WAT,

I understand your distinction very well.

It's not MY distinction WAT. Those are the words of people with far more learning than I have. There are tons of articles on this subject....and while you see no reasonable distinction between these two things....I'm not sure whether most therapists would agree with you.

"You're an idiot" vs "You're acting like an idiot."

But it's academic, touchy feely, hair splitting all the way.

That's your opinion. It's not mine. I don't think it's touchy feely at all...I think it's SMART to understand the difference and use that knowledge to motivate people more productively.

For day to day communications, feelings of guilt and shame are the same thing.

Yeah and you can tell me the sky is green chere....but I still believe it's blue. If there is no difference....I wonder why folks are writing countless articles and entire books about it?

Shame and Guilt

So what's "shameless?" Many would say "That's a shameless act" vs "That's a guiltless act."

So this proves your argument that shame=guilt??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Just because there are similarities between guilt and shame doesn't mean they're the same thing!! Yikes!! Why would we need two words to express the same thing?

Why doesn't someone start a thread where EVERYONE can go gripe and complain about posting styles, 2x4s, shame, guilt, trolls, tone of the post, etc.

Maybe they could make it a sticky on the forum- or hey, what about a sub forum just for that?

That way - the posts to a thread would be about the thread.

I feel bad for Wantout if she does come back and trys to weed through the advice for her vs. the debate that has been started here.

I'm not sure she'll get much out of the debate.

Too bad it is going to be hard to find the posts that really are about her situation. There were some very heart-felt repsonses to her. There was a good mix,too. Some were 2x4 and some were more encouraging her to the right thing.

I am not complaining about anyone's style- I see the benefits of both and of a good balance, too. My complaint is this: I think she was looking for help, but Wantout and her situation got lost in the uproar.

I think we've whipped this horse enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Again, I understand the subtle distinction.

My only point is that from a practical, everyday usage standpoint, the two words are synonymous. That's all.

The green/blue thing isn't a very good analogy here. You're smart enough to recognize that. Even though you only have to remove the yellow from green to get blue, the distinction between guilt and shame is a LOT more subtle.

Why are folks writing entire books about it?

Ohhhhhhhh, to sell books maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Prolly can't sell a partial book.

WAT
------------------
When Rush was caught with someone else's Viagra prescription, he didn't exactly get a stiff sentence in the penal colony.

I'm with Star*fish here. It's not a semantic difference between shame and guilt.

Guilt comes from betraying one's own principles and standards; we deal with guilt by making amends for the harm we've done, and working out how to stick to our standards better in future.

Shame comes from a sense of betraying external standards - values with the person imagines are held by Everyone Else but not properly internalised by the shamed individual. Healthy shame comes from betraying standards which a healthy individual ought to hold; eg if we make fun of a vulnerable individual in order to look clever...people around us are shocked...that moment of shame is the the point at which we begin to internalise a principle of respect for others. Unhealthy shame is feeling a sense of the world's approbation for irrational reasons, such as feeling that people are laughing at you when you make a small mistake. Unhealthy shame makes a person paranoid and defensive. You can't work through it by making amends and recommitting to principles, like you can with guilt.

All of us can feel both guilt and shame - one is about the standards we hold already, and the other is about the standards we think people expect us to hold, but don't.

MB exposure is about guilt and healthy shame, it seems to me. It's asking the individual to justify the betrayal of their own standards (guilt), and it's also asking them whether they actually possess those standards of respect for others and promise-keeping, which we expect them to have acquired as adults (healthy shame).

Unhealthy shame would be induced (and often is induced, even by well-meaning posters) if we implied that the person was wholly evil, rotten, and unsalvageable.

TA

I don't think shame comes from posting here ... I am convinced shame about one's self is taught at an early age by one's parents ... or perhaps by society at large ... but not here

additionally, I feel it is also irresponsible when (if) we posters take credit when someone does get better ... we do not make others get well in their spirit, nor do we make them sick in their spirit...

we are peripheral only

no one gets better by any suggestion we may make unless there was that seed already in them ....

my way of thinking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I'd like to offer this from the WS point of view (Though I am very much FormerWS)...Anyway...

On guilt...I felt guilt about what I was doing to Mr. W in my affair...Not enough to motivate me to change though...That emotion was compartmentalized and shelved along with my morals...I wanted my fix after all...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Guilt gets rationalized away...guilt gets shown to the door...

However, SHAME...now SHAME was POWERFUL for me...It was something that I had a much harder time shelving...Shameful scenarios played in my head over and over...And they were pretty impossible to reign in...Shame is what motivates the affairees to keep the affair a secret...Shame(exposure) is what threatens to take away the fix...Remember also that a WS looks OUTWARD for approval...Not inward...Guilt comes from within...Shame comes from without...

I personally think that the WS mindset is something that shouldn't be overlooked...That being said, SHAME ON YOU WANTOUT!!!

Mrs. W

Pep, I agree with this. But don't you think that many WSs are shame-impaired, ie. they haven't learned healthy shame from their families, and are thus very vulnerable to being shamed by posters here? Sometimes a WS takes a stubborn position, and in an effort to budge them, some posters pour scorn on areas of the WS's life that really should be off-limits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

A person with good boundaries would see the unfairness of this, and not be affected. But so many WSs (and a good many BSs - count me among them), have poor boundaries to begin with, and are not good at detecting boundary invasion. If we (MB posters) don't respect those boundaries ourselves - for the best of reasons - how can that help them to work out what's OK and what's not?

TA

100% agree!

I've only been on these boards a short time (since December of last year). I've seen (and experienced) all sorts of styles from different posters - new and old alike.

I agree that every style has its value, and what works for one person may not work for another. 2x4s might have driven wantout away, but (IMO) if she really wanted help, they'll plant a seed or two for her to think about.

