Just wondering what the general wisdom is. It is one full week since my d-day, and my rage and urge to know exactly what happened is starting to subside (far from gone though).

In those first few days, I insisted, and she refused, on her telling me:

- When it started
- How many times
- Where
- Did she use protection (I think this is at least MUST be answered)
- Did it "just happen", or did she wake up that day knowing she was going to do this horrible thing?
- And the most painful, did you ever say "I love you"
- Then there's the whole slate of morbid sexual questions that I have no desire to ask, but I imagine others might

She dodged most of the questions. I was able to get the gist of the timeline from cellphone records though, so I'm for the most part willing to let it go now.

But I'm asking the group: Should the BS insist on knowing all details, or will that only make things worse? I'm worried that without full disclosure, open questions might linger in my mind forever. But I'm also worried that full disclosure may result in further cementing images in my head that I'll never be able to erase.

What do you think?

Should BS insist on DETAILS? single choice
	Yes
	No
Votes accepted starting: 11/10/06 05:31 PM
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It is up to each BS individually what they want to know.

Some barely want any details others want details right down to positions.

It is a balance between what you need to know and what you may find out that will kill you inside so you can never look at the FWW the same way.

So it is really up to you. Radical honesty is important to cement further trust in the FWW. Try to find Josephs letter on the site and send it to her.

Or someone behind me will have it.

Yes. You need the details to start to heal. How many is up to you.

It is my belief that the act of infidelity is not what does the greatest damage to the M. It is the lying / covering up afterward that does the greatest damage, To yourself and your betrayed spouse.

With that said: Here are a few things that can help you and your spouse.

1. She must be totally honest with you about everything
2. She must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
3. She must do everything in her power to prove to you that you are the one that she wants to be with.
4. She must prove her love to you ... she must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. She must feel your pain.
6. She must fully understand the devastation that She caused you.
7. She must accept full responsibility for her actions.
8. She must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect him.
9. She must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions.
10. She must reassure you that she will not drive you away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. She must recognize when you are struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
12. She must be able to tell you how sorry She is and show you.
13. She must re-enforce to you, that you is not responsible.
14. She must put her own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
15. She must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
16. She must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. She must be willing to seek counseling.

Here is a list of things that you must do:

1. Give her the necessary time to prove her love and commitment to you.
2. Be open with your feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to you.
4. Don't be afraid that you will drive her away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming himself for her actions. You is in no way responsible for her choice to engage in an affair!
6. She must be able to let you connect with her. (this one takes time)
7. You must continue checking up on her in order to rebuild trust.
8. You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery: such as anger or depression.

These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved.


Stay Strong!

The level of detail is ENTIRELY up to the individual. Only YOU can determine what you need to know to recover.

The important thing is that WS is WILLING to answer each and every question. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW ALL OF THIS, because these are pertinent facts about YOUR LIFE.

The WS cannot have secrets with the OP to which you are not privy. There will be NO rebuilding of trust until all secrets are shared with you.

For the WS, it is always best to just suck it up and get it all out in the open at the start. Otherwise, you will both live a life of endless he11 where you play prosecuting attorney and she plays hostile defense witness with you dragging out every bit and peice, bit by bit. It is going to come out one way or the other.

it can come out easy and get it all over with in one fell swoop or it can come out hard, with lots and lots of new little D-days every time a new tidbit is dragged out. That is like dying a death of a thousand cuts where you relive d-day over and over again.

This is Joseph's letter


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

I did not find that letter until I had written one of my own. My FWH was pretty good about answering the questions. He never offered any information or acted happy about answering it, but he did it.

For me, it was easier for me to write out my questions and then he answered them. This helped me to be less emotional.

Now, it has been quite a while and if something comes to my mind, I will ask him. He still answers even though he thinks I should be over it.

As Mel said, you have to know what you have to know.

So, it is up to you decide what you need to know.

