Post deleted by Detached_Care

You observed your FWH...you focused on him. Did you focus on you? I don't remember asking you to observe him at all. LOL. I was trying to communicate NOT focusing on him, only on you...your reactions, beliefs, what you hear, feel and think...

My DH doesn't believe in joint agreement, either.

And we're really happy. I think POJA is in our future...we're approaching it slowly, in our way. It isn't essential for a marriage. I'm living proof.

What is essential is knowing what you do...Like you, I used to choose to go along with things, to create resentment within myself, because of the emotional reaction I expected from my H. I feared his withdrawal the most.

I did that. I took the poison because it was easier to swallow than feel his upset, his reactivity. That's controlling, isn't it?

Getting straight on the most elemental truth...that we cannot be controlled nor control...isn't just a "Oh, I know that" kinda thing...it has to go down into our belief system, through conscious practice, setting a mental goal to live that belief.

Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

That was a show-stopper question for me.

Nothing leads to an argument...I have to choose to defend, refute or persuade...if I don't choose to do that, it's not an argument...it is two people sharing what they think, feel and believe with each other without judgment.

It's okay if you'd rather be right than married. You might have that deep need...and you will get to face it again in your next relationship...I've faced it with my mother, husband, children, friends, boss...blame is insiduous and pervasive in my life...until I decided against it.

My DH IS a separate person. He DOES choose everything in his life...and I have no control over his choices. He even chooses to feel attacked, controlled, judged...even when I'm not doing it. He chooses his perception and perspective.

As do I.

I believe your fundamental issue is with respect...and that word has several different definitions...mine is the knowledge that we are separate and equal, responsible for our stuff only, limited to our stuff, and knowing we cannot cause, control or cure others...that is respect to me.

"What bothers you bothers me" isn't respectful, IMO. Not while breaking the enmeshment and learning to live differently. That saying would be appropriate when both of you are in intimacy stage, having understood each other and changed a lot of patterns in your marriage. Now isn't that time.

What bothers my DH is his...and if he shares, I can know...and determine if what bothers him now, today, is something I have control over or not. His work bothers him--he has wrestled work all his life. That's not mine. Only to hear and acknowledge. I used to advise, fix, suggest, prompt, praise and promote...all disrespectful, I realized. Funny thing is now when I share about my work, he acknowledges (as he always did), but also suggests, questions or advises...which he didn't, before. There's room to switch off, know both sides, over time...if we really get what isn't ours and what is.

There are decisions which matter to the marriage; decisions which matter to your partner; and decisions which only matter to self. Knowing which is which is important. Prioritizing those choices, with the marriage first, involves POJA...but first comes our choice to POJA.

Many of us humans struggle with understanding control...reacting to it, being reactive about it and our own desire to either feel in control or truly be in control. Doesn't make us bad people or wrong people. Our struggle. Passive-Aggressive behaviors stem from this struggle. Therapy helps us to discover what we do that is passive, passive aggressive, or aggressive...all of us have such behaviors, some to extremes...usually, the higher the sensitivity to being controlled (engulfed or consumed), the more extreme the P/A behavior.

I believe affairs are P/A behavior.

The DJ I hear in your Walkaway Wife posts is that you believe he doesn't want to change, to live in joy, freedom, responsibility and love. I hear you believing he LIKES his life, his pain and fear, your pain and fear...and I've been asking you to choose not to believe this.

Walking away as a boundary enforcement...a third step...predetermined, not reactive...is important. Walking back, and stating when you will walk back, is more important. Doesn't sound like you are willing to walk back.

We have had the urge to ditch and run since birth...to get away from what we perceive is causing us pain. In that way, we learn to abandon pain...and ironically, often experience deep pain from abandonment...from causing others pain...being escaped from.

We can experience that same pain when escaping, also. Takes a lot of justification to walk away. Takes truth to stay.

If you are choosing to believe that a replacement for your FWH is what you need...someone who isn't like him...then you will feel the urge to divorce and replace. To stop the pain coming in from the outside. This belief is false, I believe, because pain comes from the inside. It isn't about him--he's not in your control, and never was or will be--it's about you.

You once were deeply connected to your H...you have the knowledge on how you connect and disconnect...and that we connect and disconnect several times...knowing both can be done easily, sometimes invisibly, often sharply or shockingly...fact remains, we disconnect and reconnect.

I've been asking you, for your whole and marvelous self, to reconnect, not depending on him. To learn how to listen to his stuff without judgment or feeling like the cause or being asked for a cure...to choose to share what you feel, think and believe, how you perceive, without asking for his judgment or cure...to speak to know and to listen to know.

Reconnecting.

If your children are learning to get away from people who treat them badly, does that balance with advising them they deserve to be abandoned if they treat others badly? What if they perceived you treated them badly for the last 15 years of their lives...would removing themselves from you be what you wanted them to do? Or for them to share their grievances, perspective...to ask for your offenses to be recognized, apologized and amended?

I believe that was your shortened version...I believe you teach them to strive first to understand, then be understood. To know the difference between feeling you're being attacked and truly being attacked. How powerful their filter is in seeing offense and taking it...and how difficult that is for humans.

Another poster here on MB, when her H complains about how much he hates his job, she hears she's responsible because if she worked, he would be able to find another job he likes. She says she knows he isn't saying that, she's asked...still that's what she hears with each issue, each shared feeling...

Exposing an affair is respectful, I believe. It is an act chosen from the principle to live truthfully. Exposing to the AP's spouse is informing; same for work (if coworkers) and relatives, loved ones...close friends...and when your spouse is having an affair, you can't act in agreement with them, because they aren't there...they are WS...not DH's...many decisions must be made during that time which is not considerate of the WS, but deeply respectful of the absent H or W.

I believe our choice to act when we will resent is something we choose against the marriage...highest priority...and to honor and respect the marriage, even when we do not want to honor our partners, means choosing not to take an action we will resent...to agree when we don't.

I learned to separate beliefs from actions. If DH said, "I am afraid you'll go back to the way you were." That was his fear, and I acknowledged it...validated. Didn't say a thing about me, my commitment to my change, my choices. Good to know his fears. I appreciated knowing.

Hearing, "I want to paint the guest room and I'm afraid you won't like my idea" are two different things...do I care about the guest room (is it important to me) and knowing it is important enough to him to paint it...and that he fears my reaction or judgment. Good to know.

"I trust your taste and talent, DH. No trap. How much of a burden would it be on you if you didn't like the way it turned out, or I didn't, to redo it?"

"Not too much work, I guess."

"I really do love your work, DH. I doubt there will be an issue with me...I like your idea. Thanks for running it by me first."

Do you know what my DH's pattern was before I found MB? It would be a great desire to paint the guest room, to assume I wouldn't like it, and he would choose not to mention, discuss or do it...rather, resent me for not letting him do what he wants. All without me having a clue.

That was the guest room...not something I prized. However, he just sold stock options without running that buy me and I had to figure out if my reaction--fear--was from loss of the money (waiting would have been more beneficial, I believe); or him not sharing with me his concern about meeting his bills and what we could have done together, instead. Might still have chosen to sell...I won't know. Wasn't included.

What mattered most was my trust in his openness and honesty...sharing before action on something affecting us both...however, I'm nowhere as fearful or angry or pained as I used to react...feeling excluded, lied to (by omission), which independent behavior used to feel like inside me. I know we'll talk tonight about it...maybe an important, tough truth he has will be shared that I have no idea about...or not. I'll know more, and feel what I feel...and know it's mine...not him doing it to me. It's done. My priority is for the marriage (separate from me and him, individually), to know reality, my own expectations, feelings, beliefs and perspective...and what he did went against the marriage, not against me.

Anyway...this is what works for me. And this will be only the second instance of independent behavior this year...which stuns me with gratitude and relief...compared to literally the hundreds we did to each other yearly in the course of our marriage.

One thing that I believe got us to this point in recovery was my decision to follow the rules of marriage and not requiring that he did. Another is IC/MC for nearly two years.

Separating what I resented myself from choosing (to appease, conflict avoid, or hide) from what I chose to do knowing I would resent my H for...helped a lot, too.

I believe it is normal for adult humans to act as teenagers, pre-adolescents, toddlers and infants...we were those people...our brains hand us what it thinks we want from a long time trained as those stages of human development...retraining our brains as adults doesn't prohibit pain, fear from present day events triggering us right back to the last time we perceived our lives this way...

Unfairly powerless (teens), rebellious, perceiving being controlled, imprisoned...because teens (and most parents) don't see the truth...our children obey from choice...they agree with us to follow rules or against us to break them...still about them...as long as we don't make it about us. Like you did with your DD's desire to be independent from you at Disneyland for a set time, with a fall back.

I think we POJA in my marriage without understanding we're POJAing at all. I'll look to see more ways we do this, rather than focusing on the ways we don't.

How you feel cared for can differ greatly from how your FWH feels cared for. Those languages of love...knowing them, understanding and acting on them matter greatly, too.

I don't believe there is one definition of care, caring or loving. Only that we either choose to nor choose not to love.

LA

Post deleted by Detached_Care

As it was passed on to us, so we pass it on to our children...and they to their children...

Which is why I'm clamoring for marriage building, relationship lessons and personal recovery...to change that legacy...honestly...saving marriages for the sake of the children isn't only about providing an intact environment...

It is to example boundaries, respect, know what is abusive and what humans can truly be...not just what we have been taught to be...to teach to act, not react...and most importantly, to be aware of our selves...

Teen years (and I believe 12 is when girls start it) are for defining ourselves separate from our parents...and we usually do so by exhibiting their behavior the most...justification, entitlement...trying them on to see how they feel. I believe it is when we learn we choose our beliefs...and that's dangerous ground for everyone.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

His opinion is that your opinion is irrelevant...not the truth...his deep need to be right and not wrong, to judge...is his. Your choice to stop giving yours, is yours. Self-betrayal sucks mightily...hurts self, not others...deprives others of intimacy...it is like an offensive defense mechanism...cut 'em off and lock 'em up...trapping our selves.

This is a high conflict, intense change time in your life...this age, for you, your FWH and your daughter...all at that intersection of internal stuff, like volcanoes deciding to change who they are or not...and both decisions take kilo-tons of energy...lots of fear, risk, pain and volatility.

Thought I'd throw in that observation because you asked about typical teen behavior...which I took to mean comparison matters to you...if something is off target or normal...knowing where you're at right now, that's it isn't usual stress levels or an easy time seeming tough...but a convergence of life-changing events.

Usually when the most important decisions in life are made...at the worse time for clarity, understanding and what comes close to objectivity for humans.

I don't mind waiting for your posts...worth waiting for. Each time.

Thank you.

LA

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Respecting,

I see you are having good dialogue with LA. LA is a great poster and has helped many. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This is a good thing.

If you can please read or re-read the book His Needs/Her Needs along with Giver/Taker (both by Harley), it may help you get over some of that pent up anger those years of selfishness that has been allowed to grow in your H's attitude.

Did you help it get there? Probably, but not intentionally.

I will give my example. My upbringing by the very culture alone makes me a giver. The girls are trained at a very young age to be giving and caring.....nurturing to say the least. Then the Bible upbringing also taught respect for each person's areas of responsbility (i.e. parents, relatives, workmates, classmates, law enforcement, teachers, friends, etc.). Ok got that basics. Then I married a guy, who was by all outside views a very nice and kind man. Inside he was a very lonely and scared boy. His family never shared the same upbringing as mine and his mother basically ignored him because as the 'quiet one' in his family, her attention was spent on the child with psychological disorders (schizophrenia - older brother), then his parents decided to have a total of 12 children and well...... at #3 he was basically ignored. His own mother apologized to me AFTER we were married for NOT doing a better job on raising her son (manner wise and all that).

Ok....so I got a man, a outwardly nice guy but inside there was a lot of fixing up to do. I can do it. I am strong, I can change him.....hm.... while I knew I really couldn't change anyone....we loved each other right? We would do anything for each other right? WRONG! When we married, I started t/d all the nice wifey things. He loved it but in return, I got little. Very little. His ideas of pleasing me and my ideas of being pleased were in 2 totally different spheres. Same planet, different continents. Artic and Ant-artica. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

What t/d? I felt if I did more he would change. WRONG!!!! Years and the A period later, I read a book called Giver/TAKER. Wow..... I learned the more I did really handicapped him from feeling good about himself. While he never told me (his communication skills with family sucked), he felt that I outshined him in almost everything, except what he was good at. I didn't know nor mean to outshine anyone, I was just trying t/b a good wife. Therein laid the problem.....an ongoing vicious cycle of abuse...of sorts. My attempts to do more good kept him sinking lower and lower until finally he sought out an a psychotic OW nutcase. He had to go in the totally opposite direction of me to see my value. WHAT??!?!?! Yep, as irrational as it sounds, that is what happened.

The OW was highly controlling and while she pampered him it was only to what was to her advantage. The giving of herself was a facade. When the times got tough, she bailed and created havoc. That was and is her style. It caused him to have a false RO filed against him and only in this year has that RO been released.

However, I also read another book: His Needs/Her Needs this one is also by Dr Harley. In it I learned that communicating with H is different than communicating with how I need to have communication. So I embarked on a new plan.

A plan where I learned to do less (giver/taker) and learn how to communicate better (his needs/her needs). The combination has been highly beneficial since I was like you at a point where I no longer cared if my M survived or not. The A had taken it's toll in me after 3 years and I wanted out. The taker in me wanted a bigger claim in my life and it was getting harder to manage that taker who kept saying that I needed to be happy, loved and cared for not just only being a giver. The taker kept in balance with the giver is right. This world is off balanced and unfair so my giver and taker don't have equal portions but the taker has had a greater stake on how things are done.

As for the communication, H & I sat down and found a way to get each other's attention for small and large subjects. For us it starts out by asking the other: 'can I ask you a question?' This simple opening line was key in opening up dialogue. Now sometimes the answer is no but then a plan is set at that time for when the question can be addressed later down the line. The responsibility is passed on to the other spouse to engage in making a time commitment so the issue can be properly addressed.

It becomes eaiser with time. Yea, there are still communication issues to work out but now I get to show my frustration more and welp..... my family is certainly seeing and feeling my frustration and we are working through things together. Mom isn't just a spongemom (my son's name is NOT Bob - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ), I am a mom who can get frustrated at times and now they can understand how they can help me as I have been helping them.

Btw, I gave H the option to go and move back with his mom. It was a resounding No. I gave him the option to go live with the OW or anyone else....again a resounding NO. Hm.... very different attitude than when he was in the middle of his A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's progress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope this helps.

L.

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Respecting...

What an awesome post by Orchid! Wow. I really needed to read that...and yes, in my own convoluted way, that's what I meant.

Honest.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To his A...a poster here defined the ingredients needed to chose to have an affair really well:

Entitlement, fueled by resentment and a lack of respect.

I took this definition to heart...really hit me where I lived...even when I didn't know I lived there...and when someone comes to MB full of anger, resentment, like a walkaway wife, I hand them these same ingredients...because they do come from the Giver/Taker...and it may sound like bashing or blaming (which is not my intention), I ask the BS, are these ingredients in you, filling you up and thriving on what your WS did?

If we make our choices from entitlement, resentment or lack of respect, are we not being wayward in our own minds?

If we make our choices from our own code...as you have now committed (I heard) to not choose to act when you will resent (letting your Giver stab your Taker...both are healthy)...and knowing you have a lot of natural power which you haven't seen before...then will we experience a marriage which thrives in respect, mutuality and ownership?

If we choose our actions based on another's possible response, are we not living self-imposed betrayal; in essence, a manipulative life? And is it even ours, if it is predicated on another's choices?

Choosing to not have SF because in your own code, you will not betray yoruself or build resentment...and stating that choice makes a world of difference in living in radical honesty and ownership.

Choosing the same thing to get him to address the issue of touch may look the same from the outside...is it healthy for you on the inside? Does it serve you living authentically, in truth?

You're a heckuva woman, Respecting. Orchid shared very much what seems to me to parallel my own marriage...could it be I did that to shine more brightly than my DH? If I did, then he would love and value me, hopefully dependent on me, at the little cost of his own self-respect and self-honesty?

What a wonderful journey this has been back to our marriage...to hear what my DH thinks and feels, his perspective on so much that I didn't know...had previously assumed to feed my resentment monster...what freedom and joy I live in now with my DH...bumps and all...in this marriage together...not one against the other...no longer trying to get what I need out of him or make him fit my fantasy image of him, either.

Nor he, me.

My belief is that all humans have the right to choose terribly...to devastate, destroy, create and maintain...because we have choice. Inherent choice. No one can make us choose anything against our wills. No one. It has that horrific and awesome power; knowing we even have it is difficult...once we do, choosing what we do with it, from our own beliefs...is what changes everything.

LA

Respecting,
This statement really jumped out at me - that, and the info that your husband is massively resistant to POJA.

I see that LA reached the same conclusion that I did. You are married to a Passive/Aggressive (P/A) man.

Please, please look at the links in my sig line. Those two items did a complete turnaround at my house in just a few weeks, where six *years* of MB could do little because the underlying problem of P/A behaviour on his part had not been dealt with.

Please do take a look.
Mulan

The man you originally gave your vows to, is this the same man? Why would you be commited to one who is NOT commited to you and your family? How long do you expect that to last? If you can't make a one sided commitment last indefinitely, then why prolong the agony?

Do you really want t/b married to a WS?

L.

Post deleted by Cherished

DC,

U need to be able to tell the difference. It is the WS that doesn't care for you or even the children. A real H w/b incensed to have such an uncaring clod around his family.

Learn to tell the difference and learn how to react to each. That way, the WS can't give you his guilt or blame. It will frustrate the WS to pieces and that is a good thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Though not necessarily MB endorsed, my motto is: Plan A your real spouse and plan B the WS. This is easier done when your mind and heart are in sync and you have a plan going.

The WS isn't worth being nice to. Your real spouse and parent of your children is worth being nice to. See the difference? Even your children know the difference. The WS will stubbornly try to get you to be nice to the WS so he can torture you more. Illogical? That is the mindset or lack there of thinking pattern of the WS.

L.