Early in my WH's affair, I read the book "After the Affair", by Janis Abrahms Spring. It is a good book for people recovering together from an affair, but didn't really pertain to my situation.

As I was reading on another post here today, I remembered an interesting chapter.

The author invites the WS to restore trust by taking some actions. She begins with things that are low cost - ie: be an open book, limit overnight travel, call during the day, and about 30 more behaviors.

Then she lists some high cost behaviors - quit the job, if it was a work related affair, sign property over to the BS, pay for the BS to complete their education, move to another town, etc.

These actions are not to punish the WS, but to give the BS some assurance that the WS REALLY MEANS IT.

I know my WH would never have done any of the high cost things, ha-ha, actually he wouldn't do any of the low cost behaviors.

I'm just wondering what anyone else thinks.

I agree except it isn't the WS making the amends, it is the Xws. WS' IMHO don't make amends. Instead they make irrational demands.

Of course it isn't meant to pizz off the WS, if one thinks so, then they are either still a WS or has their head on backwards. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Believer,

I think those low and high cost behaviors are how the WS goes from WS to FWS...every step of the way.

LA

Hi b,

My WW would not do any of the things you listed. She felt that her A was justified and that she did nothing wrong.

a remorseful FWS would do all or at least most of the high cost actions if they were serious about recovery for their spouse and M.

I do think that the BS would also have to create that safe place for the FWS to act though.

I wanted so much to make it up to my H for my actions - not only the affair but the related actions and behaviour - but you come to the realisation that you can NEVER make it up.
Guilt also plays a part in this.
You can build a new M but I do not think you can truly get back the old.
Part of that is doing the hard things that may inconvenience you the FWS. If your M isn't worth that why are you still in it? thats the question any FWS need to ask themselves and stop hurting their BS.
You have to be in or out.

I have found so much joy just doing whatever I can for my H. Its not a inconvenience at all. its simply loving without fear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I guess some people look at making amends differently. To me, it is more than being "sorry".

The one that bothers me the most is that WH never made any amends to the OW's husband. The husband was fighting for our country when all of this went down, and to this day, my WH has never said he was sorry.

My belief is that to make amends, you ask for forgiveness AND restore what was lost. Of course, that is impossible with affairs.

Say I robbed a bank. To make amends would require I give back the money, serve my time, apologize, and try to do something to ease the hurt that I caused the tellers, the police, my family, friends, etc.

So Believer - Just an honest question - you were upset over the treatment JustJilly received on MB. In what way do you consider her a repentant FWW? Because to me she seems as foggy and entitled as anyone.

I got a lame [censored] sorry from my Xh. He called our divorce to some mutual friends "a sad and unfortunate" situation. He told me he was sorry we couldn't work out...wtf does that mean? Like it was something so strong and powerful that he couldn't control himself or something? UH PLEEEEEEEZE.

Well we do know he can't control himself don't we?

JJ is a foggy girl. Very foggy. She is angling things to MEET HER NEEDS NOW...it was a very different picture I could tell you THEN...when her H was a married man with a wife and family...and she was a W with a H and maybe kids too. Totally different story then.

Back then it was probably a series of justifications..maybe the whole "But I feel God wants us to be together" kinda stupid stuff. And then they marry...voila...ORIGINAL ISSUES ARE NOT RESOLVED...HER H SHOULD HAVE RESOLVED THEM WITH HIS W FIRST AND SHE W/HER HUSBAND...and the SAME ISSUES REAPPEAR YEARS LATER!

Is it any wonder? Doesn't anybody see this? Doesn't anybody GET IT?

This is a very pertinent conversation for me.

My WW used work-related travel as an occasion to visit her lover's hotel room. She then visited his hotel when he came to our town on business.

I have intense anxiety when she is on travel (as she is now)and want to ask her to quit her job (or move to a non-travel position) as part of her display that I'm important to her and not just a meal ticket.

I'm willing to accept any cut in her paycheck to make this happen.

I'm afraid it will build a huge wall of resentment between us.