Thanks everybody! It is a great letter, but there is one major difference from my situation. My F?WW doesn't love me right now. If not for the kids, I'm pretty sure she would leave.

So I'm in no position to bargain. It's funny. In movies, you always see the WS begging to be taken back. But in reality, the affair usually happens because WS is seriously dissatisfied with the marriage. Even after the affair is over, the WS is not thrilled to return to the marriage. So the BS is the one who has to repair the relationship, not the WS. This means the betrayed ends up doing a lot of apologizing to the betrayer, something you don't often see in TV/movie portrayals of affairs, but is certainly happening now in my situation.

Everyone says it's important for me to know that I did not cause her to have an affair. But in a way I did. I WOKE UP big time with this. I see that I was her husband in name only. I made no efforts to connect with her. I found out last night that she used to drive randomly around at night after I drank 2 bottles of wine and fell asleep on the couch on a Friday night (I have since quit drinking altogether, even before d-day...it was a great decision). I didn't even know that my wife was driving aimlessly by herself on a Friday night. That's not a very good husband. She told me MANY times all the things that were wrong. She told me last Christmas that this would probably be our last holiday together. I did nothing. I just didn't believe there was really a problem. Well there was, and the affair was indeed about the only thing that would open my eyes to it. I was a great father and provider, but a LOUSY husband. She told me half a year ago that she didn't want to say "I love you" on the phone anymore (before the affair). Did I get us into counseling? No. I did nothing. I harbored many little resentments against her, but never gave her the chance to resolve them with me, so that I could love her fully and have her first in my heart. Instead I chose denial and withdrawal. So did she have to choose an affair? No. But do I bear some of the blame in this? You better believe it.

Thoughts?

TomFool, it took 6 months for all the details to emerge (I am the FWW).

I posted for the first time on MB the day after my H sat me down and said "I want to hear your story from start to finish. I won't be angry, I may be hurt."

As I said waaaaay back then (February 2004) it was the way he asked me that brought the whole story out.

My H never wanted details of the sex. He just said "I can imagine - I've been married to you for 30 years." He also knew it had been very ordinary - I told him that and it was the truth. It was the how's and the why's and the timeframes that he wanted to know.

My opinion?

It's all about attitude.

Some BSs want every little detail. Positions..did it feel good..what did s/he taste/smell like etc. No limits.

I believe they are entitled to ask and be answered ANYTHING.

Whether it hurts or not...if they want to know it's their decision.

Some BSs don't want ANY information. At all. Even if the WS *wants* to share/unload. They are entitled to that too.

Most fall somewhere in between. There is no right answer...for the BS.

For the WS I believe they must be willing to provide the answer to ANY question or series of questions and be willing to answer them to the BSs satisfaction whether they are comfortable or not.

All I can do is share my experience with you.

I HAD to know and felt I couldn't really move on unless I did. I think it was very important for me to move forward, even though I couldn't save my marriage.

In the end, it didn't matter that I knew the details, but it did help me move on.

Right now, don't ask for the details. She won't want to give them and the insistance to do so will only drive her away. Back off and she'll hopefully open up once she comes around, hopefully.

TF:

You need to know what you need to know. Your BS may have to do this early in the process, she might have to do it later. But she will have to do it. That is how you build the trust and transparency that you need to have a successful M.

You did some things wrong before the A was exposed. I'm glad you have thought about that. My BS did a number of things wrong before my A as well.

Bottom line is, your W and I choose to have an A, and not search for info on how to fix our M. (Like MB!)

Use what you can here to become a better H. Will your M be saved? You'll never know. I still will never say that my M will be fully recovered, but it is better than it ever was before the A.

I didn't vote, but you cannot insist on anything until your wife has decided she wants back into the marriage.

Right now you should be in PLAN A for you, working on you, making you the best man and husband you can be.

