I quite agree.
The "honeymoon phase" after an A is I think a good example of that.

Ark,


That is why I wish I could remember where I saw the article.



I do not know which is true but in either case the stereotype exists which could be the source of the problem. It seems like a chicken or egg arguement. Is it scientifically true that there are reasons for it or is it a societally based issue. Either way the perception and therefore the problem may still exist.
Here is an interesting link regarding society and sexuality

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12970326/


I absolutely agree with that statment.


Those things can be contributing factors into it yes. My FWW and I have great SF. I mean great. For both of us.
Yesterday I worked all day and then watched the kids while she was out. I played touch football with the kids for an hour. My shirt was drenched when I was done. I told FWW I was in the mood. She said I am really tired right now. She asked me how I could be in the mood she was exhausted and I did so much more then her.

So how about this. For me as a man. I cannot honestly say I have ever been too tired for SF. There might have been a time but I honestly don't remember it. If it is in the middle of the afternoon and our kids are not home and I am in the mood if there are other kids outside screaming it dampens my FWW's mood. If we have someone spending the night again no problem for me but her yes. But when we do she gets out of bed and thanks me.

Now when I personally have really good SF the night before my mind wanders back to that and I want it that night. She will say we just had SF last night.

Every man that has heard that statement please raise your hand!!

Is it scientific or societal. I don't know.


Again this to me is chicken and egg. Is it replayed over and over because it has a foundation in truth or is there a foundation of truth because it is played over and over again.

I am not saying it is right wrong or indifferent. I am saying the stereotype exists. Which in turn can be a contributing factor because it can be considered normal.

Even without societal norms within a relationship there could be one partner that wants SF more then the other. Man or Woman. If my W wanted SF more then I did I would have no problem with her masturbating.

Techie,

Not apples to apples my friend. Fantasizing and imagination are far different from acting.

Porn is becoming main stream and almost acceptable.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9504659/

Kinda knocked my socks off to read the stats on how many people admitted to viewing porn.

Again it is visualization me are visually stimulated. I don't know what all men think when they watch porn.

I know it is not the same though as what a man thinks when having a PA.

I don't believe looking at it makes one fantasize about being with that particular woman in that particular image. It could simply be a reminder of being in that same sexual situation and helping relive it in your mind.

I agree that looking at porn isn't necessarily a problem, but it certainly is if the spouse has a problem with it. It should be adressed.

Could be a lack of SF. Perhaps he was looking at the images and remembering being in that same situation or position with his wife, which allowed him to meet that need. Just a thought.

We need more clarification on the original post. All the posts since have been speculative.

To that I say, "it depends".
Fantacising about sex with an EA type lover, I think you will agree, is devastating to a marriage. What makes it wrong or right, is not soley "did he/she insert bodypart A into bodypart B".


The worst thing about sex outside of marriage, is the damage it does to the marital relationship, because sex is a bonding. What makes overall bad for the marriage, is the taking away of unique intimacy from the husband/wife bond.
Having "physical sex" with other people, merely adds the risk of STDs. oh, and pregnancy, of course.

"Porn is becoming main stream and almost acceptable."

Divorce is already "main stream", at the 50% rate. That doesnt make it "good for marriage", now does it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are making the assumption that porn is fantasizing about being with another person not a mere visualization of an act.

The statue of David is completely nude. That is considered art. However the visualization of that may have a stimulating effect on some people I doubt they fantasize about being with the statue.

I agree that an EA is absolutely damaging to an M. The reason being whatever energy you are putting into that EA is taking away from your S. Now if my S does not want SF that night and I want SF and I am a visually stimulated person am I taking away something from my S? How can I take something away that they don't want? Now if my S wanted SF and I choose instead to watch porn and masturbate then there is a problem possibly an addiction.



Porn however has not been linked to the deterioration of an M like divorce has.

Again some studies actually indicate that porn can help in an M. Some studies actually indicat porn can hurt a marriage.

I agree though that if one partner is uncomfortable with it then the other should respect that wish.

There are graphic self help books about SF. It can actually lead to a more staisfying experience.

How many women complain that their H doesn't do what they like? He won't do this or he doesn't do that etc. Now read a book and find out what you need to do to satisfy your partner.

Now what if the H occasionally indulged in porn before the M and the W knew about it then figured she could change that later. Not fair IMVHO>

"just looking" at porn, can get someone aroused. However, if that person looks at porn, to first get aroused, and continues through orgasm, that person is 99% likely to be fantacising about having sex with that person, or at least that person's body parts.

