There's nothing "just" about being in a nursing home. Nobody goes there on vacation....it's a place you go because your health issues are too great to be treated as out patient or your family isn't able to care for you properly at home. Whether you're young or old, what you have is terminal or not....you have big problems and plenty to deal with. My sister is lucid....but she's got enough burdens in her life....so do the other folks in the home with her. Yes...they want to be a part of their families...not excluded or forgotten....that's not the same thing as calling a MIL with brain cancer to tell them their only daughter is an adulterer.

ML,


ML....I would not try to mischaracterize you....and if I misunderstood....I'm sorry. Your intent was not very clear in those posts....I hope you can see how easily misunderstood they might be. Yes....I am happy to put this to rest.

We'll have to agree to disagree as obviously our experiences conflict.

I'd say that there is nothing "just" about being anywhere.

The majority of residents that I encountered were not people who I would exclude as options.

On the contrary in fact..how would a person who accompanied an ailing spouse and remained due to having sold the home and liquidated assets in order to pay for the accomodations react to that suggestion?

Or the person whose health issues were fairly minor but enough of an issue to require limited care?

I don't think that anyone would expect that a parent in a vegetative state would make a good exposure option..but there is a lot of variation in degree of care between a person who needs help to buy groceries which they will then prepare themselves in their private kitchen and the nonambulatory noncognitive terminally ill patient.

These are all people you may encounter in a nursing home and it is a soapbox issue for me..the blanket dismissal of vital and valid individuals based on their residential status.


edited to ask..Is this something your sister has expressed to you SF..or something you have decided for her? [That she has too much on her plate to be involved and that she would not be a candidate for exposure if it were in question]

I accept and appreciate your apology. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good thread SF..I'm off to bed for the night.

My 6 yr old told me.....'u know what mom? Kids don't like to be lied to.'

Exposure? Most know more than we give them credit for.

My motto, don't treat a child as if they are ignorant. If you do, you may be in for a big surprise and you won't be laughing.

Treat the child with dignity and respect allow them to speak their mind and teach them how t/d so with respect. Form a bond of trust and of course make the info age appropriate.

Don't play games with your children, that's not creating a trustworthy environment.

JMHO,
L.

Hi Orchid,

'ditto' for me.....

When WS had decided he was 'moving out' he wanted US to sit down together and tell the boys that we had decided to separate but that we both loved them very much and they would remain our top priority bla bla bla bla

I refused to do that...I DIDN'T want to separate....HE wanted to separate! ...not the same thing in my books!

Anyway.....since I decided to go to PLAN B.....I am obviously choosing not to see or speak to WS and was worried about how the boys saw that....seeing that some of their friends have parents who are separated but do friendly co-parenting.....and I am not saying it couldn't happen...but I would be curious to see under what 'circumstances'.... had it also been my CHOICE to separate maybe friendly co-parenting could have been possible.... NOT SO WHEN TRUST HAS BEEN PLAYED AROUND WITH WHEN AFFAIRS ARE INVOLVED!

Anyway....I have realized that the boys understood much better than I would have thought as to why I was choosing to be in 'minimum' contact with their dad...... in fact my DS15 told me 'mom, don't worry, I would have done the same thing'....he also told me that since WS chose to leave he didn't understand why sometimes he is soooo sad and starts crying while just sitting at the table..... but then ends with saying: 'well....he can't blame anybody else but himself if he's not happy!'

....yes...talk to your children....you would be surprised how well they actually understand the situation... and 'treat them with respect?'.....oh YES YES YES....just like you would any adult!...and even more......because they get less of it in general.....

....just last night I noticed that my DS10 somehow was not his usual 'self'...... well.....I TOOK the time to just be there and listen to him....his frustrations.....(I see him often internalizing 'things')...so I really wanted him to know that it was OK to be mad....upset...verbalize it..and then let's figure out what we can do about it! ...he is usually very affectionate....but I couldn't come 5 feet of him at first..... he was sooooo mad at the 'world'!

....well....I was pleased with myself/ourselves because at the end of the night.....we both had weathered the 'storm'..... and were back to 'normal'...... and my little DS10 was very appreciative... and I love him to death even more!

....and it really didn't take a lot.....the 'listening' part was the biggest element for the 'turn around'.....

One very important thing to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet is this. My children, 12 & 14, when we lived in FL and now here in AL, hear about A and divorce in school from their friends daily. Some days they come home and tell me that so and so's parents are D'ing because of an A. They talk to their friends, try to console them, and work out possible solutions to help each other. It is a terrible thing to hear them discuss another classmates destruction by A.

[color:"red"] RANT ON! [/color] They also know that a WS who tells them they love them is lying and if you as a BS back up that notion your integrity is shot with them. I have actually sat down and discussed this with my kids, they are more aware and up to speed on As than most adults. Do not sell your kids short and never lie to them! Remember omitting some of the truth is lying also. They need the facts and will come to their own conclusions. With only half truths they will get the feeling they are being lied to, they will not listen to you and will most likely accept advice given by classmates. PORH with your kids, you owe them that. And while we are on the topic, would you get or accept advice about your kids from a crack addict??? If not, then why would you listen to a WS when it comes to your kid's well being or any issue involving your kids??? [color:"blue"] RANT OFF [/color]

AD -
That's tough, IMHO. I guess you gotta figure out what you can truthfully say at his/her age level.

I'm not a child shrink (maybe that's a benefit? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but I am a parent. I'd be tempted to say something like, "Mommy/Daddy has a boyfriend/girlfriend that is against the rules. You're not supposed to have a BF/GF when you're married. She/he is confused and I hope to help her/him so we can get back to normal."

Limbo-
Nope. As I noted above, I regret not REALLY exposing it to my son initially. BTW, my recovery is individual.

I neglected to describe the results of my incomplete exposure to my son. In time, I attempted to explain the real reasons to him why his Mom moved out - that she was having an affair with her former best friend's husband (and the father of his best friends). But because my wife adamantly denied any affair was going on (and still does to this day even though they married 5 months after our divorce) and because of the manner in which we first explained why she was leaving (see above) my son established the safe "neutral" ground noodle described. He apparently rationalized equal blame to each parent for the demise of his family. Plus, he had the added burden of being the only child after the death of my younger son, assigning himself responsibility to "care" for each parent. I believe he is living in denial along with his Mom that she did nothing wrong. He has to. This saddens me tremendously - that he has a skewed view. But I've adopted a "let him figure it out on his own" position. He's now 18 and going off to college in a few weeks. I'm reminded of Mark Twain's observation: "When I was 17 I couldn't believe how ignorant my father was. By the time I turned 24, I was amazed at how much he learned in 7 years."

WAT

OR .... it might be precisely the right time to tell the children!

When children see a parent falling to pieces ... they will want to know why.

Sometimes, "Mommie just got some really bad/sad news" is enough ... usually it is not enough.

An emotional time for the parent is usually (by default) also an emotional time for the child. They need to know why they are experiencing their parent falling to pieces.

"Mommie, why are you crying?"

"I am crying because I am sad about something."

"What are you sad about Mommie?"

"I am sad because of Daddy."

"What is sad about Daddy?"

"Daddy's been telling me lies. And that hurts me."

This is pretty much how it went down in our house. This was when our son was 9 and our daughter was 6.

Then, we decided to put our sadness on a piece of paper & burn it in the fireplace.

Kids liked this. Fire is fun for kids ... well, it is, you know it's true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DS’s most telling statement two weeks after D-Day 2:

“Stop telling me you love me. Stop telling me this is a grown-up problem. I want to know what is going on!”

An exact quote. I wrote it in my journal.

Just J,

We will see CP again in a couple of weeks. He’s on holiday right now. I’ll ask him if he minds if you contact him for a referral. His practice was closed to new patients last I heard.

Star*,

I hope you don’t feel like this is a giant pig pile on you. Seems to be a sensitive subject though. Children are not little adults, I think we all agree. But they are amazingly perceptive just the same. And they deserve the age-appropriate truth just the same. And they deserve it sooner, rather than later, just like everyone else. And during Plan A exposure is as good, if not the best, time as any.

IMO.

In my DS’ opinion, too.

UMMM, I disagree... I think children need to be part of the exposure in Plan A.
I can tell you as someone that was harmed for not hearing the truth about dear old mom when I was growing up and being confused about her friendship with my god father... and the fights... it would have been better to hear the truth.
My son has benefited from having this exposed to him... he understands why we were no longer together

Hi star*fish,

I liked your post. As I understand it, your entire post is that you recommend that children be told the truth in an appropriate, protective way, and not used for adult purposes.

I have a close friend who is 32 years old. Last month she discovered in therapy that a core issue seriously affecting her current R is the intense fear, pain and confusion she felt, at 6 years old, on being the sole comforter of her father when he broke down and became incapacitated with alcohol in the weeks after her M's A. She had panic attacks just remembering it in therapy. Her parents recovered their M and are still happily married.

Thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />....yes smur...that's exactly what I'm saying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I also wanted to address the comments raised about honesty and parental love during infidelity. Several folks have mentioned that children know when they aren't loved....and that you undermine trust by saying otherwise. We all know that fogged spouses can be very cruel and that they don't demonstrate love towards their spouses....and even often towards their children. It's one of the real tragedies about infidelity. But that phase of infatuation and obsession over the affair partner is not indicative of either the WS's love for their spouse....nor their children.

I think *long term* there's no doubt if a WS abandons his family that everyone concerned, including children may have to come to terms with the fact that the walkaway spouse just isn't capable of real love....but during the *addictive* stage of the affair....I also think it's important to help children understand that the WS may still love them even though they aren't demonstrating it. Except in the case of real abandonment....which certainly happens....affairs don't stop WS from loving their children....it does *sadly* often mean they don't show that love to their families.

When a BS comes here and their WS is involved in an affair....do we tell them that their spouse doesn't love them anymore? Or do we tell them that their spouse is confused, addicted, fogged etc. and that once they separate from the affair partner....they will begin to show their love again? Is that the truth? If it's the truth for adults....isn't it also the truth for children? Isn't truth...truth? If an affair is the end of love....then what is anyone doing here?

Most (not all) WS continue to have a relationship with their children, and love their children, even if the marriage disolves. The fact that *some* complete @sses don't....doesn't mean that for the majority of children....knowing that the WS loves them is an important part of their emotional health. I would caution BSs not to project their feelings of betrayal and loss of love onto children. Their is no doubt that affair behavior is often the opposite of loving behavior, but I hope parents will be careful not to validate fears of abandonment or loss of love for children prematurely. If a parent never re-engages....then sadly....yes....we have to help our child understand that WE love them even if their other parent is a walkaway.

Eventually.....there may indeed come a time for both adults and children who must deal with a true walkaway spouse, where it's necessary to come to the realization that a WS may simply not love his family enough, be incapable of love and the WS has demonstrated that lack of love over a period of time too long to deny. But there is also a time to help children understand that their mother or father is making poor choices but still loves them. The early stages of intervention in an affair....is an important time to do that I think.

My post is about the intervention phase of an affair....and whether children should be a part of standard exposure designed to garner help for the BS within the community. I have never argued agains honesty to children (or exposure to children as part of that honesty)....but that honesty must be for their benefit at the time that is right for them (it may happen before, during or after others are told)...not as some part of plan to intervene in affair or encourage the children to take part in the battle to end the affair....they just aren't emotionally equipped to do that.

As so many people noted....kids are smart/perceptive...they pick up plenty....they will have inevitable questions and those are natural times to give them age appropriate information and honesty. I often hear the intervention part of Plan A (exposure and confrontation) described as a "war" or battle.....and it is. Of course children need to be exposed to the TRUTH....just not the WAR. Part of the truth is that people involved in affairs often treat their spouses and children as though they don't love them.....they are cruel, selfish, and ruthless in pursuit of the emotional high they get from contact with their affair partner. MB is based in part on the fact that *most* (not ALL) WSs come out of that fog and realize they still love their families and regret the hurt they've caused.

star*bump <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

personally

I have found that debating an affair-addicted spouse's "love feelings" to be impossible

Personally, it makes much more sense to me to look at & evaluate & measure a wayward's behaviors to determine the value/safety/sense of keeping them around children

Pep

PS

the guy who was just arrested in Thailand claims to have loved the little girl he now says he murdered

... declarations of love for children while in the midst of cruel/evil/immoral behaviors ... I cannot see how that love can be validated

reminds me of the movie

UNFAITHFUL

during one of her trysts, she leaves her child at his school ... and by the time she remembers, he's been waiting on the curb with his teacher ... abandoned, not forever, but abandoned nonetheless

Pep

Pep,


Debating with children is certainly nothing I would recommend.....addressing their fears/anger about the WS acting in an unloving way (in the infatuation phase on an affair) is what I was speaking to. Until a WS demonstrates prolonged abandonment....perhaps it's premature for children to believe the WS doesn't love them....even if they aren't acting lovingly. Once it becomes obvious that a WS will not return home, and abandons their children....then trying to convince a child their parent still loves them....would be invalidating and damaging. Each parent has to decide if/when it's time to help their child understand that the walkaway spouse is not capable of demonstrating real love in an honest or healthy way and that they are STILL lovable even if that parent walks away.


This is another issue entirely....but thanks for your thoughts.

I did not read every post in this thread but I do want to put my two cents in.

All of my children know of the affair and how its affected our family. My adult children even though they know its wrong and don't like it accept the OW and have yet to really tell their father how they feel. The reasons for that is fear of loosing his love and him walking away from them like he did me.

The youngest child 16 years old has choosen to live with the infidels. The court allowed it even though I fought against it. His reason are a lame as my EXWH'S. Mom worked to two jobs to support him so I was not home enough. The OW is nice and on and on it goes.... Reality is he is getting away with things mom would not allow, staying out all hours of the night , coming and going as he pleases, his dad promising things I can't.

I feel as if my children are an exception to the rule and just think its ok dad walked and life goes on. The fear of loosing his love kept them from saying how they really feel..

Hurting

one of the GREAT things about kids is ... they often live in the moment



I am not certain what you mean by "children to believe"

I think I am misinterpreting what you are saying

because I think that you think children are entitled to their feelings ... and to their beliefs

all we can do, as parents is validate or not validate whether or not their beliefs line up with reality or line up with what we believe

we cartainly cannot control what our children believe any more than we can control what other adults believe

but, I don't think you are saying that, so I don't know what you ARE saying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .... did'ja get that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep