Being honest with myself, this IS the ONLY reason my BS gave me a second chance.

It hurts to know this, still brings a lump to my throat to think about it, but it's just the truth.

Of course, I guess it helps me to realize that the reason he is still here after two years is due to more than the kids. And anyway, I guess I should just celebrate that I didnt lose him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OMG! Are you SURE we're not related somehow, GC?

Oh yeah.

We are.

Just not genetically.

Through the fire.



PERFECT!

- Kimmy

I believe that if the answer changes depending on the context, then you are not dealing with a core principle at all. Perhaps we sometimes mistake what we believe to be core principles for what is really a set of strong guidelines. They are different. None of the things I call core principles follow this pattern --> "I will do this unless..." They always follow the pattern --> "I will do this regardless..."

I hope this shows the distiction.

As to how this applies to the topic at hand...if we have a "regardless" attitude and then violate that anyway, how do we reconcile that or forgive ourselves for that violation? I know that not all people have strong core principles. Some belive they do, but what they have would really be better described as guidelines. Those of us that do have a real struggle with this violation we have chosen.

I think the movie quote is valid. We need to be careful with our declarative statements. I would not make the statement "I will never kill someone." This does not allow for the possibility of self-defense or accident. I would, however, make the statement "I will not murder someone." This way, the context is irrelevant as long as I make the statement context-neutral.

Todd

Todd - I understand your point. Maybe I just look at it a little differently. To me, beneath "I will do this unless" or "I will do this regardless" is a principle. Those two statements define actions.

"I will never kill someone" or "I will not murder someone" are action statements concerning the principle or core belief of "I respect the sanctity of human life."

With the topic at hand, if one has a "regardless" attitude, don't marriage vows also have a "I will stay with this person, regardless". But everyone on this board would say you don't have to forgive your self for leaving a WS or an abusive M. There is nothing to reconcile or forigve. You are following the principle of I will do what's best for me and my family. The principle of the best interests of me and my family are inseparable. The principle of seeking to be the best you can be.

So to me, stay in the M or move on, you haven't violated a principle or a core belief. You've changed your plan of action. I don't see this as something that needs to be forgiven.

I have been out of town for business for a few days without Internet access....and I saw this and wondered if Bob was my evil European twin....because you nailed it!! I can't find the help though....this is why I say I'll never forgive her actions, her lies....I guess you could call it "MY ORIGINAL BOUNDARY"....and I stay steadfast in the newer ones this one never changed....

perhaps forgive is not the right word....but I have identified the cause of my struggle....

This has been a very thought provoking thread. I think it is interesting how some of us feel no need to forgive ourselves for staying in the marriage, yet others do.

I was reading on Todd's new thread and another thought came to my mind about forgiving ourselves.

This is may be way out there, but could some of BS not forgiving themselves actually be not forgiving themselves for their share of the problems in the marraige before the A?

Or is that an entirely different type of forgivenes for a BS?

I do still have some twinges of 'what ifs' when I think of the marriage post affair. I'm not sure I have forgiven myself for that. I guess I never thought of it like that.

I know we have both worked on correcting the issues that were there pre-a.

This thread really has me thinking.

Thanks Bob

I think that self-forgiveness is a ginormous part of the process.

But...

forgiving one's self for staying in the M after discovering one's WS' A?

I haven't a clue what's up with that.

I forgive myself for being as naive as I was and thus enabling the A 2 leave the pad 15 years ago.



but...

It is most certainly with unbridled modesty that I humbly accept the award for staying in M after D-day.

[2long accepts sta2ette and, head down in respect for his peers, leaves the podium...]




...besides, the parties after are so much better than the academy awards before.


-ol' 2long

Interesting question...

I don't feel like I have to forgive myself for staying because I don't feel like I gave anything up to stay. In fact, I have self-respect for the changes that taking him back was contingent upon (anger and other LB's, ending with OW, quitting the job, POJA, counseling, EN's...) I felt a big dose of self-respect when I held our divorce papers (from me initially filing) over our bed and thought "You can't do this to me and get away with it -- I'm not your doormat." Happily, I also had self-respect the day I withdrew the divorce.

I have felt someone ask me this question in a different format (kind of a "how do you live with yourself knowing you gave your husband a free pass to cheat?") and I know that #1 it wasn't a free pass, and #2 my kids are doing wonderfully, and #3 so are we as a couple -- and let's not forget #4 being divorced isn't such a piece of cherry pie either...

I believe God brought us to this place of forgiveness of each other and ourselves -- I don't believe I'm worthy or any of us is worthy of that forgiveness, it's a gift I'm not sorry I extended to FWH, and I certainly hope every BS can extend it to themselves no matter the outcome of their situation. Being betrayed is hard enough without blaming ourselves for the decisions we make following the betrayal.

Peace,
MSA

No. Because I feel like it was a reflection of MY pattern of settling for "less than". A reflection of my feelings about what I perceive myself as being "worthy of". And after 10 plus years of therapy...yes 10 plus..it bugs the crap out of me that I still hang onto this pattern!

When I finally confirmed the affair (had a lot of suspicions) I found out that:

-the OW was 21 years old (my exWS was 47)

-that they met at their AA/NA meetings. The OW would call our house under the guise of AA issues. I was "giving up" time with my exWS 5 times a week so he could go to his NA/AA meetings. This was even before the affair, but it hurt worse when I found out how he betrayed my trust.

-the OW was seven months pregnant with my exWS's child.


I divorced my exWS shortly after confirming the affair. I hadn't found the MB site yet. We attempted reconciliation with me setting the stipulation that I had to be able to genuinely love and accept the OC. I did. But, my exWS chose (by not choosing) to stay with the OW. I felt betrayed by myself again.

.....And it bothers me even more that I still have longings for my exWS 4 years later! I know part of the longings are for the man, the husband, he was. At the same time...I just want to not care anymore...to be neutral. To stop hurting.

I would guess, however, that part of breaking my pattern of "less than" and "worthy of"....is being able to forgive myself....period! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

______________________________

Edit: I did alot of praying about my issue of self-forgiveness after writing this entry. I don't want to live this way. I asked God to please help me find some way to forgive myself. To stop beating myself up time and time again.

What came to me...was that in my situation there was an innocent, special needs OC involved. There was a young, immature, self centered, poor parenting material OW involved. My exWS is very nuturing and supportive of all of his children. He has good parenting skills including diaper and bath duties!

Part of the reason I hung in so long was I could truly understand and respect my exWS's concerns that the OC be safe and adequately parented by the OW. My exWS said that even if he had his OC part-time with shared parenting, the OC would still be spending alot of time with his mother. Having seen her impatience and lack of skills (and unwillingness to learn some parenting skills) my exWS was concerned that if on her own, with nobody around to watch her or assist, their OC could really be neglected or worse.

My exWS's lying was unacceptable regardless. But I found some degree of peace and self-forgiveness when I thought about the above. It truely fits my values that innocent children deserve the very best. When it comes right down to it....if it was me or the OC....the OC is the right choice. And I like that about me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This was not some idealistic statement by a FWS, this isn’t about being MB politically correct either. (It doesn’t matter whether Squid feels this way about your actions or not.) The actions stand apart from opinion.

Remaining committed to a family in the face of personal betrayal and personal pain is a heroic act of integrity.

Staying with a cheater certainly flies in the face of tough-boy self respect (aint no one gonna betray me like that, cross the line and yer outta here!), but it certainly represents a higher – mature form of respect for the family unit and long term vision.

I still believe that there are ways I could have discovered my FWH's A that would have prevented me from trying to recover. This would qualify without a doubt.

Ahuman wrote:


I think this is the way my FWH felt. If anything, my willingness to try and recover made him love and respect me all the more.

When I read this question last week, the answer was a definate No. I have spent the week thinking about it and darn if I haven't accomplished it now.

So now the answer is yes.

My eyes have been opened to things that were right in front of me. On d-day, I made a choice that surprised me, and even more, surprised my FWH.

He had lived in fear of d-day for four months, knowing that there was no way it wasn't coming. OW make it clear to him that when the affair ended, she was going to tell all to me.

On that very day, without any discussion, FWH knew that if contact didn't end right then and there, there would be no me in his life, no chance of recovery. If he had vascillated, sat on the fence, or left, I would never have allowed him back in my life.

I am not sorry that I gave us and our marriage a second chance. FWH has tried as hard as anyone could expect to be a rolemodel husband and he is remorseful.

For a long time, I figured that he just wasn't suffering enough for his transgressions. I thought this because I couldn't see his pain. There was no obvious outward sign that he was suffering the way I was. I know he regrets his actions, I know that he thinks less of himself because of his A. I know that he still considers himself fortunate that I was willing to still be a choice.

I also think he knows that this was his one and only chance of recovering together and that any future infidelity will led to a immediate end to our marriage.

I can and finally have forgiven myself for staying this time.

I don't think there will be a next time, however, if there is, I won't feel the need to forgive my self for staying, and I certainly won't feel bad about ending my marriage either.

Who

MEDC,

I'm running behind in reading this thread so perhaps this has already been addressed. I strongly disagree with you here. I believe that Todd simply does not trust Cruise with his thoughts and feelings. I believe it is a form of self-protection on Todd's part and is not intended to harm Cruise at all.
In my opinion, it is a far stretch to equate self-protection with "abuse".

And further, I think that unwarranted use of the term "abuse" has led to much unpleasantness - usually targeted at men in general. These days, if a man just sits and does nothing but mind his own business, it is "abuse". And it is often asserted, that if man has been "abusive", his wife is entitled to do whatever she feels like doing to "protect herself".

-AD

rpryne,

I like your posts.

-AD

AD - Thanks

I feel like I sacrificed my dignity to stay in the marriage, and not just from the start of his openly inappropriate relationship with OW but literally from before dinner on the day of our 10 AM wedding.

Soemtimes, the WS gets the idea that the BS will accept their behavior. One thing that impresses me about Harley's program is that Harley seems to have some similarities to my husband in personality, although he has made different choices, but I am way different from Joyce. From what they have said on the radio, she dumped him seven times when they were dating and even wanted to continue dating when they were engaged. She made it very clear that no affair would be tolerated. After being dumped seven times while dating, wouldn't you be committed to showing your very best care to your spouse? Somehow, our WSs got the idea that the whole affair thing would just blow over and we could get back to life.

One of my friend's was married 10 years when she came home early from a business trip and discovered evidence of an affair. She asked no questions, moved out, and divorced. She later remarried. Would her new husband risk an affair?
Cherishing

This was a great **bump**


For those in recovery it is almost a must read....for the BS and the WS...

Cherishing makes some excellent points.


I want to point out that some philanderers would never get it. In a business meeting recently the ever wandering owner of a company was struggling with a way to reward the officers of his company who helped build it into what it is today. He had the balls to tell them that he was worried about giving ownership to them because of their "marital issues" with all having been divorced or in the process of being divorced. This is the same man whose own wife has showed up demanding cell phone bills; causing scenes at company parties (rightfully exposing her husband)....and when he was reminded of his actions and her "rights" his response was "she would never do that to our children" - who own a portion of the company!!! Moral of story??? Some people will never get that they don't get it!!!