"visualization of an act"? oh, that's way too conveniently scientific and objective-sounding. But using pornography for masterbation is oh-so-subjective. lets more fully expand your own definition: It is "visualization of sex with someone other than your spouse."
there is nothing "mere" about that.

consider the fundamental precept of advertising: it's all about getting the consumer to imagine, "hey, that product looks good: wouldnt it look good with ME!"
The ad is not successful unless it can inbue the viewer with a desire to have the product themselves.

Similarly, pornography is not gratifying, unless the viewer has a desire to possess/have sex with the body they are viewing.


I defy you to find pornographic photos of someone you find truely repulsive, doing "an act" that you find appealing, and tell me that you are turned on by viewing them.

The general case of using pornography for masterbation purposes, (looking at some naked woman/man that you find sexually appealing) is not about some highbrow conceptual "viewing an act". If so, then viewing pencil drawings of the karma sutra would be enough for the person.

(there is some room for debate in the realm of fetish porn. but I dont think that is appropriate for this thread)

Oh, yes, I think so. But I said not all Christians do. I don't
like generalizations.


Well, your approach of coming up with a verse of scripture here already says
a lot to me. You interpret this as something Jesus said, literally,
correct? The Bible to you is the Word of God.

Whereas I see a memory of someone (Matthew the evangelist) probably written
down quite some time after it was actually said (IF it was actually said like that in the first place). I even read just now that
he was supposed to have been dictated by an angel, as can supposedly be witnessed in early Christian art.

I don't believe the Bible, in its current form, dropped out of the sky or
something. The early Christian church decided at Ecumenical Councils
which of the many writings and gospels were canonical and which were not. And I do believe they left out things that they couldn't use when building their big, centrally leaded church. That's why the whole notion of interpreting these writings literally is alien to me, especially when looking at the Old Testament and its oral tradition.

Is this verse (or rather its message) present in all 4 gospels? I don't
know, I haven't researched it.


I would rather say that you KNOW it is offensive towards your H (and you admit your thoughts and fantasies were of XOM, someone you had an EA with) and you BELIEVE it is offensive towards God. I'd like to see the word BELIEVE used
more often, instead of seeing beliefs stated as fact.


Yes, I think many non-Christians would say the same. I'm not arguing your
position, you see, I am arguing generalizations and facts versus beliefs.

LB

Techie,

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not agree with your 99% statment. I see you will not agree to my side.

There is not really a way to prove either side. You have your opinion which I respect and I have mine.

Good enough.

HURTINGLESS!!!!!!!!!!!

how [color:"orange"]CUTE [/color] is this statement...

Porn however has not been linked to the deterioration of an M like divorce has.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

now look I KNOW I am not one to talk since I can't spell my way out of a paper bag when I'm on a roll...

but I do believe dan quayle once said the same thing....

ARKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In her one and only post, Desperatelytrying gave two tiny tidbits of insight into her situation:

1. That her husband's affair left her feeling inadequate... she hasn't yet healed from that... and the porn use is rubbing salt in that wound.

2. Her husband stated that he's been doing it for a long time and doesn't think he could stop if he tried.

Those are the only two clues as to what's "really" going on here.

Based on clue #2, I don't think it's entirely outrageous that some posters have suggested that there might be a sexual addiction/compulsion factor here.

Ark & Techie -- with regard to ifeelcheatedon's thread:

If the advice being given was that she needed to re-establish physical intimacy with her husband for her own sake, his sake, the sake of the marriage, and even the sake of their child... I say... "here, here!" I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with that.

But it sounded to me that some of the advice to her, and to desperatelytrying in this thread, is more along the lines that the women need to have more sex with their husbands to help their husbands stay away from the porn.

In ifeel's case, she stated that her husband had used porn behind her back when there was a lot of SF... and when there was very little SF... So it simply doesn't make sense to me to advise someone in that situation to ramp-up the sex. I can certainly see how it would improve their relationship in general. But, based on his previous behavior, why would anyone think it would compell him to quit the porn this time? (Techie, thank you for clarifying about the "blame/fault" thing. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, or in anyone else's.)

In dt's case... she hasn't said ANYTHING about the level of SF/intimacy in her marriage. Yet there's all this speculation about it... and talk about the different sex drives of men and women. And assumptions. And generalizations. Why is all this not equally as surprising as the suggestion that there MIGHT be an addiction component to the situation... based on something the dt's husband actually DID say?

--SC

Thank you all for your insights. They have been very diverse and enlightening. I've been dying to participate in the discussion, but have been locked out by the evil, dreaded "page not found."

I've been asked to add some context to my question. I asked it because it is a subject about which I have no understanding, especially since I have never done either myself, so I don't understand the male "need" for it. I am information gathering with an open mind, with a willingness to try overcoming my upbringing to accept this if it is normal. I have less of a problem with the masturbation than I do with the porn.

Regarding the state of the marriage. We are pretty much normalized, though if the subject of the A comes up, I am always surprised to hear that he hasn't thought of it or OW in years, while it enters my mind every day. We are nearly joined at the hip, spend most of our time together and have a lot of fun.

It bears mentioning that I have not once turned him down for SF since the A, and frequency is about weekly. A couple of months ago, I talked to him about my not being satisfied with the frequency, which made it particularly hurtful to find the computer activity.

Having reflected on my gut reaction to his withholding info, sneaking around, looking at images of other women, it feels to me like cheating.

I have conducted a vigorous Plan A since Dday 1, and continue to do so. Now I'm not sure if my motivation is entirely love, or do I focus intensly on his needs out of fear that if I don't fill them perfectly, someone else will. How pathetic is that?

There are many needs that I have expressed for romance, emotional intimacy, spiritual growth. The response is "I've never been that way." So, while I'm working my a$$ off, I can't expect the same in return, because there's an OW out there who is willing to hold him to a lower standard, and validate qualities that I don't approve of.

I implemented one of the male suggestions this weekend, and invited him to "watch." Not easy at first. He couldn't break eye contact to look. When I challenged him, he told me it was because he has so much respect for me. So, does this make me unworthy of respect? Ultimately, he was able to get into it, and I would recommend it to anyone for a change of pace!

Now this is really funny, since years ago in couples therapy, he claimed I was inhibited. And it was him all along.

Okay, bottom line: I have trouble not taking it personally that he wants to look at porn, especially since I have tried so hard to be the S he wants. I also can't separate my view of the industry from the fact that we have a 19 year old daughter, and all of the "actresses" are someone's daughters. The biggest horror is the realization that my role in our M is based, at least in part, on the continued fear of losing him-I really do feel pathetic.

A long ramble. Hope some of you can fine tune your advice based on where I'm coming from. Ark, I have especially appreciated your pulling the thread back from the knee-jerk.

Desperatly,

Then you meet one of my criteria for it being a problem. You are not happy with the frequency and therefore his actions are taking away from you.

Maybe try this. Dear H. I do not mind if you do it but please ask me if I am in the mood first. My mentatlity is I love being with you. When you have masturbated on some occasions I was dying for SF. I couldn't wait to be with you...... See you are making him feel completely desired.

I know he doesn't make you feel that way all of the time but maybe you taking the lead will help and he will reciprocate.

I understand you taking it personally because you are trying to be the S he wants. That would be hard for me too. Sometimes I kinda laugh at the whole thing because the women look at the other women and think I can never live up to that. Well flip it and think to your self I doubt she would even be interested in my H. It is true.

I lived in an apartment and one of my neighbors was a stripper. She used to laugh at the guys made fun of them about how pathetic they were for thinking they had a chance with her.

I know this might sound bad because of your daughters and stuff but have you ever tried to take the taboo out of it? Maybe watch with him one time. Even if you are not comfortable with it and don't like it. You can simply state "I don't see what that does for you but that's just my opinion.

Maybe the sneaking around is part of it. Just thinking out loud here. Take that away and it might lessen the excitement.

I will tell you one thing you have no worry about losing him to a porn star, or probably any of the other women he is looking at.

Like I said I can't understand how men are with someone that does that for a living. The last thing I would want is for my FWW to walk into a party or something with me and one of the guys saying hey weren't you in......insert catchy porn name there.

Hurtingless-- I don't worry about losing him to a porn star. I have an issue with the OW validating him and pumping his ego in spite of any shortcomings. After all, the reason she was with him was because he was willing to lie cheat and steal. I expect more from him. Doesn't it follow that OW made it easier to be lazy about his personal standards? Why wouldn't that be attractive? DT

Because the type of person that is ok with a person with low personal standards probably also has low personal standards.

I think that FWS or WS have a small pool of immoral people to chose from. We all knew the girl in highschool that all the guys liked because she had no morals. None of them wanted anything serious with them though. She couldn't understand why nobody wanted to be her boyfriend. Well she was a [email]s@#$.[/email] Who wants to be seen with that.

All OP's validate the WS that's part of the game. I mean really what are they supposed to say. You are a cheating scumbag you should go back and tell your BS what you are doing.

Plus do you really think the OP really see's their shortcomings? I mean the OM probably only needed to know one thing from my FWS that she was willing to betray me for him. That is a hugh ego stroke why not stroke the WS back.

" I have not once turned him down for SF since the A,"

Good for you!!

If the porn bothers you, however, this is not at all the same as asking him, "dear, when you feel the urge to use porn, would you try coming to me first?"

He may not have internalized that that is an option. he sounds a little inhibited, and may think that asking you for sex more than once a week is out of bounds. although I guess maybe not now that you said you were not happy with the (lack of?) frequency...

and/or... maybe he's inhibited about asking you to ... erm... "get all tarted up", as they say in England.
The porn he looks at, might represent a sluttier side of sex that he isnt comfortable asking you for.


Outstanding!! well done!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
and this supports what I said about him not being comfortable asking you to get slutty. You've now giving him an inkling that this could be an option with you. Good for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


If you can bring yourself to do it... and if he is interested in it... you might offer to let him take pictures of you in any position he likes.
(in exchange for him ditching the "other" pictures he has on his computer or whatever)

You may have to prepare yourself for positions/outfits that you "just dont understand", but if he's happy with the results... you will be one step closer to a porn-free husband, if that is your goal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One problem with photos- they can wind up in the wrong hands. Besides we all share a family computer...

It seems I may be on the right track. Now I need to be able to focus on the ancilliary issue which is how to get him to understand that his willingness to change a few things to meet my ENs is needed to help me feel safe and loved. I still fear being replaced if I ask too much of him. I know it's irrational, but it's always below the surface.

Thanks for the encouragement Techie. I welcome any ideas on creativity in the bedroom, or jacuzzi, or dining room...
tee-hee!

If they are ancilliary then just ask him to do it. I will say if I had a choice I would want to know what I could do to make my W happier.

As far as being replaced I don't think it is irrational. Quick question what is keeping you from replacing him? Probably because even with his flaws it wouldn't be that easy. You need to think to yourself that you are irreplacable(sp).

If my FWW wants to replace me I am ok with that. I think I am a Ming Vase and if she would like to go down to big lots and buy another vase fine. She will never get another one like me though. I am one in a billion. I know this so it doesn't haunt me. You need to know that too. Once you realize that you will lose that fear.

What is it about you that makes you irreplacable? Find that and you will lose that fear.

Well first of all, I am amazed at the number of porn users on this thread. Sodom and Gamora have been put to shame. Read into that as you will. With that said, I'm going to be radical in my view.

I believe all of you have valid and right points, and all of you have wrong and unjust points.

First of all, the word of God can be so misconstrued that we can make it what we want it to be. PEOPLE THINK, Satan literally Read the word of God to Jesus, when he was tempting him. What does that tell us.. The bible can be used as a weapon for BOTH GOOD AND EVIL. Going around and reading scripture to people, hitting them on the head with it, saying that their actions are going to anger God, etc, etc, accomplishes absolutely nothing, and God should thump you on the head a couple times. IF GOD's Angry, he can deal with the people he's angry at himself, he doesn't need us to make things worse. (Read Job) Job realized this and I love Job (the book) for this reason. He complained, whined, and cried to god for losing everything, for being plagued for being treated like dirt. In the end, he god told it to him, are we god, or is god, god, can we run the universe better than god? what's better the person that's run the universe for like eternity, or us measly humans that have been here, a drop in time?

So, moving on. Porn, masterbation, etc.

The true test of any addiction has been in the past: "can you quit if you want to?"

Let me ask any man on this planet that has certain anatomy and hormones, can quit at will? I would venture to guess there is no man on this planet, that's physically and mentally able to do so, that can quit masterbating 100% with or without a lover. With that sad, IS there a man on this planet that can do his duty without thinking about something or someone? Again I would venture to guess no.

Women, just expect that because they don't need sexual satisfaction in the same way as men, that men should just be the same as women. GOD DIDN"T MAKE MEN WOMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe if our hormone levels, drive, needs, were different, more like women, we could actually agree on this. But, I completely reject the philosophy that self gratification without -- changing--- mental imagery, is possible. Not to mention, some images could be degrading to the wife even if they were of the wife. So, I totally reject that, thinking about the wife makes masterbation to something o.k, and reject that masterbation is wrong.

What if I pictured a spouse doing degrading acts for or with me, does that make my mental images o.k. because they include my wife? Now, does using mental images of a nameless face or body, but a socially acceptable action make me a bad husband?

If we're going to debate masterbation and porn, then we must debate in the context of society, culture, and so on. 500 years ago, it was o.k. to have sex with 15 year olds, and if you weren't married by age 16 you were considered a shrew or hag. now, we go to prison if we consider a 15 or 16 year old girl in this way.

There's so many factors.

Is the action (masterbation or porn) committed in context to The Wife's actions? By this I mean, IS the spouse denying sex? (I"ve just gone through 7 years of sex at the most 4 times a year... Just imagine how starved and useless I feel!! ) Does that justify me going out and finding a women to satisfy the need? I don't know, some would use corinthians to say that yes I am justified because, if one partner withholds sex from the other without mutual consent, one will be opened to adultery. Maybe that's o.k. then for me to have committed adultery, I never did, not physically or with a live person online. Not once did I, was I tempted, a little, did anyone make the temptation possible directly, no, could i have sought it out? Yes? Did I? NO! So, should porn if the spouse disapproves of it, be used to "fix" the issue of the lack of SF in the Marriage?

I would disagree with the use of Porn to replace SF and not for moral reasons either. For one, Porn IS NOT Sexual Fulfillment. It is not fulfilling. As some counselors used to tell us "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." Replace that with "Porn is used as a temporary sexual fix for a permanent marriage problem". It does not fix or address the issues that exist in the marriage. My W and I have lived through 7 years of marriage as roommates, we were never very sexual even when we first got married. we had nothing to look forward to either. We just were really good friends with her having no desire for SF.

I avoided the problems by giving myself a false sense of fulfillment with masterbation and/or porn. I won't lie about that, b/c it's critical to KNOW WHY porn is not good in a marriage. It doesn't fix anything. In fact it prolongs the problems. God doesn't hate me for it. He didn't strike me down with lightning. But, I lost of what could have been the greatest years of my life to it. THAT IS WHAT I REGRET!!!! Porn gave me a false sense that everything in the Marriage is fine. I found a way to get my Sexual fix, while being able to keep my W happy. because she never wanted me physically. I'm just learning now, that there are real problems we avoided for 7 years. If I had not had porn and had actually confronted the fact that there's an issue here, then neither my W or I would be where we are today. Which is me in counseling, her trying to figure out how to make this Marriage work, and so many other issues that we can't count them all.

We have more issues than the number of times we've had sex in our marriage for the last 7 years.

It never hurt my W that I know of, in fact she encouraged it, because she didn't want to meet my needs, so she encouraged me to go watch some porn. It allowed her to not have to face meeting my needs either. Now, we're picking shatterred pieces of glass all over, what could have been a beautiful reflection of what God intended marriage to be is now a billion shards of mirror on the floor!!!

Is porn adulterous, I believe it can be, depending on how it's used, if it's hidden from the spouse, if the spouse hates it, if it's an afront to the spouse (intentionally damaging) then yes it is a form of adultery or abuse.

Is it ALWAYS adulterous? NO? In my case it wasn't seen as cheating by either of us.

Is porn usually damaging to a relationship, I would have to say yes. If the spouses are focussed on SATISFYing each other then porn should not even be a desire. Satisfaction implies that that need is met in full, no feeling of "hunger" left over. If SF is met, then hunger for porn should be very minimal if at all.

Will men stop masterbating, or can they? I don't think any living, healthy, man can.

Can porn ever be a positive thing in a relationship? I doubt it. . . . . . It avoids the real problems, and delay.

I'm done now... I hope people realize that they have been debating this issue all wrong. God wants us to be happy, he doesn't strike people down with lightning. He can take care of himself and us. He doesn't need us taking care of his people for him... He is fully capable. . . .

you are wrong.
For a man who is fully satisfied with his wife, and gets full "satisfaction" from his wife, masterbation is not neccessary, or even desired.

speaking as a man, who used to be in that situation.

DesperatelyTrying,

Good to see you posting again.
I'm glad you found an entry to communicate with your H.

A suggestion I'd like to make for you to feel more empowered (and not think about how some OW would do "better") is to dig into your own phantasies.
An interesting phantasy is becoming an other woman (not OW.. not in that meaning) and playing that out, as if you were both single again etc.
Find out what turns YOU on.
If you can find things that your H can relate to..
Wow..
You guys are going to need babysitters regularly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.