I have tried the teachings of this website. I feel alone on an island with a lot of my issues. I want to be able to be a better person to my wife but when I get up the energy to do so, I just sabatoge things and I don't feel that it is something that I will ever be able to do. My heart is not in this marriage and I feel that I could be a better parent on my own. I am worn out and feel that my wife and I spend most of our energy nagging at each other and it is extremely stressful. I am wanting feedback as to will my life get easier if I get a divorce. Would having the feeling of someone truely care for me again lift my spirits and make me the person that I used to be. I feel that this marriage has sucked a lot of the life out of me. I am just hanging in there for the kids and I am not sure that I can make it 15 more years. This is very difficult for me as I also have very demanding needs for physical attraction in my relationships and I don't feel that this area is being met by my wife and I as each year goes by I am less and less attracted to her to the point now where I am often lusting for other women and this is causing a lot of guilt in my life. I also feel that I have very different priorities then my wife and I value eating well and staying in shape wheras she is just more of a fastfood first type of a person. I feel resentment towards her when she eats junk food around me and I tend to get upset that we have such different philosophys on such things. I don't even bother talking to her about such matters as if I do it would turn into a big fight and she would use her ussual profanity and would likely even push me or get physically abusive with me and when I call her on being physically abusive she would say that I am verbally abusive and sees the two as the same thing. The bottom line for me is : someone please convince me that it is worth it to make an effort with someone who I have no attraction to, who is abusive to me and who does not even hold back on the arguments when the kids are around and thinks that it is ok to raise her voice with them in the room. I know that I am not innocent in all of this and I will be the first to admit that I am likely 50% of the problem. Please tell me why it is worth staying with someone who you don't respect, don't love, and don't find attractive for the benefit of the kids as in my eyes I don't think this is a benefit at all but I am waiting to be told that I am wrong. All of the self help in the world can't make you truly love someone and I know true love so I am not able to fake it in this marriage any longer. Other info that I will note is that neither of us drink/smoke or do any drugs, and neither of us have been unfaithful (other then my lusting, and for all I know she likely lusts too). Please help if you can relate to my situation or if you have any feedback that you think might either snap me out of this emotional bankruptcy or get me to move on.

Do you know that divorce destroys the lives of children? It is so traumatizing that they will never be the same. Did you know this?

Hi Macker -

First, a little more informatoin would be helpful for us to help you. Like how long have you been married, how many kids, how old (I'm assuming the youngest is 3 since you said 15 years to go).

A few things jumped out at me from your post, and I'll address those.


If you're looking for someone to make you the person you used to be, you're looking in the wrong spot. That ability resides 100% in you, and no one else. Only you can define who you are, and what you want to be.

Divorcing your current wife and finding someone else, or even staying single for the rest of your life, isn't going to fix your personal problems. In fact, you would be well advised to take a very long, very hard look at yourself and see you want or would like to change (irrespective of your external situation), and try and determine if any of these issues may be causing some of your wife's actions.

Statisitcs show that 2nd marriages have a higher failure rate than 1st, if I remember correctly. A reasonable conclusion based on that data is that 2nd marriages are more likely to fail because the participants of the second marriage didn't learn anything from their first marriage.


How do you sabatoge these things?


There's no reason to tolerate her abuse. If she raises her voice, calmly walk away. You accomplish two things by this:

1. You avoid escalating an already bad situation.
2. You set an example for your kids that it's not OK to raise your voice, and that the best thing to do in that situation is to simply walk away until the other person is willing to talk in a reasonable tone.

If she is physically abusive, to your or your children, then you might want to consider involving the authorities, if she won't agree to counseling.


Good. You're willing to accept responsibility for your actions. Now you need to identify what causes your actions, and determine what you, not anyone else, can do to fix that.

Marriage is not 50/50. Marriage is 100/100 - both spouses are 100% responsible for their actions and contributions. Focus on your 100% - that's all you can control.


I don't think it is worth staying in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids. That sends the absolute worst message about what a real marriage is about.

On the other hand, I also think it's absolutely worth a 150% of your effort to make the marriage a great marriage before calling it quits, and I don't get the sense from your post that you've put that level of effort in yet.

At the very least, you need to try some IC (Individual Counseling). What I'm hearing from your post is a lot of dependency on other people for your self-worth, and that's not good. It makes you less than you can be, and it also makes you unattractive as a husband.

You're right - noone or nothing can make you love anything. Love is a choice. You say you know true love - be careful there to not confuse the chemical version of love (infatuation) with a mature, enduring love. Read the 1st (or 2nd) chapter of The Five Love Languages for a really good discussion of the difference.

I'd be very surprised if anyone here tells you to go ahead and divorce. You will, however, get lots of good advice - if you are willing to listen with an open mind. You have a golden opportunity here - to save your marriage before it falls victim to an affair, with the end result being a marriage better than you or your wife could imagine.

It takes two people to make a marriage successful - but it only takes one person to initiate change to get the marriage on that course. Are you willing to step up to the plate and start that change?

macker2,

I have reread your post a few times and each time I saw it slightly differently. Then I stopped and thought about it. Your post reminds me very much of the post of a fogged out wayward spouse deep in the throes of an affair or someone about to have an affair.

Why are you posting on an infidelity forum? Just curious.

As to your question, no you should not stay in a marriage just for the kids. All you teach them is that relationships have no value. But what you should do is honor your vow to your wife. Fix what is broken. Reestablish love in the marriage and teach your children what is really good and right.

From your post, you two are in serious need of professional counseling. Have you and your wife read His Needs Her Needs? Don't suffer a toxic marriage for the kids. Make a good marriage for them.

I understand what you are saying but the reality is that I am married to someone who a lot of people out there would recognize as a b...h. I am not trying to sound like a jerk or anyting but when she gets going I often don't know where things will end up as I am not the most even tempured person myself. I know that it is not just me that can cause these eruptions as our family dog gets his fair share also, and my oldest son who is 3.5 also can get her flaring up. My dilema is that I see the situation as extremely volatile and at times almost dangerous and I don't know how to manage the situation. Even if I feel things getting out of control and I try to walk away from the situation this seems to get her going even more. For example I once tried to lock myself in a bathroom to escape the situation and I now have a patched over hole in my bathroom door. I know that they say when you get married don't expect that you can ever change someone and I have come to terms with this. I also see where she got her temper and behavior from as her mom is about is volatile as they come. I am a very tolerate and patient person but I don't think that I can deal with this much longer. My kid's are getting older 3.5 and 1.5 and they are able to see that Dad spilt Milk again and Dad is getting yelled at and chased around the house. I am not exagerating when I say that the littlest things can cause the biggest reactions with my wife. I sometimes have to sleep without moving an inch or if I have to get up to go to the washroom at night I can expect to have an ear full and then soon after year a 3.5 year old and 1.5 year old crying, as they have been awoken. I really feel like I am the 1 guy in 100 that would be able to put up with this situation without walking out but now I am getting so frustrated that I feel that my life would have a lot more harmony if I were on my own, and had the kid's for part of the time. Sorry for the vent, but it feels like about the only thing that I can do right now that feels somewhat constructive....Do you see that I may be destroying their lives if I get a divorce and destroying all 4 of our lives if I stay together for the kids?

Is there a cheat sheet for all the codes that are used on this site such as d-day etc.

married 6.5 years. Children : boy aged 3.5 and girl 1.5. I am not looking for someone to make me the person I want to be but I do not want to be part of a marriage where two people are bringing out the worst in each other. I am constantly working on myself to be the best person I can be, in all quadrants of my life. I am very driven and I have come to the point where I have all areas of my life where I would like to see them but my marriage the most important part of my life is in shambles and it has a way of spilling over into my business and other areas of my life. I don't think that I would be looking of another marriage anytime soon as I definitely think that I got married the first time without doing proper due diligence. I had no idea what I was getting into. I sabatoge things by not caring as deeply as I should when it comes to my wife and I know I should but I can't. It is really a situation similar to trying to drive a car without any gas. You may say come on buddy just put some gas into the car...I wish it were that simple. Our marriage is like sandcastles on the edge of a beach and everytime you get the castle just about complete a big wave comes in and wipes it out and I don't think this will ever change. Sorry for all the corny examples....When I try to walk away from a volatile situation with my wife she get's even more angry. I have used the example before that one time I went for cover in my bathroom and she kicked a hole in the door. If I try to tell her that I am going to take a timeout it seems to really get under her skin and when I am fleeing so to speak is the times when I have found her clawing on my back or punching me in the back of the head. Likely her physical abuse has never really hurt me and I have a hard head, and she isn't exactly over powering but these symbolic exchanges have a way of never really leaving your awareness. I know for a fact that I have a lot of baggage from this marriage. Also, she would never lay a finger on either one of my children. She is quite volatile with them though too and I have come to realize that this is just the way she is. I really didn't know this when I got married but now after being married for 6.5 years I am well aware of this, and have seen examples from her mother, or my mother in law that make it very easy for me to see where she gets it from. I have started IC about 3 weeks ago and I am finding it is taking a little while to get going and I am more in need of immediate advice etc. as these situations aren't the type that you can put on the back burner and I often feel that things are out of control. I am willing to try to make things work, but the older my kid's get 3.5 and 1.5 they are now becomming more and more aware of the situation and they see how volatile there mom can get and I am the one that trys to always be calm and cool on the surface but deep down I am just about ready to explode. I would say about once per month I lose my tolerance and I say things that are very rude to my wife as a result of holding in. It seems to go in cycles this way.....hold in, hold in, explode.....and then begin again...I know there is an easy way to stop this by not exploding but that is the part that I need a lot of help with....