Am I being realistic?

believer - I'm with you on this.

Remorse and atonement are actually a state of mind, right?

Anyone can claim they are remorseful. That they should be granted new trust.

Since I'm a guy, I certainly can't read minds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How else should I or anyone evaluate what the mindset is of someone claiming remorse? By their actions. By how they put into practice what they say they feel.

That said, the high cost demonstrations reasonably have an upper bound, huh? Change jobs is easy to say. Relocate to another town sounds promising. How far away? Why not to another countrty? I guess what I'm saying is that there's a limit to the high cost stuff.

The other attribute is time.

JMHO

WAT

Believer, I also read "After the Affair" having found it in the bookstore in desperation upon learning of my H's EA.

In one MC session I actually asked for a "high cost" act of amends from my WS which at the time he was unprepared to give. He was also totally foggy as to why I needed such a thing. At the time he was still defensive and insistent that what he had done wasn't really all that bad, I should forgive him and move on, that MC shouldn't be about what he had done, etc.

It wasn't until a few months later that he voluntarily gave me something I had long ago asked for. He installed special blocking software on our home network, set me up as the administrator, and put a time limit on his access to the internet which only I can change. It was a high cost behavior for him. That's the point I believe we finally entered true recovery.

It was a change in behavior with total accountability and transparency that I needed for a feeling of safety.

It was a behavior that was to a certain extent a sacrifice by my H.

It was a way of making amends.

low cost vs high cost amends

[color:"red"]egg zak lee [/color]

where the rubber meets the road

Pep

I think the main reason we are happily recovered today

~~~~> Mr Pep made a very high cost amend

right after D-Day

this was the seed of respect being put back in our relationship

Pep

BigK and others -

Just running everything through my mind. A couple of the FWW posters here say they are sorry, and have repented. I'm only thinking about what kind of amends it takes to address an affair.

The longer it goes on, the more the BS needs in the way of amendments, IMO.

Well said.

My perspective is simple. It is about value when the FWS thinks about making amends.

What do they value most in this world?

For me I want/wanted my FWW to SHOW me she valued this M above everything else in this world!!

How do you PROVE how much you value this M? Tell me or show me?

The more high cost amends a FWS makes the easier it is to BELIEVE they really value this M and in turn value me as a H.

I am at a juncture now where my FWW has really not done any of the High cost amends and even the low cost ones are not in abundance. But now she wants me to put myself out there and treat her like she has made them.

IMHO in is hard to respect myself if I do this. I need to feel as though I am valued. That My FWW would walk to the end of the earth for me because I would do that for her. Heck staying after the A was a walk to the edge. If a FWS makes the high cost amends you can start believing that.

If not you may believe they will walk to the corner store for you and hopefully not run into the OP.

Believer,

I think the FWS making amends is key to recovery.
These are the ACTIONS of remorse.
It's one thing to say "sorry" and quit doing something (NC) but another to take steps to amend or pay retribution [sounds harsh but hey...] for THEIR mistakes that affected OTHERS.
The low cost ones can be easy...transparency, cell phone records, accountability for whereabouts etc. - which I received immediately from DFW.
DFW made some very high cost ones that were the benchmark of true recovery. Getting a new job, moving to a new area were invaluable to me. In fact, looking back now, TRUE recovery just began a year ago when that happened.

Guess it comes down to walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

>Guess it comes down to walking the walk, not just talking the talk.


Yes ma'am.

When you see it happening...when you see the wayward planning it, mapping it and IMPLEMENTING IT, that is when the betrayed feels the first kernels of healing begin.

BTLI (been there, living it)

Kimmy

I think it is an issue of feeling valued. The BS wants the WS to display behaviors that indicate that the BS is valued and valuable. High cost recompense may be "high cost" but what is your marriage worth to you? That is the fundamental question I think. The more remourseful a person is, the more likely they are to make concessions of things valuable to htem. What is more improtant - a job or your marriage? People who are still in a fog will rarely choose their marriage.

[color:"red"] yes! [/color]