Once she wants back into the marriage, you still don't want to "insist" on anything. By then you both would be following POJA for success. But you can make the level of detail you want a BOUNDARY for admission back into the marriage. That Boundary will be part and parcel of following the Harley Concepts and will fall under the Policy of Radical Honesty.

I successfully used the Harley Concepts as one of my Boundaries: We will live by the Harley Concepts or I will choose not to stay in this marriage.

We are Recovered, Happily Married, the Affair is no longer a boogeyman. People make mistakes, make bad choices, and people can and do change. We grow. We learn to make better choices. If you use Plan A to change for yourself, you will recognize that she can change as well. The gift of believing she can change, that her terrible mistake will not define her future, and Who She Is, just as your old patterns do not define you, and Who You Are now, will free both of you to become whatever and whoever you want to be.

Once your WW has recommitted to the marriage I think it's important to get all the details you need. I wanted to know quite a few of the details and my FWW was open to answer them. She now says it was really important for her to have to say those terrible things out loud and see my pain. It has made the A an ugly thing to her and not a cherished memory.

Some people don't want as many details but I think you can't ignore all details. The OMW in my sitch wanted no info and he thinks he did nothing wrong. They just ignore it. I don't think this is great.

Just be prepared that some details will not be as bad as you thought and others will seem like they went out of their way to stab you in the heart. My W and the OM did not have sex as often as I would have thought and only when I was out of town, but I found out she wore the nightgown she wore on our wedding night for him. Those are the kinds of things you must steel yourself for.

Harley has this to say in SAA:

"Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks. So the less time spent talking about the affair, the better. The couple is already painfully aware of the mistakes they made and there's no value in being reminded of what they already know."

My current view: if you need to know details of the A, it's something that should be discussed in an atmosphere of love and reconciliation. No gestapo-questioning. Keep the bigger picture in mind and avoid withdrawing those love units. INSISTING on the details is probably the best way to withdraw love units faster than you can deposit them.

That is because Dr. Harley has never been a BS AND he's a man.

I thouroughly agree with all of Dr. Harley's concepts but there is one thing I don't agree with and that is in the above poster's argument.

I know my H would prefer that I never mentioned the A again and I would predict that most male WSs would feel the same.

MIM, I would point out that the above paragraph refers not to getting all the details, but to DWELLING on the affair. Part of radical honesty is getting the ENTIRE truth about the affair. The BS must know all the pertinent facts in order to move on. Then after the facts are known, the WS should not be endlessly punished for the affair.

You know that's all well and good in theory... but in reality it doesn't work all the time... since WS's are such well practiced liars. How many people here have dealt with lies over a period of months and years before finally getting to the truth. The questioning or interrogating should be a refection of how cooperative the WS is being. If they continue to lie, they should be inetrrogated and even strapped to a polygraph... and if they are remorseful and tell the truth, they should be treated with kindness.

These are not details, these are the basics!! Yes, find out or leave, you'll never have any peace.

Heh. It seems to me that if they're willing to take a polygraph (no way to really compell one) then they're probably in the cooperative category, wouldn't you think?

This just gave me a funny thought. I don't know how much polygraphs cost, but I wonder what would happen if married couples decided to take one like every 2 years just to really enforce radical honesty.

It would give whole new meaning to "trust.. but verify" wouldn't it?

Mys

Hey, ML, I agree with you. We're not in disagreement over this. My concern here is the *how*, i.e. how can a BS get the details of the A that the BS needs to "move on" without love-busting? I've talked with my FWW about this, and it seems that any time I ask something about the A (rarely happens these days, but sometimes it comes up), she perceives that I'm dwelling on it and things start going downhill from there.

I'll be that most WS' don't WANT to be asked about the A; they feel uncomfortable answering questions about it, particularly ones concerning the explicit details. The BS might think they're getting what they need to get, but at the same time they are likely making withdrawals from the love bank.

I agree with PORH, but I don't think that imposing or forcing it on the WS is the way to go. It should be something in which the WS feels encouraged to participate.