I am loyal to my wife. I posted at this infidelity forum as I was told that it was the one that had the most viewers and what I need is feedback and or to hear from someone who has real life experience with what I am living with.

My H and I have been together for 5 years now, and let me tell you, I have learned alot that I wished I had known before hand. I have to children from first husband who passed away. What you must do is search deep inside and ask yourself if this is the life you want, or to leave. I know the children will be hurt, an it seems you will also, but my H cheated on me with a co worker, and has been talking to 2 other women that I know, but I'm still trying to save this marriage. It hurts so bad, tht you just can't explain. He is a diabetic, almost died when we found out, I was by his side during the day, home before kids got home from school, then back to hospital. Right before Christmas is when I found out about H's affair. He told this OW that we were having problems, but I know we weren't. Only you can decide to go or stay, which is a hard choice. I have given myself a time limit as to if we can salvage this marriage, then if not, that's it. I will say a prayer for you and just be true to yourself and you will know what to do, regardless if it will be a hard decision. I'm here because of my daughter loves my H so much, she was young when her dad passed away, and it hurts me to think it's possible that she will loose another daddy. I'm working on myself and finding myself, that's all we can do. I'm sorry your going through this but it will all come to you in time.

macker -

Thanks for the further information. I don't have much advice to give you...perhaps others here can. But from what you've described, your wife has some serious anger issues that she needs to deal with. You may believe she would never lift a finger against the kids, and you may be right, but do you really want to take that chance?

I've spent the better part of the last year working on controlling my anger - I too would never hit my kids (or my wife, for that matter), but I would also never claim that I wouldn't have if I hadn't finally gone for counseling.

From what little I know of your situation, I would advise you to ask your wife to leave until she can get her temper under control. If you have documented evidence, you can probably have her removed by the authorities.

Sound harsh? Maybe it is - but if what you've described is accurate, I think you need to consider getting her out of the house.

That's just my 2 cents...please get a professional opinion (or several) on this situation. It doesn't sound safe at all, especially for the kids. Even if it's just on an emotional/verbal level. Your kids do not need to be exposed to that kind of behavior on a constant basis, and neither do you.

Please note that I am not advocating divorce. I'm advocating giving your wife the message of you still want to be married, but her extremem behavior will no longer be tolerated. In the meantime, continue your IC and working on yourself.

Macker2,

A few more questions for you.

What initially attracted you to your wife?

Did you have a good marriage where you were both meeting each others needs prior to the children?

Does your job require you to be away from home longer than normal work hours?

Did your wife work prior to the children? Does she now?

Do you share household tasks and responsibilities?

Do you spend any time together as a couple?

Do you have any support systems around...family etc?

Has your wifes decline in physical appearance and self-care occur only since having the children? Does she have a history of depression? What about your appearance? Do you go to the gym? Does she watch the kids while you go workout? Can you do something together...run, walk, cycle, yoga, kick-box (my favorite) etc? This would be good couples time and help with fitness both physical, mental and marital.

I ask all of this b/c I have been on both sides of your sitch. I always told H that as long as things btwn us were good I could handle work stress, external stress and issues but when things went bad btwn us it affects my performance all the way around. OTOH, I would chase him down and want to bust down the door if he walked away from me or tried to avoid conflict...I felt neglected, taken for granted, like "the mom", no longer sexy...just a mommy maching and workhorse, I was exhausted and felt his unattraction which only fueled my bitterness more...I know where your wife is coming from. I needed TLC, help with the house stuff, some quality time and conversation, not just superficial stuff about work and chores and what needed to be done with bills and household stuff. I needed to get out, be an adult again, dress up, do adult stuff that had nothing to do with my/his work or the kids. Is this what is happening in your marriage?

I agree you both need professional assistance but I would say you should read what you can on this site, especially about resolving conflict. Read His Needs Her Needs and start working on your issues...you cannot control your wife but you can do something about anything that is yours which is contributing to your marital problems.

Speaking for myself, I have a very high need for conversation and affection...once my love tank was empty of these for a prolonged period of time (years) I would get hostile, resentful and bitter over the slightest issue that would trigger these emotions. It steamed me that my H's way of dealing with our problems was avoidance...it still does but at least now I understand and can approach issues in a variety of calm, respectful ways...does it change the outcome...not always but it puts me on the high road of the relationship. If things don't work out I can walk away knowing I had done everything in my power to make it the best it could be.

Have you asked your wife her thoughts about your marriage? What she wants and what is lacking for her from you? Learn about Disrespectful Judgements and avoid them...avoid lovebusting.

If you really want to attempt to resolve your issues know that it requires lots of work on your part and your wife if she is interested. Even if she is not you can make sure that you do your part and see if it creates a change in her...even if it does not it will make you the best person and dad you can be. You will learn things about yourself that will amaze you. You will find that you are a wonderful and loving person...you have all of the tools within you and on this site to do just that.

You will find all the support you need right here if you choose to pursue working on your marriage...good luck.

Macker 2, first let me say how sorry I am that you're in this situation. I have been married 14.5yrs, 3 kids 6-12yrs old. Their father and I have been separated for about 1.5yrs. We spent two 6mos. stints with Mc and I have been in IC for about 3yrs. He tried IC for about 4mos but seemed to quit when it meant he would have to take a hard look at himself and make some major changes.

I have been where you are. I know how inviting it is to want to get out to something better, something more nurturing. I can honestly say now that had I not spent the time and effort I have on this marriage I would always be regretting it. It is a gut wrenching decision to end a marriage and I think I will always have some area of my mind that wonders if I could have done something differently.

The day that finally made it clear for me was when he was pulling one of his usual power trips(similar to your W's reaction to your disagreement with her). My 12yr old son was on his way to a special outing and we had arranged to do an activity before he left(just he and I), along comes Dad who is p****d because I didn't agree with something he wanted to do- and lo and behold he tells son to get in the car we're going. Son looks to me for guidance and I shirk the responsiblity and allow Dad to take off with him without having our special time(which Dad was aware of previously).

A friend pointed out to me that I was now teaching my son exactly the same thing I had been taught as a young child and again as a wife to this man. Your opinion, time, acitivities etc are not as important as laying low when He is upset and refuses to deal with the issue responsibly. I have been trying to change my reaction to this for years and even ended up in a depression at one point. I have ssince been fighting other health issues and still making efforts to change my behavior for the betterment of this marriage.

I can no longer do this.. he has not stepped up to the plate to grow with me and one person cannot hold together a relationship that's attacking their mental/emotional health.

I would encourage you to do all that you can do whether your wife decides to participate or not. If you do not at least expend the effort you will regret it at a later date.

I know my H will recognize what was lost at some point, unfortunately I have depleted my emotional resources to hang on until that time. It just may take the fact that he loses it all for him to finally want to make some changes.. it is soo sad.

Don't continue indefinitely "just for the kids" but if you feel you can't make the effort for yourself or your wife then make it about the kids.

Good luck to you and I hope you continue in your quest for your own personal growth.

melody lane,
i respect and agree with a lot of what you say. but i believe divorce is a case by case basis. yes, divorce is a last resort and a marriage should be fought for til the very end. believe me, that is what i did. HOWEVER, it destroyed me more as a child to have my parents stay together as long as they did. I remember being 13 and telling my mother "dont you think we would be happier if dad was not here? if you two were not married anymore?" yes, i said that. i lived in a house of alcoholism and even tho my dad did not physically abuse me there was a lot of emotional when he was drinking. i would have been a lot less destroyed had my mother gotten out of that marriage while i was still very young so i would not have had to endure what i did.

thank god, my dad and i are close now, he has not drank in over 10 years now. thank god.

i know addiction is a reason a marriage may not be able to be saved. i just wanted to add that point. for me, i wish my parents had divorced sooner.

mlhb

This is what I too worry about. If I feel like this now then wait until my kids are 13 for example. I want to do make their lives as good as possible and right now I don't think this is the case. I however have not been able to think through all that is involved with divorce and it is the big unknown for me. I don't want to rush into something that I may regret but at the same time something has to be done....it is very confusing and very stressful for me!!! I appreciate your real life experience!!!

I appreciate you sharing your experience and I appreciate you letting me know that I am not the only one that has this kind of disfunctional relationship. In my life I don't ever get a chance to open up like this so it is helpful to let me hear from others so that I can try to do the right thing. Similar to what you are saying that kid's learn what they see....it breaks from heart when I see my son 3.5 having over blown reactions to different situations and I relize that he gets this behavior from his mother for the most part and there is really nothing that I can do to change that. The worst part of this situation is that it seems like changes could be done very easily to improve the situation but I have tried everything that I can do to make it better and I can't change her so maybe it is just the way she is end of storey. I am now going to use a calendar to see how many days we can go with harmony in this family. I am up to one day so far which I guess is a start. This site has gotten my attention to try ever last option possible which I hopes proves to help this situation but in the back of my mind I just keep thinking that this might make things better for a couple of days and then we will have another obstacle. I just hope that we can both become better adults out of all of this!

I was attracted to her because she was a really nice person. I wouldn't say it was a love at first sight kinda thing and I have heard of people saying that someone settled for someone else so maybe in hind sight this is what I did.
We have always had struggles even before having kids. When our friends and family see us together they always say that we seem to be getting along so well but when it is just the two of us that is ussually not the case. We get along about 80% of the time but the 20% that we don't is very damaging.
Regarding your question on my job : I work from home so I am always around. We are never really apart for very long. She works 9 days per month so I am with the kids while she works her 8 hour shifts so that is the longest we would ever be apart. I would say out of all of the people that I know I do the most for my kids, around the house, and the more I do the more I am expected to do. I know that my wife knows how good she has it as her friends are often surprised by how much of the responsibilities that I take on. We have about 1 date night every 6 months I would say...other then that all of our activities involve the kids. My support system is my family as my sister lives in our neighborhood and my parents are in to see us about once every 2 weeks. My wife gets along very well with my sister and I would say good with the rest of my family. Other then family though I don't really open up to anyone. I started couselling about 3 weeks ago so that will help me express some of this. I use excercise as my anti-depresant and I run marathons and enjoy training for them. I do not train in times that would intervere with family time and I am my own boss so I can decide when I train which is ussually sometime during the day around lunch time. My wife was on anti-depressants about 2 years ago and we don't really talk about these types of things enought for me to know is she is on anything right now. We do go for family walks. I will work on the feedback that you have given. I appreciate your insights!

Okay but it just seems to me you are taking a survey and see how many vote for divorce. Nobody here knows your marriage and nobody can see this from your wife's POV. As I said before, you sound just like a fogged WS. Maybe you are telling the truth or maybe you are telling rewritten truth. Nobody can know that - not even you. The only right thing to do is get professional counseling and see if your marriage can be fixed or not.

What bothers me most about your original post is what will happen to you if you leave your wife for someone you do find attractive, you marry that person and then that new wife puts on a few pounds. Do yourself a favor and please go see a marriage counselor together with your wife. Don't take a vote via internet to make your decision.

If you cannot make a healthy marriage, divorce is a valid option. But you got married for a reason. You decided to have children. They didn't ask to be born. Do think about what is ultimately best for them. Look into the Marriage Builders weekend. The Harley principles work to build marriages - not just to recover from infidelity. In fact, the better part of the Harley plan is in building a good marriage.

You need someone who can look at this objectively and guide you and your wife forward - either together or apart. Even if you decide for divorce, counseling for the two of you during that process will be much better for the children. A counselor can show you both how to lessen the damage to the children and how to deal with them separated.