The tragedy I see here, and I've seen it played out several times on these boards, is that someone new will post, and the thread will rapidly degenerate into something like this, with people on both sides of the argument defending their positions. All the while the original poster gets virtually ignored, and their situation drops of the map (unless its used to support one side or the other's position).

Yes, wantout got a very harsh reception from many (including myself). But in 2 days this thread has 8 pages - and the majority of it is a debate about what the proper approach to people is.

As another poster said, if people want to debate tough love vs soft love, it should have gone to another thread. Assuming wantout hasn't fled for the hills, where would her motivation be to rejoin the discussion she started?

Hopefully she'll think about what was said to her, and stop her course of action before its too late. I don't think she'll be back - at least not on this thread, as it's become cluttered with stuff not directly related to her situation.

Just my opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hahahah...smart @ss!

their life will be difficult no matter where they go, in that case

Pep

brokenbird and others...

There is indeed VALUE in this discussion as it is ABOUT how Wantout will or will not take things...Also, it keeps the thread ACTIVE...Actually this thread is VERY valuable as she may feel the need to pipe up and tell us what she thinks will work for her...Not that she'll actually be very qualified to know that right now, but just talking about her *may* cause her to engage...Ah Conflict...ALWAYS better than withdrawal, wouldn't you agree?

Bottom line is this, NO ONE here is responsible for what Wantout CHOOSES to do except Wantout...

Also, don't eliminate the benefit this thread has to the people posting to it or the lurkers reading it...They matter too!

Lastly, how do you know that Wantout isn't reading this thread...I'll bet she is!!! Hey Wantout, I'm sticking my tongue out at you!!! Come make me stop!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

I think this is an EXCELLENT discussion

I'm enjoying it

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Too bad this is buried in a thread many people will not read.

here's some of my ramblings...

I believe it's de-values marriage to relegate someones distaste with horrific actions as being based on personal hurts, traumas, and anger...

acts of an affair stand in vile.....seperate from anyones perception...

the ACTS of an affair are wrong....

and reactions to that are NOT based on personal feelings...

acts of an affair stand hurtful on their own....

one does not need and SHOULD not need to have been on any side of an affair coin to promote these acts as they are realistically...

they are LIFE ALTERING for many ....
grossly damaging

they are what they are....

I don't buy any amount of fog truly removes from the infidel that what they are doing on some level is WRONG

unless a sociopath.....

inspite of their rationalization
inspite of their denial

its elementary on one level...

I can not and will not undermine the sanctity of marriage to coddle right from wrong...

and I will not accept that if you haven't been part of the infidelity coin then you would somehow be more accepting of such acts.....

AND
I will not accept that if you have been part of the infidelity coin you would somehow be less accepting of such acts..

our acts DEFINE who we are...

we speak the value of honesty till we are blue in the face..
but if we do not act honestly...

we are not honest people...

truth is truth...

ARK^^

Ms.W....the argument <to me> is not whether this discussion, or certain posting styles, or even shame can have any value....they may all have some value under certain circumstances. The question is <to me> whether the value outweighs the price? You think it does. I think it doesn't. I think we're losing as much or more than we gain. I find value in corporal punishment....doesn't mean I think "beating" is the best way to teach children.

This isn't about "tough love" vs "soft love". The prevailing argument invariably ends up there...BECAUSE....that's the easiest postion to defend....it just has nothing to do with the argument. Just because some folks don't believe that 2X4's are the good motivation tools....doesn't mean they believe in "soft love" or coddling either.....but it sure makes for an easy and volatile argument. <snicker> "Just call them Coddlers!! That'll shut em up."

But nobody wants to argue the merit of balancing truth/powerful messages/bluntness AND compassion/respect....because that wouldn't be as much fun and it would be much harder to argue against.

I prefer to attack actions instead of people....use guilt instead shame as a motivator (and I have tons of stuff from psychologists/theologians/doctors that support my reasons for doing that). That doesn't make me soft....I'm tough as nails. I don't coddle people just because I can challenge them without humiliation and shame. Ultimately, my message is "you're a good person who has free will and can choose to STOP doing these terrible things!" It's hard to shame most people and empower them at the same time.



If we truly believe that anyone is capable of an affair....then that means that good people can do bad things. Aren't you one of those people? A good person who should be remorseful for her actions....but NOT ashamed of who you are?

Just because the only folks who stick around these boards are the ones that were strong enough to withstand some of the personal assaults, does NOT mean that those folks are better, smarter or more capable of overcoming poor choices....it doesn't even mean they are the only ones READY to change. They just have thicker skin. It proves nothing....because most of the people who didn't respond to the 2X4's just LEAVE....or get tired of being drowned out and shut up.

????

I think this the usual circumstances here .... there is balance

Undoubtly, I am missing your current point.

Are you saying there is NOT a balance of messages?

Pep

if sticking around proves nothing

it cannot prove your

"thicker skin" theory either

I think it also needs to be pointed out that what some folks consider to be a "2x4" in reality is an assasination. I read a post yesterday morning by silverpool on Cheated On and I Am So Sorry's thread. She did not hit him with a 2x4, she handed him his head on a plate. There was not one word of helpful advice in her post, it was pure anger, nothing more. Even IASS's wife came to his defense. I watched and waited to see if silverpool would apologize to him. After all everyone has a bad day now and then. She never did apologize. It is posts like that that keep me a lurker and I suspect that it keeps many other people lurkers as well. I have been lurking for many months and have only posted a few times. There are many fine people on this forum with so much to give and I learn so much just by reading. I feel safer this way. OK, crawling back into the woodwork again.

BTW, PEP I love your style <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

back again...

your responsibility is to report the offending post....

ARK