrender.

The journey is long and the goal of "recovered" is found at different times for each of us. You are still on the "road," so don't be too hard on yourself. Your principles are intact, you've just been viewing them from and inverted and backward position with the cart in front of the horse. You stood on your principles, and your principles held you true and saved your marriage.

God bless.

I am the WW and I am fighting hard for my M but I am not getting very far. I appreciate your response here!!

Bob:
I am confused as to how you can still be asking these questions after two years. You obviously made the decision to stay in the M a long time ago. Why have you forgiven her and why do you continue to love squid??? Please forgive me if I seem a little clueless.

You see my H (todd 1967)after almost 2 1/2 years has not forgiven me or decided to stay in this M. Matter of fact I believe we are in the "withdrawal" stage.

Todd has similar "core beliefs" and he is in a very different place then you. WHY??? What are some of the decisions that you made along the way to get where you are now?? I feel like I am fighting inside myself everyday and am losing this battle. I have asked God for forgiveness but I feel beat and dishearted almost all the time.

I just want to understand the BS like you and todd. He tells me frequently that "I just don't get it!!" I pray about it and think about it and I am not sure exactly what part I haven't gotten! I know the damage that I have done (on so many different levels) he and I have discussed it. Can a WS REALLY ever GET the BS?? Obviously I am missing something. What is it that Squid did and continues to do that allowed you to forgive and stay??

Thanks for listening,
Cruise

actually

I think Bob's timing is perfect!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep