A little help if you please.

If you know my story, great. If not... oh well.

My wife and I are having lots of difficulty and the latest '50 meter target' is this. I am trying to get my masters degree. I am enthusiastic about it. She is not. I really want to attend college in the evenings starting Monday. She is not enthusiastic about this.

I sat down and planned a week with class time, work time and other things and saw that we still had in excess of 15 hours available for only us. And I agreed to commit to making the 15 hour mark every week. Primarily, because I want to spend quality time with her. Secondarily, because planning the time in a week can make more efficient usage of it, like a few hours in the evening for college.

We have tried to negotiate, I think... but we never get resolution. She thinks I never want to spend time with her. Honestly, our problems are much deeper than this college issue, but we can not get it resolved and time is up. Class starts Monday and I am either in it, or out of it.

Most of the time she has just not wanted to talk about it. I have tried to get this resolved.. and have left the door open in my mind. Then today, she agrees, but is TOTALLY unenthusiastic about it.

What do I do? I feel that if I completely step out of college that I will gain resentment. I feel she already has resentment due to this and everything else I do.

I have truly done horrible at recovery and I admit that. But I am faced with this problem and I don't know what would be the best. I know what I want... but I certainly would be mortified to know that going to college for such a small time in the given week would be the one thing that ruined my marriage beyond repair.

Silly as that may sound, our recovery is going horrible and I am quite nervous about doing ANYTHING.

thank you for your input.

Patriot,

how about postponing your classes 1 year?
And work on your recovery first?

Brit

Are you REALLY hearing the reasons she isn't enthusiastic? Is it REALLY a 'time' issue or is she worried by other aspects of this?

What other options have you discussed?

Correspondence/online classes? Delay until you can both be enthusiastic? Can she she join you? All just ideas.

Froz might see this as you deciding that your education is more important than her feelings or your marriage. Is this really true? How can you show her it's not?

Otherwise - well, you know what POJA says...

patriot


Clearly your offering to commit to 15 hrs of couple time is not enough to make her enthusiastic about you going to college. Are you sure the 'time' is the only objection she has to this decision? It doesn't sound like it is.


Classes will be there next semester and the semester after. Don't put a false deadline on something that doesn't have to have one.

Not going this term doesn't mean not going ever.


What was her alternative? It sounds to me like this has been presented as an almost 'done deal.'



Stop. Wait. Find some way for a mutually enthusiastic agreement and wait the time it takes to get that. School isn't going to vanish tomorrow if you don't go this term.

If you go despite knowing she's unenthusiastic then there is very little chance she'll ever BE enthusiastic about all the things that come with committing to a course of study. If you wait, then you can sign up with her support -- once you figure out what you need to offer to her for her to be enthusiastic about going.

Regarding your resentment: How much work have you done to offer things that would help you be enthusiastic about not starting a master's program this year? What about doing some self study or setting aside some time each week to read some industry journals. Just because you aren't earning credits doesn't mean you can't learn something about your chosen subject. If you want time for self development, why not POJA that to mitigate your resentment about not committing to a class?


Building a strong partnership means learning to put aside your needs for immediate gratification or success in the moment and partner with your spouse to create conditions that you can both get something positive out of each of your experiences.

It's not the 'small time' in a given week. It's the total disregard of her objections and her right to make joint decisions with you equally about what happens with your lives together.


Listen to your nerves. They're warning you to back away.

Mys

I postponed over the summer and really nothing positive has seemed to come from it. I enjoyed having the time to spend with her... but I have not enjoyed any of the fighting and conflict.(which I am sure will be read as I am still a huge conflict avoider... false. Froz has quite thoroughly broken me of that) I fear that what will occur is this. I will guardedly agree to a 1yr postponement, and when I year is up and I am still interested in college, the fights will begin again. I want to make the best decisions for my family and myself... and honestly, this is a hot button issue for me anyway. In my first marriage, I came down on orders to join the Ranger Battalion on post. My ex-wife pleaded with me not to do it. I was younger and thought it a great opportunity, but I declined it based on her input and my thinking it was the best for my family.

4 months later, I came down on orders for Korea, amd my marriage did not survive. I threw away a perfectly good opportunity for what ended up being nothing. I loath that.

I wouls love to work on recovery, actually, but because I personally have done so horrible at it, I honestly think my wife would rather fight with me than not.

So really, I feel in a lose lose situation. Don't go to school... lose. Go to school... lose.

This is bad, really.

Patriot,

Can you do some of the work online to reduce the amount of time away?

Just a suggestion if it is possible.

This has been your MO since I first started reading about your sitch. I stopped reading for the most part. I can't stand to read how you are constantly walking on egg shells.

Regarding POJA. "I don't want to talk about it!" is not an option. This is a mis-use of POJA and is very manipulative.

With the school year quickly approaching, the two of you should be hammering this out. It should be a priority. I am assuming that you did not wait until the last minute to bring up this subject. Surely the entire summer is enough time to hammer out a POJA.

I do not recommend putting off school if you are going to be met with the same resistance at a later date.

The concept of enthusiastic agreement or bust does not infer that one can choose to delay or reject participation in POJA discussion until a critical date has passed and the issue becomes mute.

Decisions and agreements in your marriage HAVE to be made. POJA is a tool to assist you in reaching mutually enthusiastic agreements. POJA is not a tool to assist you in AVOIDANCE.

Patriot,

You know the secret to POJA is to start by agreeing to the ULTIMATE goal (usually a win-win situation) and then POJA'ing how to get there. Why is it a win for her that you get your Master's degree? What does she lose while you are obtaining this degree? What do YOU gain by obtaining this Master's degree? What do you lose while your are obtaining this degree?

You are in the military, you should know that all contingencies need to be considered, discussed and planned and a successful campaign is where YOU win, and Froz win's.

Now sit down and brainstorm how to achieve this. I think you are just looking at this as going to school or not going to school. It means nothing if you have not addressed the whole thing.

You two need to get to work. Your degree should be PART of the master plan of your lives. See how it fits, see what it costs, and then work the whole battle plan, not just this skirmish.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Patriot,

I believe your W is afraid of letting you hang out with a bunch of young 20 somethings for however many hours a week at night.

I do not believe she feels safe, nor does she trust you right now. So do you really want to work and get your marriage right or do you want to be selfish and get another degree? What is more important Your wife and family or your career and college? Which has a higher priority?

I do not know your whole story, I have read parts here and there. I would definitely follow the rules of POJA, which in a nutshell are you both must enthusiastically agree or the issue gets shelved and MAYBE revisited at a later date.

Right now you are showing signs of entitlement and for the record entitlement burns a BS up. You are a big boy now, you should know you can't always get or have what you want and no matter what the Burger King says you can't always have it your way.

Just my .02 (a little advice from a retired E-7, AF, MSgt)

Patriot, I work at a university and I KNOW that a Master's degree involves a lot more than just attending college a few hours. It is a very time consuming degree and becomes very stressful for even young students with no family or ties.

To be honest I don't think you both need MORE on your plate right now.

This has had a parallel in my life. I have the opportunity to do a degree at no cost because I work at the university. I'm keen but KNOW it would be a lot of work and take away time from my H. I've decided not to do it and I don't resent my H for not encouraging me, in fact for actively discouraging me. He sees very clearly that it's an added stress we don't need right now and I agree with him.

Patriot - when you ask Frozen WHY she has objections to this, what exactly does SHE say?
Mulan

Myschae,
I am pretty sure her primary objection to me going to class is it is something she feels she will have to compete with for my time. To combat this, I attempted to schedule the hours of an average week and show what was available given the proposed schedule. More than 15 hours were available and I was fully committed to enjoying them with her.

There is a true deadline in that I must finish the program in 6 years or I have to start over. I am 1.5 years into that. I can still make that deadline if I sit out this semester… but I can not continue to sit out and make that deadline, to be honest. Missing the deadline means all that has been done is lost.

‘done deal’? That sounds familiar. I think I do submit things to her in this way, but truly I don’t do it on purpose. I just ‘know’ what needs to be done and I expect, to a certain degree, that she will understand.

You are correct in that I could do certifications or some other learning to help myself out in my career. My preference is the degree.

My nerves always tell me to back away. (read:conflict avoider) so I find it difficult to TRULY know when I am not conflict avoiding and when I am trudging forward ignoring the signs.

Hurtingless,
None of the degree program can be done online.

Ba109,
My MO? And now you have stopped reading? What is it you can’t stand reading?? And honestly, I have not used POJA as a method of avoidance. I have tried to discuss these matters numerous times before… yet here I am. I honestly wonder what the ****** you meant, though. I suppose I walk on egg shells most of the time because it is the only way I know how to be cognitive of what I am doing and show care. You are correct, if you say it is failing.

Just Learning,
I love the part about ultimate goal. I have no idea how to do this with her. Anything I wish to do that does not have her as the goal is not a goal she will enthusiastically agree to. That may very well be a DJ… but it is EXACTLY how I feel. I would be MORE than willing to change that thought process, but I can not do that alone. A master plan for our lives… I like that part too. Unfortunately, we don’t spend time thinking of much beyond tomorrow.

Eagle,
Your post struck me odd. I don’t care about 20 somethings. I care about a degree. I have the grades to prove it.She has never voiced this opinion. And frankly, these 20 somethings are everywhere….. You are very right in that she does not feel safe. That much I know. I can not, however, make her feel safe. I try… but remember, I am the evil guy. Of course I want to follow POJA… but that takes 2 people as well. And not that she isn’t good at it… it quite possibly is me that is horrible at it. And where is this entitlement? I am well aware that entitlement burns BSs up. Anyone, really, for that matter… but where in my discussion is the entitlement? I only asked for what I wanted and it continued to get shelved until the final hour.

Kiwi,
There is not some unmanageable amount on the plate right now. And yes… a masters degree will take more than just some class time hours. That said, at the phase I am in right now… class time and some study time(that can be done during my scheduled ‘me time’ would be more than sufficient.

Mulan,
Her single largest objection to me going to school is that is is me focusing time on something other than her, when she feels so totally lacking in garnering any of my pursuit. I chase after a degree, but not after her. If I understand her stance correctly. That is what I have taken away from it.

I thank you for the responses and I appreciate your time. I hope there is stuff to be learned here.

Ok...why does she think you're not pursuing her? If you're not, why aren't you if she's telling you this is what she needs?

I think she's got a valid point.

I am not pursuing her because I had an affair. I am not pursuing her because I fight for everything else, except her. I never chose her. I chose a degree. I chose OW. I chose video games. I chose anything.... but her.

That is why she thinks I am not pursuing her. She does tell me what she needs, but I remain confused.

She says she wants me to speak up for what I want, but then she is hurt when what I speak up for is not time with her. I do speak up for time with her, but it is not every single request out of my mouth. And usually, I don't have to request time with her is such a formal manner.

She is sitting there... on the computer, and I talk to her for a moment. Maybe for an hour or two. I get time without asking for it. But, obviously, I have to talk to her about being gone for a few hours in the evening. This has a much more formal nature to it. I have to ask for something. Not just walk up and take it(which frankly is easy to do when she is not doing anything 'big' and I can just walk up and start talking)

You think she has a valid point? Not that I disagree... but how do you see she has a valid point? If it because she has needs and she wants them met.. I agree. Valid. But what about my needs? Dr. Harley says nothing about toss your taker out the door and only live in giver mode. In fact... that is a sure-fire recipe for an affair.

So, she does have valid needs. So do I. Is that entitlement? Or is that just attempted application of 'balancing the giver and taker'?

I am honestly open to suggestions.

Patriot


I'm not disputing that frozen is worried about the time you'd spend in a master's program. The second paragraph I pasted seems to indicate that she's worried about aspects of time (focus, concentration, 'chasing') that aren't necessarily alleviated by you offering to spend a certain quantity of time with her.

My main observation is that your 'solution' wasn't attractive to her as a solution to her objective. You might think it should be, but clearly it is not (otherwise she probably would have said something like "Oh, ok, then." Do you see what I mean?

Just offering her the 15 hours (or 15+) wasn't enough to change her mind. It wasn't just or fair compensation for her feelings if you take this class. It's unlikely to fix the situation in her mind unless you 1.) supplement it with something she does feel makes up for her reluctance or 2.) find something completely different that she feels is of equal or greater value to her in the relationship.

I'm not trying to beat you up. I just get the impression you might be stuck on this as THE solution. I'm trying to unstick you.


Right. But, Monday isn't the drop dead deadline. Actually, Monday probably isn't really the drop dead deadline for this semester. Usually there's at least a week of drop add.

I'm not suggesting that you don't deserve a timely answer. I'm just cautioning you to slow down a little bit and consider that you still have time before the ultimate deadlline forces anything.



I suspect she's wishing you would 'understand' a few things, too.

I'm sure that completeing these credits is what needs to be done in order for you to earn your degree. It might be that she's wishing you could 'understand' that not focusing on an additional project is what needs to happen for your marriage recovery right now (or maybe even in time for you to use the credits you have, sadly).

What's your priority? If it's school, then she's not going to be able to stop you from going back (and neither are we). If it's your marriage, then going back to school when you really seem to 'understand' that it would harm her feelings about you (lead her to feel abandoned, or like less of a priority) seems like a bad choice.

Right now, it doesn't sound like the two things mutually advance each other - sometimes school & marriage manage to coexist quite peacefully. Until you get to that place, your wife is likely going to feel very resentful and hurt of the time you put towards your degree. I don't know how much damage that will do to your marriage. You seem quite concerned about it when you said:



Would you be mortified because you'd have made a different choice? You're standing at that choice now -- why not make it in favor of your marriage and save yourself potential mortification later?

If this is about how far you can push things (how much you can get) before your wife finally gets tired of you making choices you know she resents, then why not just get out now and save you both the heartache?


This really isn't much about how beneficial a degree will be for you, Patriot. I'm certainly a strong advocate of education. I'm finishing up my BS and hope to enroll in a MS in the fall. I'm positive a MS degree would be wonderful for your career and possibly even enjoyable and a source of great personal accomplishment for you.

Your marriage isn't recovered yet. Your wife doesn't feel safe or like a priority of yours (she doesn't think you 'chase' after her). You might feel you can balance your time and focus but she doesn't seem to agree.


The tell tale sign here is that you'd be "mortified" to find out that this is what killed your marriage. That tells me that, while you want this very, very much, your marriage is still the priority. If your marriage is your priority, then don't do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your lovely wife.

Hope this helps,

Mys

What does she tell you?

Here my opinion - your timing for pursuing your degree is just terrible.

You don't have a high enough balance in her love bank to be able to safely make the withdrawal your taker demands.

That's the boat you're in, like it or not. A dilemma to be sure.

You have an opportunity here to SHOW Froz what's most important to you.

The way you describe your relationship lately is almost like she is your "keeper". You gotta do better than that.

You HAVE to make her feel like she comes FIRST in your life...and, for now, you may have to suppress your taker to do it.

Don't throw away your family for this...it's not worth it.

I think if you FOCUS on restoring love for each other that there may be a right time for you to do this in the future.

Yes, you may lose that 1.5 years you have in it. So what. Either Froz is worth it or she's not.

You decide.

Oh, one more thing...

About your Taker...

I'm not suggesting you drop the idea of college (MS degree) all together. I just think you haven't put the work into completing this POJA. In conjunction with not going back this semester, my advice would be not to just let this drop until it comes time to sign up for Spring or next fall but, rather, to continue to bring it up until you two can managed to come to an agreement.

Go to a marriage counselor if you need a referee to get through this issue.

It would be very bad for you to just 'give up' on your dream unenthusiastically (just as bad as for you to pursue it against her wishes).

Don't go. Don't give up. Don't let it just drop. Get in there and do the work you need to do until you both come to some sort of agreement on how this is going to work out for BOTH of you.

Mys

When I mentioned avoidance I didn't mean to infer YOU...insert you, me, anyone.
I was referring to this comment:

You cannot POJA without a willing participant. Choosing not to participate is avoidance. Instead, a rain check is in order. "I cannot discuss this matter right now but, I will be better prepared and have more time to devote to you on this matter this weekend."

You can have all the POJA skills in the world and they are not going to help you if you don't have a willing participant.

Patriot92,

You responded with this:

Eagle,
Your post struck me odd. I don’t care about 20 somethings. I care about a degree. I have the grades to prove it.She has never voiced this opinion. And frankly, these 20 somethings are everywhere….. You are very right in that she does not feel safe. That much I know. I can not, however, make her feel safe. I try… but remember, I am the evil guy. Of course I want to follow POJA… but that takes 2 people as well. And not that she isn’t good at it… it quite possibly is me that is horrible at it. And where is this entitlement? I am well aware that entitlement burns BSs up. Anyone, really, for that matter… but where in my discussion is the entitlement? I only asked for what I wanted and it continued to get shelved until the final hour.

[color:"blue"] It doesn't matter that you "aren't into 20 somethings" They are there and Forz is not. They may try to tempt you, she knows this and is therefore concerned. Part of not feeling safe yet. [color:"red"] She may also feel that it is too soon to be spending so much time apart. And BTW just because she hasn't voiced it doesn't mean she hasn't felt it or wanted to voice it.[/color] Yes they are everywhere, but there is a big difference between the mall or on the street and in the classroom and study groups.

As for the entitlement, you want to get a Masters degree, she wants your M fixed first. What I got from the first post was this is good for your career, you want it, so why won't she let you have it? [color:"red"]Quote: I am enthusiastic about it. She is not. I really want to attend college in the evenings starting Monday. She is not enthusiastic about this. End Quote. [/color] Does this sound like POJA to you?

[color:"red"]After asking so many times for what you want and it getting shelved one should realize that this is an issue that will not get enthusiastic support anytime soon so as Dr. Harley says shelve it until she brings it up, or give it more time between bringing it up.[/color] It would appear from your post that you bring it up every week or so and she is getting angrier and angrier about hearing about it, but feels unable to address it or the real issue behind her lack of enthusiasm. Sounds like entitlement or amybe selfishness or both to me, just an observation (MHO).

Also sounds like she is CA'ing this issue or is scared to tell you how she really feels.

15 hours is minimum for a healthy marriage, marriages with issues will require more. You have scheduled every available minute, did you POJA this schedule or bring it to the table saying [color:"red"]"See, I do have the time to get my Masters." [/color] Big difference. I would look at your approach to things with Froz, try to approach from her POV, and also try to put yourself in her shoes for a while. Being a BS is a lot harder than a WS, I've been both and while neither is much fun, being a BS is a he77 of a lot harder and more stressful.

[/color]

FWIW Patriot...

Mr. W and I have discussed this thread...We are having trouble understanding why exactly that Froz is having a hard time with this...I don't know what you two have agreed upon as far as posting on each other's threads, but if possible, we would like to hear Froz speak about this...

There is a high value placed upon education in our family...Neither one of us would deny the other the opportunity to become more educated...So perhaps our view is colored by that outlook...We see your getting your master's as a huge positive for your family...not just for you...You will all benefit...Even your children's futures will benefit, as success begets success...If the schedule has been laid out and there is time for the marriage AND the degree, we don't see the downside...

What are we missing?

Mrs. W