After my own little tirade yesterday, it got me to thinking about how unhealthy jealousy and possessiveness are...

From another website:


I look back at my early marriage and the attitudes I had then and I believe I was like this a lot of the time...then over time, our roles switched...

The bad part is that people caught up in this think they a perfectly justified in this behavior because they "love" their partner.

When does a healthy vigilance cross the line into stalking and control?

How do we become sensitive this kind of behavior in ourselves?

From the same website, a guy would follow his girlfriend around and call her 40 times an hour. He would threaten to kill himself if she didn't do what he wanted.

I often wonder about the side of people here that we don't see...

Low, I believe there is a healthy type/level of jealousy and an unhealthy type/level of jealousy. Some level of jealousy between a couple (that don’t include mistrust, possessiveness, unreasonable doubt/suspicion and requests as far as interactions with the opposite sex is concerned etc.) is healthy, needed and normal IMO and shows that the couple cares about each other and feel protective of the relationship…as long as the jealousy don’t become unhealthy, excessive and out of control.

For example, if I become aware or ‘sense’ a woman being ‘after’ my H in one or other way and/or give too much attention to him, I will definitely feel a sting of jealousy but not to the level where I will start to get unreasonable, mistrusts my H and become possessive of him (as long as he keep his boundaries and don’t act inappropriate of course!) My H also has the same mild/healthy type of jealousy towards me and I think there is nothing wrong with that...as long as it stays under control and don’t become excessive/unhealthy.

What do you think?

That's the million dollar question...do we know when it becomes excessive/unhealthy? Who gets to define that?

I'm sure there are men who think it's ok to follow their wives around and call them 50 times a day to check up. I'm sure they would say "I just love my wife so much..."

Learning to express ourselves in ways that respect the dignity of our spouse can be tricky...

Compare "I won't allow you to go with the guys because she may be there." to "I am feeling insecure about what might happen if she is there...will you help me feel more secure?"

Compare "Married mothers don't go out looking like sluts" to "Hon, I feel uncomfortable when you dress like that...can we talk about it?"

Healthy = seeks a solution that preserves the dignity and sovereignty of your partner.

Unhealthy = seeks to manipulate, blackmail and limit choices. "If you go out with the guys, I will just kill myself"

Low, yes I understand what you’re saying. It’s important for spouses to express their feelings/concerns in a respectful way.

I think jealousy becomes excessive/unhealthy as soon as the partner starts to get mistrustful/suspicious; possessive and unreasonable towards his/her spouse while there is clearly no reason to feel this way and if the spouse is keeping healthy boundaries and honest/open...

For example, my H have an opposite sex friend he do spend time alone with now and then (for coffee) if I can’t join them. Although I don’t like it if they spend time alone together now and then and although I do feel a sting of jealousy when it happen, I have never mistrusted my H with her of felt suspicious of either of them at all. My H is honest/open with me about the friendship, keep his boundaries and have never gave me any reason to be suspicious. However, I have shared with my H that I don’t like if they spend time alone together…not because I don’t trust him…but because I’ve experienced how dangerous such friendships can be and how easy it is to cross a boundary if not careful. I will never prevent him from taking coffee breaks with her now and then (that's not my place and I don't expect that from him) but I can ask him to be careful.

So I hear you saying that you (or any individual) get to define when it's ok to behave in an excessive and unreasonable manner...or, more precisely, there are times when the excessive and unreasonable become appropriate and reasonable.

No, it’s never okay for a person to act excessive and unreasonable even if the spouse acts inappropriately and cross boundaries with the opposite sex. To be more specific, it’s never okay for a spouse who have reason to feel very jealous because of inappropriate behavior from the spouse, to let his/her upsetting feelings gets out control by acting outrageous; disrespectful and abusive towards the spouse. However, if such behavior occurs (a spouse acting inappropriate and cross boundaries with the opposite sex) the jealous spouse have the right to raise his/her concerns in a respectful but firm manner. Even anger & upset can be shown and expressed in a respectful way…and a spouse have all right to feel angry and upset if the other spouse act in a clear unreasonable and inappropriate way with the opposite sex...and to let the spouse know of his/her feelings without attacking and name-calling...

I think the key is excessive and unreasonable. For example, there are some actions that are always excessive and unreasonable. Tying your spouse up and locking him/her in a closet so you can be sure they don't speak to the opposite sex would be effective BUT clearly excessive and unreasonable.

The problem is that those things tend to change based on how secure people feel. Sometimes, people feel secure when they shouldn't. That happens more often than not, it seems. Sometimes people feel insecure when they shouldn't. Perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to rely on our sense of (in)security.

So, maybe there are some things that it's always ok to do:

- check cell phone logs
- verify whereabouts (is he where he said he would be)
- share email accounts
- what else?

What things go on the always reasonable list and what things go on the always unreasonable list?

Always unreasonable:

- calling someone 50 times an hour for any reason
- following someone everywhere they go.
- ?

Mys

In my mind, Mys...the test of whether it's reasonable or not would be "Am I violating my wife's personal sovereignty?"

If the cell phone is hers...yes, cracking the account is unreasonable. It's perfectly ok to ask them to let you see it.

All of those things in your first list are only reasonable if the object spouse voluntarily agrees to it.

Here's an example of what I see as the line - stealing and destroying a cell phone that is only hers...versus cancelling the contract on a phone you both own. I think the first goes over the line. The second is an exercise in boundaries - "I will not support the means by which she damages our relationship"

There are lots of examples...spyware on community property computers...ok. Spyware on privately owned devices...not ok. I think many of the snooping tactics advocated here...while understandable...are borderline legal as well.

For the vast majority of cases I would agree... but this is not always unreasonable. If a spouse is suspected of cheating... private investigators and individuals do just this to gather information. The calling 50 times an hour is just ridiculous!

Personally, I saw nothing wrong with LO's response yesterday. He was upset that his wife was out with another man that obviously does not respect the bounds of M. He even went so far as to say they did not have a iscussion about exclusivity... now unless I missed something... there should not have been a reason to need that talk since they are married. There is an assumption of exclusivity... or there should be. Top that off with her plans to come visit for a month and his response is very reasonable in my eyes.

I agree that my anger and frustration was neither reasonable nor unreasonable...it just was.

But I was tempted to strike back...to do something to punish and control her...

While I didn't act on it...and I think most don't...it did get me to thinking about the "reasonablness" of some things that I do.

As far as the exclusivity goes, I'm taking the position that since neither of us have been exclusive since we separated, that we have essentially forfeited that expectation of each other...and that I should extend my wife some grace (and I hope she will me as well) until we return to an understanding of exclusivity...even though we are married. While I have decided to suspend any further interaction with the opposite sex on my part...I really haven't had the chance to see if she would return to doing the same.

I agree. It’s okay to snoop if someone is suspected of cheating. I also agree that Low’s reaction was reasonable.

I agree, but I think there is a distinction between stalking with intent of controlling and discovering information.

The stalker WANTS the spouse to know they are there...watching...so they better behave.

In the other case, a betrayed spouse needs to get enough information to decide how they will manage their own lives in response. It usually only continues as long as is necessary to get this info, then stops. Never with the intent of "terrorizing" the spouse. I think this is ok.

I think Low makes an important point. PI's shouldn't be recognized. If I go to the grocery store or gym and other people are there, I probably won't notice them. If a PI is good, they'll go out of their way for me not to notice that they are at both the grocery store and the gym. I think if you know someone and everywhere you go, they are there -- watching you -- you're likely to feel very menaced. If you just happen to walk into a public place and there are other people there (you don't notice undue attention) then you're not going to feel menaced.

Also, you wouldn't have the resources to have a PI follow someone around endlessly -- whereas if your mission is to stalk then... you might do this for months or even years.


Right. And, it might be that you're only interested in relationships with this level of transparency. I believe in full disclosure of things that are important to you before you go running down the aisle. If you don't know before you get married that you want these things, then I think the only reasonable thing to do is to tell your spouse as soon as you DO know -- with the understanding that this sort of thing might not be ok with him/her. If it's not ok with him/her but you really, really want that sort of transparency, (and you can't POJA) then the only ethical thing to do is to regretfully end the relationship or learn to live without it. It is not OK just to take it because you think you're right.

There's also difference between having a blanket understanding that these things will be done and telling someone asking permission each time. So, this shouldn't cause a problem with "But if he knows I'm going to... then he'll just hide it better."

So, if you feel you need these things in order to have a safe, good relationship -- then the very least you should do is let your spouse in on that tidbit of information (not when and where just that you will sometime). If your spouse isn't willing (enthusiastic) about living like that, your options are limited.

I would put a caveat on discovering an active affair, though. I think if you discover an affair, your spouse has put you in a situation of needing to protect yourself by violating your sovereignity. In that case, I do beleive you have the right to do **those** reasonable things -- but stalking and harrassing is still out of bounds. After the relationship is recovered (if it's recovered) then you're back to figureing out if this is a lifestyle your spouse can live with or not.

One of the things that perplexes me about this board is that people toss out these rules and requirements for a WS to live with then seem to be honestly perplexed when they have to sit down and think over whether or not they'll commit to them for recovery. In my mind, I'd be perpelxed if they DIDN'T think them over -- and think them over HARD. In fact, I'm less comfortable with people who just nod and smile at everything and ask "Where do I sign?" A lot of that stuff is really unpleasant. Sure, it's necessary. But, I still would think any adult with any kind of sense would have to sit back and seriously consider whether or not s/he is willing to commit to those kinds of restrictions (which wouldn't exist if they end the relationship).


Yeah. I think it varies a lot by state. I hope people check.


I'm not sure which response that was so I have no idea what I think about it.

Mys