Anyone else notice that there are BH, BW, FWW, but so few FWH? This concerns me on many levels. For example, it seems to me that men in general seem capable of walking away from their families completely. It seems a rare occasion that a WW will do the same. and, an FWW will share her thought processes and help the betrayed spouses of both genders.

So, where are the FWH's? why is there no input ? It seems to me that they either recover and their betrayed spouses post while the wandering husband stays in the background. Or they "move on" leaving their path of destruction without a word or a care! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The problem that I see with this imbalance of input is that for the betrayed wife there is no firsthand advice or knowledge from men.

I think that men and women think differently and react differently to stressors. So this lack of information puts the betrayed wife at a great disadvantage.

Some might not see it as a big problem. Because the FWW is giving her input. I don't agree with this because if men and women think differently we can only guess at how the wandering husband got to the place they are in.

There seem to be a lot of passive aggressive males disproportionate to the number of passive aggressive females. So, to get valid information and knowledge it seems to me we need to know more.

Any thoughts on this?

I see a few here, over on Recovery.

Lousygolfer and Messdup are two. You might touch base with them if you have questions for them specifically. Also, MarriedForever's FWH has recently shown up. MFsFWH is his handle.

I think part of the difference is that women tend to TALK about problems, men tend to ACT on them. Women would love it if the men would talk to them more, and men would love it if the women would show love physically more. Basic difference in the genders, I think.

My FWH got where he was because he conflict avoids, because so do I, because neither of us talk, because we didn't make time for one another, because he drank too much, because I didn't meet his sexual needs, because he didn't talk about those needs, because he had a mid-life crisis, because I didn't see it, because, because, because, because.....

Basically, life got in the way and we got lost in the storm. We lost touch with each other and didn't pay attention to each other's needs, and we took each other for granted. Both of us had a part in getting the marriage to where it was, and we both own that. HE owns the part where he decided to go off with the OW. I am not to blame for that decision, he owns it 100% - but for the state of the marriage and what led up to that point, certainly I played a part in everything that got us there.

At any point along the way, we could have talked about it. Neither of us did........can we say it's because men and women think differently? I think we both thought much the same! Both of us thought the wrong things, didn't think to talk to the other, and thought it would not happen to OUR marriage.

But there are LOTS of men on the boards......look around. You'll find them.

SB

I am one...sad to say.

It took a little of the "hair of the dog" (being cheated on) for me to realize what an @$$ I had been.

I have forgiven myself for that atrocious behavior and apologized to those I had wronged.

Sadly, I may be a minority among men...

fighting,

It seems to me that you are pronouncing generalized judgements about men, and casting yourself as the victim. I don't think that's a very helpful approach. I'm sorry that your H betrayed you, but I don't think it is helpful to jump from that experience to such a dim view of men in general.

When you say "men in general seem capable of walking away from their families completely", I (being a man) might be offended. I won't take offence, because I know you're still hurting and trying to figure it all out. I didn't walk away from my family. I left my wife and divorced her because, despite my forgiving attitude, (or because of it), she persisted in her affair. Now, I take every hour the court allows me with my child ... and a year after my divorce, I have not dated anybody, and I still think about the vows that I took to my ex-wife, despite the fact that she is married to the OM and 5 months pregnant.

If the men you want to talk to are not here, then they are not here. Posting here to lament their absence seems pointless. Making general judgements about all men seems counter-productive.

-AD

Hi SB. Well I agree 100% that life gets in the wya. I am not for one minute trying to say that in most marraiges there are things that BOTH partenrs need to work on. ANd nelgect of each other is one of them.

What I am starting to see though if that MOST broken Ms end up with the WH walking away. Emotionally as well as phsyically.

TIme and time agian I see the WH abadnoning not only their partner but their children.

THey call it MOVING ON. Well I call it something different.

I hate that phrase now. AS if the M and the family was a pit stop on the way to where they REALLY want to go.

ICK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And with the WW, it is much more rare that she abandons her kids. That is what I am seeing. BUt I do know this is my perception and coloured very much by my sitch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

HI AD. Long time no speak. I apologize for my lack of clarity. WHen I say men in general I meant that statistically, when families break up it IS the man that moves on. HE is the one on the outside.

And specifically WH who leave do so with greater frequency from the ENTIRE family unit. CHildren included.

AD, I would never presume to say that men are all alike. What I am saying is looking at the posters on MB, there is a HUGE disproportinate of BS and of that group, mostly BW. Yes there are BHs as well, like yourself.

But the goal of MB is Marriage BUilding. And THAT takes TWO people.

And generaized judgements are really just that. A genrealized statement to START a discussion. AN exchange of views.

I do NOT nor have I ever considered myself a victim. Other than the direct result of my WH's A's.

I am here becasue I CHOOSE to be here. I am here to learn. TO understand. TO grow.

I agree that the men are not here. I AM Lamenting their absence. BEcasue FWH could be a great source of information.

And I resepctfully disagree that this discussion is counter-productive. ANY exchange of information gives ALL of us more insight. Whether I agree with you or not.

And lastly, AD you are a BH. NOT a FWH. I KNOW the battle you had. I know the battle that ALL BS have. Each is different yet so many similarities.

Take care.

Thank you for posting to me WHnowBS. Is that what it took for you to realize your mistake? I am very sorry to hear that. Yet I would say You have reason to be proud for being here in an environment that is not alwasy sympathetic to WS.

I am glad that you are here. And if I have any specific questions I hope you don't mind me asking you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

fighting,

No offense intended. No offense taken.

Best wishes to you.

And now, for my generalized judgments... <grin>

I think the answer is that if the marriage breaks up, for whatever reason it breaks up, the men more often than not end up alone - because women more often than not end up with primary custody of the children. As the Bible says "it is not good for a man to be alone". So, if a man is the betrayer - and the OW is available, I suppose it is more likely than not that he will stick with the OW.

On the other hand, if he is the betrayed one, painfully alone - struggling to regain his sense of self-worth, he is more likely to search for a quick fix new relationship. I believe that it is much harder to maintain a working relationship with the children as the non-custodial parent. Many men, even men who really wanted to be good fathers, eventually give up. It's just hard to stay connected. I can see that for my child, it may become difficult over time. She's the kind of child who likes to stay whereever she is, so she'll drag her feet to come to Dad's house, and drag her feet to go back to her Mom. I'm afraid that at some point she just won't want to bother with going back and forth. So, I'll lose. In the mean time, I'll do the best I can.

Meanwhile, the Mom, even if she is the WS, has the children - and having the children consumes much of her time and energy - and even if she is the WS, she may have reservations about setting up a household with the OM. My XW is like this. She married the OM and is 5 months pregnant, but does not live with him when our child is with her - and has not told our child that she is married. I think this is an unusual extreme, but perhaps it isn't. I don't have much to go on to form a statistical sample.

-AD

Stuff like shifting kids back and forth makes me nuts. JMHO.

Anyway, the idea that men move on is kind of artificially imposed, I think. Men move on because divorce laws originally favored the woman staying in the home and raising the children, and the men supporting her there while she did that. Just an artifact of how things used to be. Men got the shaft in the sense that pretty much, regardless of how the divorce came about, the woman stayed put with the kids (long time ago).

Nowadays, things have progressed to the point where men's rights are considered (well, "considered" is used loosely here, many men would argue, and I can't say that I blame them!). While women still usually end up with the kids and the house, the courts grant "visitation". Strange word to use when you talk about your own child.

How would most parents feel if they were told, "okay, we are going to allow you to visit your child on Saturday and Sunday only"........

I don't care how you color this, but this is not any way to establish and maintain a parental relationship with a child. We need to find a better way - for the children. I don't care too much (well, somewhat) what the PARENTS are feeling, their "rights", etc. The KIDS are the real losers, because what happens is just what AD said, ultimately, the "visiting" parent ends up fading into the sunset more often than not. Too often, this happens to be the father.

And the "new" wife, too often she cares only about her own children, and encourages the man to cut off contact with the "old" family (this for reasons of her own, often having to do with jealousy of "old" wife).



And so we end up with the generation before you - without male role models, who are needy, and wanting, and searching.

And lots of women who strongly believe they "don't need men" to raise children, that "men aren't important". And we push them away even further into the background, and make boys feel less wanted and needed, and raise them feeling.....what.....????? So, where are the men.......it's a circle, don't you think?

Soap box ended.

SB

Schoolbus:

Thanks for the shout out. It is a very small club if my name springs to mind on that list.....

Looking for WH here? Not a lot. Why? Because it is not a friendly site to Waywards in general.

Why do I say this? Because I am a WS and I am guilty of all the things that WS do and I am a composite of all the WS's who have cheated on the BS who post here. WS are always guilty of FOG Speak. They are cake-eaters. They have not yet "gotten it", if they do not follow the party line.

And BS can do no wrong sometimes.

It takes alot of fortitude to be here for long if you are a unrepentant WS.

Now. I own my actions for choosing an A instead of working on my M. My actions are 100% Mine.

But, I had a bad M. My fault as well, but some of it was BS fault as well. It does take two to have a bad M sometimes.

But I am here because this Web-site and the MB Weekend created the environment for me to have a M that I never knew could exist.

Did I change after DDay? Absolutely! Did my BS? Absolutely! Because if we didn't, our M would have never survived.

Many Waywards never choose to change. And if you do not change, then you deserve to get flamed on this site all day long. Hence, they do not hang around long.

And, if you are a WS, and you visit, and read and listen and post and learn to fix yourself, and you repair your M, you drift away. Not much left here for you. But, for BS, there is a much larger support group available to you and it is easy to hang out. And the follow-on support is invaluable to BS. Many of whom never really get a properly remorseful, transparent, EN filling WS back.

I also enjoy the give and take that goes with being a regular here.

I like to think that I can help some folks in thier journey to a new M.

And I have been hit with 2x4's here. Deservedly so.

Now, I claim to be a FWS. The F needs to be earned. I believe I did everything I needed to get the F. Unfortunatly, like the scarlet letter, I can never remove the WS part.

Just my .02

LG! THank you for posting to me! I truly appreciate it. Yes I agree that A's happen becasue there are unresolved issues. And that in MOST cases it takes two ppl so there is improvment required of BOTH partners.

I say MOST becsue there are a rare number of times where the WS has far deeper self-esteem or other issues that are not dealt with.

BUt mostly I would say that the problem beings with avoding open and honest communication. imho a COURSE in communication should be a prequsite to marriages with a refresher after life altering evetns, death, birth, job that kind of stuff. LIke renewing a license for driving a vehicle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And yes I agree that there is alot of harshness towards the WS. Especially when they firts get here. A bit of fog sticks on them and the stuff that comes out of their mouth is just well you get the picture. SO 2x4s are rampant. Myself included. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

ANd I admire the ones that take that and learn becuse of or despite that. NOt sure which.

And BY GEORGE! I think you get it! F MUST be EARNED. ACTIONS speak far louder that words.