If you want to discuss this more, this would be a better place to do so...away from JJ's thread. That way any discussion we have wont get in the way of JustJilly's thread. I'm free to talk here, if you are.

CR... I'm going to jump in here a little.

I respect your view that this is a non-religious based forum and is about building marriages not about converting religion. But just a couple of points...

1) I am stating this one without any facts to back me up... just a belief I have, so I may be wrong... but isn't the true form of marriage as we know it a Christian based practice?

2) The thread that MM started to help JJ was specifically a conversation between him and her. I'm sure others can chime in and offer support and assistance, but it is for the help of JJ. If JJ chooses that she does not want religion as part of her assistance or her discussion, then she can choose to not respond to MM. I don't think it is for anyone else to say on that particular thread. If you have your own thread, you are definitely entitled to request no Christian or religious discussion... on that thread.

Respectfully,

Shaden

I think that was a nicely done post Shaden.

Crimson,

I may not understand wholly the disdain you feel, but I can relate to it as I once was very, very angry with the Fundalmentalist Christians.

And I realize that you don't want to see religion at all on here, and for you it is not a question of interpretation, but I think you will see the point I am trying to make does relate in some ways.

Some of my friends on here know that I actually would shed tears sometimes and had such a feeling of frustration because although we follow the same path, we see the trees on that path in very different ways.

I had always had such a respect for all religions and a love for all of them, not just my own so you can imagine the confusion I felt over my hatred for the Fundalmentalists, who in my opinion were corrupting my faith.

Then I started really reading what MM was saying and seeing how he could get down to the heart of the matter in a particular marriage dynamic going on for the poster he was helping.

I also started seeing his innate kindness and desire to help others.

I then realized that it was I who was arrogant, it was I who was not seeing, it was I who was disrespectful of his beliefs.

With all that aside, what difference does it make if who he is posting to his a Christian or not? Or if he uses his faith to connect to someone.

What if what he has to say helps someone? Someone who is on the floor in pain and desperation?

With religion aside, what if his words help someone?

I'm becomming much more tolerant now that I have confronted myself about my disdain and it is because of MM and FH that I was forced to do this...

after all, if someone gets the help they need...who are we to judge how it comes to them? Take what you need and leave the rest, right?

I hope you talk about what is angering you so, it is no fun to feel the way I was feeling a few months ago, and if you are like me it is really eating at you.

I have never tried to convert anyone on this forum, but if you think about it, **Thou shall not commit adultery** is a commandment, and that is WHY it is wrong. That is WHY it is painful.

Even if a person is not a christian, surely they can see the value of it. It is to do good and not evil, it is to treat people as you wish to be treated, it is to love even if that love isn't returned.

I don't see how anyone could find that wrong or distasteful.

God Bless,

-Caren

My friend Weaver.

Thanks Caren.

I do still want to chat with CS, if that is possible. Not to be nasty or beat up on her. Just want to talk...see what's up.

To CR - I know what you mean and suggest you take the "bad" along with the good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I bite my tongue every day at this sorta thing. Especially when the message is that I'm a lesser person because I'm not "saved".

Ignore it.

It is fascinating, though - to see the imagination of the human mind at work.

Sit back and observe. Very instructive. Very revealing.

Don't engage until something stupid or "no question" offensive is said. It'll happen. Then query and challenge.

Oh, and marriage is hardly a Christian construct. Monogamy is the evolved human tendency, handed down through common descent - some of our cousins also practice it. And adultery is easily seen as in violation of the Golden Rule which is intuitive to sentient minds and is central to and predates every religion that I've ever heard of.

WAT
-----------------------
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. H.L. MENCKEN (1880-1956)

WAT,

You know I would never call you "lesser!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Would you call him late for dinner though?

WAT, you crack me up. You and committed's been dipping out of the same popcorn machine, haven't you?

Correct, you haven't and wouldn't.

But sometimes the inference (by some) is there from the body of discussions.

I live my life by the GR. No, not perfectly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But the clear inference (by some) is that I'm lesser because I haven't had - and am not seeking - a "conversion experience" to be "accepted" into heaven. That spells "lesser" to me.

I prefer to look at it as my secular motivations for doing good, instead of wanting to go to Heaven (a truly hedonistic desire), are instead wanting to simply help others, or bring others satisfaction. I have an appointment at NIH at 1:30 Monday afternoon for my monthy platelet donation to a total stranger. My "prayer" to him/her.

What a disregard for human dignity it is to respect only because you want to get into Heaven, and to not see a secular imperative to refrain from murdering everyone you come across.

Of course that last phrase is an exaggeration.

But it is offensive when someone criticizes my morals - being non-authoritative and, thus, "variable" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> - as being equivalent to hedonism. How do I keep from kicking puppies? Well, same way you do, I suspect. We know right from wrong, no matter how we know it. The source of one's morals is not a predictor of future performance. It's easier, I postulate, to choose to ignore them than it is to change them.

WAT

WAT,

You know I disagree on where right and wrong comes from. I do believe that it isnt inherent or inate...except for the fact that an outside force put it there.

But as you know, we have agreed to disagree!

Yep.

As a point of detail, I don't believe knowing right from wrong is inherent or innate, rather I believe the GR is intuitive and we learn it from our personal life experiences - thus learning right from wrong.

"Johnny - stop hitting your sister!! How would you like if she was the oldest and was hitting you???"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

I generally use "Jonny, some day your younger brother IS going to be bigger than you..." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />