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#1747125 09/13/06 11:40 PM
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Hey, Guys! Got a couple of things that I need to say to you, although I'm not sure how to say them. Anyway, there is no intent to offend you, although I AM taking issue with some things y'all have posted.

First:

WAT, I've been reading your posts for a very long time, and I think you are a good man who gives a lot of good advice.

I understand that you are not a Christian, and that you take issue with some our Christian viewpoints. That is your right, of course; but, at times, it seems that you misunderstand some things that are said. For instance, if someone says, "As a Christian, we should not ____(fill in the blank)," I often see you post a seemingly angry response to the effect that just because someone is not a Christian doesn't mean that he/she is going to do ____(the fill-in-the-blank thing), or that one doesn't have to be a Christian to know right from wrong.

Of course, one doesn't have to be a Christian to know right from wrong. However, being a Christian does mean that we should examine ourselves for any wrongful behavior...of which we may not previously have been aware. Actually, that is true of ANYONE, IMHO. But, as Christians, we are supposed to strive to live as Christ-like as we can, so it is only natural for Christians to caution other Christians against sinful behavior. There is no personal attack being made upon you or other non-Christians in these remarks.

But, WAT, usually, your responses are to Christians who are posting to others...either other Christians or someone who appears to be interested in hearing the Christian viewpoint. As I just mentioned above, there is no personal attack being made against you that I can see.

WAT, I don't know what has turned you against God. You've had a lot going on in your life, and I am so sorry about it all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> I've had a lot going on in my life, too...and from the number of posters on MB, there is a LOT going on in a LOT of people's lives. Many of us have found a great deal of comfort and security in our faith, while others apparently haven't, for one reason or another.

I am not going to try to convert you to Christianity because I respect that you do not want to hear it. However, I do want you to understand that you do not know what my experience is, nor what the experiences of other Christians are, that have led us to believe and to KNOW that God does exist and that Jesus Christ died for our sins because of His great love for us. For me, suffice it to say that it was during a time of tremendous grief and ANGER at God, and it was the most amazing thing! I never expected it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So, WAT, I feel that it is very disrespectful for anyone to disparage the faith of Christians who are posting to others and who are not, in any way, trying to insult or convert the person doing the disparaging.

2Long,

I can relate to your long-term situation. It's not quite the same, as I believe that my FWH probably had several "flings" over the course of our marriage. He did stop cheating years ago, but seems to still have the mindset of a WS. In fact, I think he has your FWW beat for sheer stubborness!

In regard to your post to Forever Hers on Heartsore's thread: I believe you said that he was trying to educate Heartsore's wife through Heartsore. I don't think that is exactly true. I believe that Heartsore's wife is a professed Christian (although a wayward one at the moment!), and my take on FH's post was that he was addressing the need for her to be also be reconciled with God, and that the counseler may cause more damage with bad advice. I don't think that he was urging Heartsore to browbeat his wife into repenting before God and reconciling to Him, or anything remotely like that. Heartsore's very loving Plan A and his faith are what I believe will bring his WW back to the marriage, and THEN, with Christian guidance and Heartsore's spiritual leadership in their family, his wife can make her soul right with God. However, she needs help from other Christians all the way to help this process along. Those who urge her to look only to herself and her worldly needs will not be much help to her. After all, looking only to herself and her worldly needs are part of what got her into this mess in the first place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Lady Clueless; 09/14/06 01:04 AM.

"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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Cool! Most of that is for WAT 2 address! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't disagree with anything you've said (or even with anything FH said, in context) before this:

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However, she needs help from other Christians all the way to help this process along.

I agree! BUT, (and it's' a big butt!), my point was that she's not in a receptive position at all right now. I don't know anyone who can get "through 2 her" at this point, except her God and herself. And if past MB experience is any indication, she's going 2 have 2 hit bottom before she'll listen 2 her God.

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Those who urge her to look only to herself and her worldly needs will not be much help to her. After all, looking only to herself and her worldly needs are part of what got her into this mess in the first place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Also agreed. But if hitting bottom so she can listen 2 wisdom requires that she explore her worldly needs in order 2 find out how empty of real reward that path truly is, then that may be what she needs 2 go through.

I wasn't advocating that she get her worldly needs met, though. But she may have 2 try that 2 realize how fruitless a persuit it truly is.

Then, she can come back 2 her faith with some sincerity! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

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I agree! BUT, (and it's' a big butt!), my point was that she's not in a receptive position at all right now. I don't know anyone who can get "through 2 her" at this point, except her God and herself. And if past MB experience is any indication, she's going 2 have 2 hit bottom before she'll listen 2 her God.

LC - I agree with 2long about this. My wife had no interest in the things of God until she ended her affair and came home. Then she was crushed by the enormity of what she did of course but really, she will need to hit bottom before her relationship with God means anything to her.


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2Long and BigK,

I understand what you're talking about, and I agree that is the likely course; however, a wise Christian may, without "pushing", be able to say the right things to help her get a "jump start", don't you think? Maybe sort of doing a "reverse babble" for Christians?

Sometimes, a Christian does not even have to actually speak of God to get a Christian point across. Sometimes, just knowing that the person you're talking to IS a Christian helps, even if the Christian doesn't actually delve into the topic of your soul. Maybe that only works if guilt is already starting to kick in...I dunno!

Anyway, I'm not sure I'm making sense, as it's past time for me to get to bed. Let me think on how to better explain what I mean and get back to y'all on it later.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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Well LC, if a Christian WS was in a position to be influenced like that, they wouldn't be ignoring that still small voice would they. My wife avoided church during her affair, avoided God. It was no use to her till the affair ended. It's funny though, the Sunday before d-day, she was in tears during Church - must ask her about that. Still didn't end her affair though.


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Actually, a number of posters have come right out and claimed that without a belief in god people have no reason to distinguish right from wrong. WAT has posted on numerous occasions that an internal moral compass does not require one to be a Christian or any other religion.

Why do you use the expression "turned against God," as if belief in god is the default position? Atheism for me is a reasoned decision. For my father, agnoticism was a reasoned decision. As a pre-teen and teenager, my father and I spent many hours debating and clarifying our points of view. You can not assume that non-belief is a result of some disaster that the person in question blamed on a supreme being. I have been an atheist since I was 13 or younger - from the time I was old enough to think about it one way or the other. I know that I dropped out of Unitarian Sunday School after one day in 5th grade because they had us singing songs that implied the divinity of Jesus, when I knew full well that that was in conflict with the definition of "unitarian."

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Res ipsa loquitur

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Well LC, if a Christian WS was in a position to be influenced like that, they wouldn't be ignoring that still small voice would they. My wife avoided church during her affair, avoided God. It was no use to her till the affair ended. It's funny though, the Sunday before d-day, she was in tears during Church - must ask her about that. Still didn't end her affair though.

Yes, a Christian who is willfully engaged in wrongdoing does generally tend to avoid church, or Christians whom they believe may be "sitting in judgment" of them. This is where, I think, having other Christians reach out to her in Christian LOVE, without necessarily entering into any discussions with her about her sin situation, can help make that small, still voice get a little louder. By not actually addressing the sin itself (until the time is right), the Christian avoids giving the Christian who is in sin a reason to get angry and turn him away. Does that make sense to you?

I do know that at times (before the event which totally convinced me that God does indeed exist and love me), when I was not feeling so hot about my own actions (nothing like an affair, but still sin, all the same) and avoiding church, having other Christians who may or may not have known what was going on but reached out to me anyway, DID make that small, still voice speak louder to me.

I just got up after not having such a good night's rest (nothing serious...just dealing with a slightly messed up back), so I'm still fuzzy this morning. Maybe later, I'll be able to post with more clarity.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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Hi, Nellie,

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Actually, a number of posters have come right out and claimed that without a belief in god people have no reason to distinguish right from wrong.

I agree that some people of posted things that sound as though that is what they believe...and a few may indeed believe it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . Without going back to look for every specific post like this, I will venture to say that it seems to me that most of these posts have been in discussions of what we, as Christians, should or should not do. We often don't make ourselves very clear in our posts, nor do we always think about how what we post may really sound before we hit the submit button. I certainly need to work on doing that...maybe by not posting when I'm sleepy or dealing with a painful back?

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WAT has posted on numerous occasions that an internal moral compass does not require one to be a Christian or any other religion.

I certainly agree with this. There are many whom I consider to be good and kind people who seem to have no religious faith at all. However, if/when I (or another Christian) posts to another that a true Christian should or will do such-and-such, it does not mean that we are saying that ONLY a Christian should/will do it. When I say "such-and-such", I am thinking of general acts of morality, and not things that apply only to people of faith, such as prayer, Bible study, etc. IMHO, WAT often seems to seems to seek implications in certain posts that are not actually there.

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Why do you use the expression "turned against God," as if belief in god is the default position?

I apologize for that expression, Nellie. I'm probably wrong about this, but I was under the impression that, at some point, WAT had been involved in a Christian church, and it seems to me that his issues with Christian posters only began a few years ago. That may not be true, and I was wrong to assume so.

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Atheism for me is a reasoned decision.

That is a decision that only you can make. We each have free will to decide what we will/will not believe.

For me, Christianity is also a reasoned decision, but it also is backed up with an actual salvation experience that came at a time when I was in deep despairing grief, anger, and raging against God. However, I was seeking answers while I was raging, so maybe I had not completely closed my heart and mind to God. At any rate, I got my answer, and I'm so glad that I did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I hope your children and you are doing well. I want you to know how much I admire your devotion to your children and how hard you work to provide for them and their education under the adverse and frustrating circumstances in which you found yourself. I'm sure that your children love and appreciate you all the more for doing so. If some of them don't quite appreciate it now (teenagers sometimes don't!), they will; but, I'm quite sure the love for you is there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

((((Nellie))))


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Yes, they do. Although not everyone interprets it the same way.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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LC - I hesitated to reply at all. I believe you had good intentions. But in some ways you have unwittingly confirmed my very points.

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WAT, I don't know what has turned you against God.


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I'm probably wrong about this, but I was under the impression that, at some point, WAT had been involved in a Christian church, and it seems to me that his issues with Christian posters only began a few years ago.


I do not normally discuss my personal beliefs. These ought to be private, IMHO, between an individual and his/her guiding entity/diety/God/Flying Spaghetti Monster/whatever.

Suffice to say your assumptions about me are astonishingly incorrect.

But you are correct that I started having "issues" with certain posters "several years" ago - when posters on this forum strated to more overtly wear their faiths on their sleeves and apparently and unavoidably began slipping into careless practices of intolerance towards others. The inferences are frequently there that unless one is Christian one's morals are suspect, one's truthfulness is doubtful, and Godlessness equates to hedonism.

I will continue to point these out when I spot them.

I can't even count the number of times I've tried to refute the very silly notion that unless one has "authoritative" morals, this means your "unauthoritative" morals are automatically variable and you'll just do whatever you want,
damn the torpedos,let's go kick a puppy. Sickening. Intolerant. Bigoted.

What's worse, having no authoritative morals or not following them if you do?

Yes, I can get angry when faced with religious bigotry. So should you. It IS bigotry when a poster makes obvious inferences or overtly draws denigrating comparisons to others' faiths or non-faiths. The fact that some don't recognize it when it occurs makes it worse. It matters not if a poster is addressing a like-minded poster. This is a public forum.

You said -
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But, WAT, usually, your responses are to Christians who are posting to others...either other Christians or someone who appears to be interested in hearing the Christian viewpoint.

Try reading it like this:

"But, WAT, usually, your responses are to whites who are posting to others...either other whites or someone who appears to be interested in hearing the white viewpoint."

What would you call it if in doing so the poster denigrated blacks? Hmmmmmmmmm?

I do not deny that I may have a low threshold for intolerant speech - at least you may perceive this. I imagine that in most cases the poster intends no offensiveness. But like beauty, it's in the eyes of the beholder. The Golden Rule directs us to be sensitive and considerate. Even when the intent is not present, the perception may be.

JMHO

WAT

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""What's worse, having no authoritative morals or not following them if you do?"" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> AMEN BROTHER!!

""The inferences are frequently there that unless one is Christian one's morals are suspect, one's truthfulness is doubtful, and Godlessness equates to hedonism.""

[color:"red"] And if one believes the earth is older than 10,000 years, that person is going to heck in a hand basket! [/color]


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The bigotry towards Christians by some here is CRYSTAL clear as well, and it is VERY offensive to me personally, and I suspect to other Christians as well...It always seems condescending, many times it is somewhat veiled aggression, and on other occasions it is appears as blatant ridicule...

It does not surprise me in the least however, it is foretold in the Bible after all...


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WAT, you continue to be consistent, I give you that. And your consistent twisting of what is said and reinterpreting it in your own “worldview” is why I decided to take away a distracting “target” for you from Heartsore’s thread. Never mind the fact that he professes to be a believer, you can’t separate the “spiritual in Christ” from your human “viewpoint.”

So, even though I know it won’t “get through to you,” let’s look at your current “stream of consciousness” arguments. We’ve had similar discussions in the past, so I am fairly certain it will again fall on deaf ears, even if those ears are full of human morality.


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But you are correct that I started having "issues" with certain posters "several years" ago - when posters on this forum strated to more overtly wear their faiths on their sleeves and apparently and unavoidably began slipping into careless practices of intolerance towards others. The inferences are frequently there that unless one is Christian one's morals are suspect, one's truthfulness is doubtful, and Godlessness equates to hedonism.

You persist in this twisting of what is said to “make the point you want to make.” One more time, anyone CAN choose a set of Standards, Morals, whatever term you want to use, for THEMSELVES. The issue is NOT the ability to choose a set of behavioral standards, morals, or ethics. The issue is twofold, WHAT standards are chosen as “superior” to others for the individual, and WHY should those standards be the “standards of choice” for anyone other than the individual. In other words, what imbues your chosen selection of morals as being “best,” and by logical extension, “best” for others? The natural implication that goes along with your own selection is that “other choices” are inferior to yours. So the logical question would be “why?”

“By who’s ‘authority’ is a set of standards applicable to ALL and not open to ‘pick and choose or ignore completely’ by an individual’s “right to choose” for themselves?



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I will continue to point these out when I spot them.

And this is the answer to the above questions. WAT is the “supreme authority” and JUDGE of everyone else. There is no higher authority than WAT.



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I can't even count the number of times I've tried to refute the very silly notion that unless one has "authoritative" morals, this means your "unauthoritative" morals are automatically variable and you'll just do whatever you want,
damn the torpedos,let's go kick a puppy. Sickening. Intolerant. Bigoted.

Again you twist what has been said because you want to retain the “authority” for yourself AND to impose your choices on others as the only “authoritative one.”

Let’s set the record straight one more time, WAT. ANYONE, any individual, CAN choose to behave according to so-called “good morals” (your “Golden Rule” example, for example). It may even be highly desirable that others also behave in a similar manner. But you don’t, under the rules of “freedom of choice” and “individual rights” have the right, much less the “authority,” to declare or JUDGE anyone else’s selection of a “set of moral standards of their own choosing.” It REQUIRES a Sovereign who HAS THE RIGHT to declare and impose a set of standards on his subjects regardless of whether they personally like it or not. To NOT obey the Sovereign is rebellion.

But if there is no “Sovereign,” and each individual is their own “sovereign” with the inherent right to behave any way they choose no matter what anyone else might think, then each person becomes an “island unto themselves.”

"But," you might object, "we select “Society” to be our “sovereign” in some of these matters and give “Society” the right to impose certain standards (just so long as they don’t acknowledge God)." “Society,” however, is made up of a conglomeration of individual “islands” that drift with the currents and that can “change.” What once was chosen as a set of standards, morals, ethics, CAN and DOES change with time, even to the point of what was once “good” becoming “bad,” and vice versa.

That is the essence of humanist relativism. It’s “all relative” to what WE, as humans, want to be the accepted “good morals” and not the “bad morals.” The problem is that the definition of “good and bad” gets muddied, even changes, over time and the infiltration of individual “feelings” and “desires.”

“Take up your cross and follow me,” “deny self,” etc. have no place in a strictly humanistic society because there can BE no “higher authority” than the individual and what THEY think is right behavior (no matter what anyone else thinks).

WAT, YOU might not change your own chosen set of morals and they might be the “good ones.” But other can, and do, often change theirs. And it doesn’t matter whether they are Christians or not. Once “self” is elevated above God, “self” can choose anything they want and can “justify” that choice because they alone are “sovereign” of their life.



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What's worse, having no authoritative morals or not following them if you do?

That’s the wrong question, WAT. The question is what makes ANY set of morals “authoritative,” not whether someone chooses no morals or chooses to not follow the morals they HAD chosen. If the individual is the “authority,” then no one has the right to “judge” another’s “morals” by their own set of “morals.”

The real question, from a Christian perspective, isn’t really about morals, or “works of the flesh.” It is about whether or not someone, individually, is saved or not. It is not a question of the “here and now,” but is a question of the “here and forever.”

A Christian accepts God as being the Supreme Authority in all things, who has the inherent right to determine “right and wrong,” and to establish a set of morals that are applicable to all people and NOT subject to their “interpretation,” “picking and choosing,” or complete rejection. God is the Master and we are His servants, not His “equal.”




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Yes, I can get angry when faced with religious bigotry. So should you. It IS bigotry when a poster makes obvious inferences or overtly draws denigrating comparisons to others' faiths or non-faiths. The fact that some don't recognize it when it occurs makes it worse. It matters not if a poster is addressing a like-minded poster. This is a public forum.

Yes, WAT, it IS a public forum. And your lament is a shoe that fits your foot just as well. You have many times told me to keep my religious advice and comments to myself and NOT state them to non-Christians. Yet you have no compunction to blather your advice to professed Christians and give your “humanistic” perspective. You even go so far as to object to Christian, biblically based, advice given to another who states that they ARE a Christian and welcome such advice. Why? Because WAT is the “standard” by which all others are to be judged.

WAT, ALL people, not just Christians, inherently know “right and wrong.” That knowledge came to Man in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.” That knowledge has been passed down to all of Adam and Eve’s descendants. But they also have an inherent “sin nature” that puts “self” and “self-centered” desires as the “authority” in what MAY be “good” or “bad.” They make the “absolute” relative, relative to human desire and personal want, regardless of what the “absolute” may say.

Thus, for Christians, the first question is; "If you won't obey God, why would you obey anyone else?"

Even the Apostle Paul fought this battle against his “flesh,” his human nature, and what he knew he should do as a follower of Christ.

Remember, Paul was a “Pharisee of Pharisees,” totally steeped in the “good works” of being a Pharisee, before he became a Christian. What made the difference for Paul? Christ and the Cross. It’s the same for all Christians. Why? Because the issue is that SIN is first and foremost against GOD, not against Man. It is that SIN(s) of thought, word, and deed, against God that needs to be addressed first for a Christian simply because “all our good works are as filthy rags in the sight of God” if they (our sins) are not forgiven in Christ and what HE did for us (“I, myself, shall work salvation for my people”).

And Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit to reveal sin(s) in their lives that they might even be aware of, to say nothing of willful chosen sin. Non-Christians do NOT have the indwelling Holy Spirit, by choice of God. Only those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior are given the Holy Spirit to live with, and in, them.

And it changes whom actually “Sits on the Throne” of one’s life as Sovereign, with all the rights of the Sovereign.

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You know folks. There is a reason that Dr. Harley, and his son and daughter did NOT make this a Christian site. And what is going on now is exactly that reason.


This is getting really tedious.

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This is getting really tedious
I so agree.


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LC -

Rather than jumping into this debate (which will go on with no resolution in sight, IMO)....let me just say that I, for one...appreciate what you said in your original post to WAT and 2Long.

I think you were very kind, gentle, and certainly must be considered "non-offensive", I would think, by anyone.

From one Christian to another...I thank you...

(drats...I wasn't supposed to say that, was I???)

Georgia


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FGG:

Why in he11 would you say that? (oops, I wasn't supposed 2 say THAT, was I?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

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2Long....

Hah...you caught me live and in action! I can't sleep.

And...why would I say what?


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Married: 29 yrs
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Plan B - 12/06/04
Divorced - 11/17/05
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
Quote
2Long....

Hah...you caught me live and in action! I can't sleep.

And...why would I say what?

That you shouldn't have said "Christian"



I ain't got no truk with that at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

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