No, I am not taking a poll to see what to do, but rather hearing other peoples experience of similar situations. If I were looking for poll results to help me decide what to do then I would have left this situation a long time ago as 99 our of 100 people would have and I have been very forgiving in this relationship. I do express this same content to my consellor but who is to say that she has lived through this type of experience. It is not something that you can just say I have read about that etc. Don't get me wrong I do find her advice to be of benefit but I find other peoples experiences with a similar type situation to be more credible to me. Just my opinion.

macker2,

Sorry to hear your story. If it's any comfort to you, my wife exhibited many of the behaviours which you describe here. I was subjected to physical abuse, lots of insults, namecalling and all that. When I met her, she carried a
Bible with her whereever she went. But, in our marriage, she would cuss me, hit me, bite me, pull my hair, throw things at me, smash things in the house etc.

Just in case your wife's behaviour arises from similar root causes, I'll tell you that my wife was abused by her Mom - was born in war, orphaned, adopted, and subjected to frequent verbal and some physical abuse. These experiences shaped who she is and was. If your wife has had similar issues growing up, it would explain some of what you are seeing.

In part, my wife did not know how to express herself with words. So, she expressed herself in these violent ways at time. As time went on, it became less frequent. By the time we divorced she very rarely resorted to physical abuse. The verbal abuse, however, continued. I could see my wife in the descriptions you gave of yours.

You need professional advice - not only what you can get here. In my experience, locally, I could get nothing. I took her once against her will to a mental health center. That did nothing good. I know that this kind of advice is expensive - and also there is no gaurantee that you will get good or helpful advice, no matter how much you pay.

What I found, in thinking carefully about the blowups that happened, is that if I studiously avoided defending myself (verbally), things went more smoothely. Also, my wife would be violent in situation where she really wanted my attention. She has told me that in years since that time. What she really wanted was to be held, but she grew up in an environment that she could not ask for that. She had the feeling that she didn't have the right to ask for that - and further, the romantic notion that I should just "know" what she needs without her having to tell me. I remeber times when I withdrew from her and she was just hanging on to me and being dragged through the house as I was just trying to walk away from her while she was clinging to me and at the same time insulting me.

If your wife is the same, you have a chance to make some changes in the dance so that when she makes the same old move, you don't make the same old response, but something different.

This kind of behaviour almost always arises from fear and a feeling of weakness rather than a feeling of strength.

When I withdrew from my wife, it make her feel that she was hopelessly broken and unlovable. It made her angry that she felt that way, and since I was there, she blamed me for her feelings. She could not accept that her feelings arose from within or from sources other than me. If I was present and she was unhappy, then all she could imagine was that it was my fault.

She told me (in later years), that if, in times like those in which she became violent, I had just grabbed her, held her, comforted her and reasured her that it would be alright, it would have helped. From my own experience, I know that to be a very difficult thing to do - and despite her assertions that it would be helpful, I only remember once or twice that it was.

So, another angle that might be persued. You know that you wife can "hold it in" when others are present. She doesn't show others this side of her. Exposure is often recommended by the Harleys in the case of infidelity. You might consider and explore the possibility of describing these outbursts to others who she cares about. It will make her angry, but it might restrain her to some extent. I don't know.

I am divorced. I don't believe in divorce. I wish it were different.

Now, about your issues with appearance / eating / and what you call "healthy living", I think you need to examine yourself (as some others here have recommended). I don't think you have a right to tell your W what to eat. This kind of controlling behaviour will certainly he resented by her - and if she is anything like my ex-wife, she will do it more just to prove that you don't control her. My advice : Knock it off.

Good luck to you,

-AD

m2,

I wanted to add, that, despite the fact that my wife reacted badly to my withdrawal from her in time of conflict (and still complains about it when we talk), I think that the physical abuse declined in large part because I learned to simply walk out of the house if she became physically abusive. Maybe you have nowhere to go, since you work at home, but I would just go to the office for a few hours. She would call and call and beg me to come home. As I wrote before, the violent outbursts greatly declined over time. I would also leave sometimes if she started breaking things. One father's day morning, she threw a glass at me which smashed on the edge of the kitchen cabinet. I just picked up my (barefoot) child and walked out the door - spent some time at McD's. Sad way to spend father's day, but I certainly don't regret taking that approach.

-AD