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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8
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I was never sure of marriage, always carried doubt with my baggage, it didn't help she always wanted marriage ... it was seemingly *too easy* and I wanted to wait. well, 2.5 years into the relationship, after a week's breakup (followed by a month's bliss) just before the summer, and countless months of my going back and forth on the idea of marriage with her, a whole lot of not having sex, usually my doing, and even more boredom with each other, I finally wake up and see what *I* was doing to our relationship, and that I could fix by fixing myself, and that I could fix what I *thought* was wrong with her by fixing myself. Turns out I didn't realize it soon enough.

Details I can get into, and they are probably more important than I would let myself believe, but for a first post I'll get to the point, especially since I saw another post on mental illness here...

point being, a slightly rocky and largely mundane relationship where the fires of passion were there, but often ignored and usually by myself alone. I fell in love with her all over again after a realization that I am the problem in our relationship... or rather at the time, that I am A problem, and I can not only fix my problem, but hers too, by just fixing my own problems that need to be fixed for ME regardless of her. long story short, I started trying little things, baby steps, and after a week of it working okay enough, we had a magical weekend together! or so I thought.

On Sunday I awoke, made all my plans on how I was going to work on my own issues, how it would benefit us, and ... when the right time to finally seal the deal with her would come. she didn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed either, but she did something a little out of character, and went to church, but actually to register with one, a requirement she says for her to be the godmother of her brother's newborn. there was no indication whatsoever that she wanted my company nor that she would be returning to the church. (I'm agnostic and have have nothing against most religions, with an exception for catholics, she's catholic, or rather, her family is so she is.) we've always understood our difference and accepted it...

when she returned from church, I felt she was in a bad mood. she still says it wasn't so, but she was being pushy and short with me, not at all the girl that walked out that door earlier that morning (not to take a jab at catholics, or christians, but that's nothing new for me to see.) she asked me to go somewhere with her, well YES, I wanted to very much! But I needed a shower, because I took it I sat down and lit up one of my our habits, the deadly cigarette. I'm thinking about her mood and wondering if I should have went to church, but turns out I should have gotten in the shower. three puffs after I lit it she's standing in the doorway already almost dressed in a different outfit (wow 2 minutes? she usually takes 20+) and she snaps at me that I'm not moving.. I've never seen her in such a hurry, and on a SUNDAY with nothing else to do but be together... So I puff one more and go start to undress, not a minute later I'm still partially clothed and she's now yelling... correction, raised her voice (she's NY/Italian, I'm southern, to her yelling is normal communication ... she's not yelling she things, but to me it seems she's always communicating 'normally' and loudly only when she's angry.) Upset, confused, and feeling like my idea of a great day was being ruined, I snapped back for her to go by herself if she was in such a hurry to go (to Sam's Club, mind you, she doesn't even like going there!?) So she did go by herself.

I still spent the day thinking great thoughts, doing things for her. later she returned, and ignored me for the day, was in a horrible mood, etc.

It came to a head when I made her dinner and she finally went for a plate and came into the room I was in, hiding from her, and asked me what MY problem was! well, that was enough for me. anytime she's in a bad mood, it's MY fault. anytime something goes wrong with US, it's MY fault. I blew it, yelled "my fault?!" and left the room.

she's never one to back down from a fight, and loves to push and push, so that she did and chased me into the next room yelling. i yelled back for her to leave me alone repeatedly, and eventually got up and walked to the door and shut it with her standing right on the other side. so naturally she opened it again and walked further in, I put my hand on her shoulder and pushed her out, more accurately walked her out, but that's pushing to her... she must have never really been 'pushed.' but that wasn't good enough either and I said something very hurtful, for her to find another roommate, (an argument-ender that months earlier I had practiced in my head thinking I wanted out, before I realized that I was no angel and perhaps I caused her bad behavior...) but I don't think she heard me she yelled so loud, now calling me names and picking on my insecurities.... basically doing what she has to do for herself in that situation and I responded with a little of my own...

we've had some harsh fights before, and some passionate make-ups, but never near what happened next. I should point out now that there were no substances involved this day (or really any other time we've fought.)

then I got punched in the face, and time seemed to stand still... I put my hand on my jaw in slow motion it seemed, then looked up to see her arms flailing around, possibly drawing back for another. instinct set in and I attempted to grab her wrists, to stop her, and I did. She drew her wrists against her chest and started backing up and struggling like I've never see her. I got a little scared because to me, before my eyes, she was turning into that possessed woman in a horror movie and freaking out. I had no idea how, perhaps my momentum at going for her wrists and her backing up and struggling, but we started falling, her backwards with me on top. I put out a leg to try to break OUR fall, as I'd felt about it at the time, and she landed on her back but not very hard at all it seemed as I was hanging on to her wrists and she had them GLUED to her chest. I just remembered thinking "Oh God, please don't let her get hurt!" Then it was over, I was kneeling over her, still hanging on to her wrists and she continued to scare me and freak out, and yelled for me to let go of her! I stood firm and repeated (yelling) "Do NOT hit me again." after several of the longest seconds of my life and repeating that, and her continuing to do her thing, I let her go as I sprung up and backwards.

She jumped up and threated to call the police, and I yelled in return why would she do that, just for me to press charges on her? (I wasn't realizing at the time what I've always known, the man almost always goes to jail.) I couldn't believe how crazy she'd become. she had the phone in hand but instead called her father, who naturally wanted to talk to me, and threaten me... understandably so, I tried to calmly explain to him that I was NOT going to be physically abused even if it meant restraining her. He didn't argue, just left it at that. She ran around talking to everyone she could on the phone, and constantly repeating "He put his hands on me!" In the middle of it, she continued to insult my every insecurity, accused me of cheating, never loving her, etc.

She packed a bag of clothes and I didn't see her until the following night, around the same time. our relationship was over. another day and she'd found a new place to live though she didn't move out until the weekend, and slept there in the same house until then.

two nights later I poured my heart out to her, tried to make her understand my intentions, how I'd felt, how I'd fell in love with her again, but her only answer is "then where's my ring?" which I had none. I had just THEN before the weekend decided that was my goal with her, a ring, a marriage, 2.5 kids.. not decided, KNEW. I always knew, but this was different because I saw myself as the problem in our relationship (mostly.) well I barely got it all out, every opportunity for her to insult me she did, and bring up our relationship problems. I mentioned her "yelling" and our culture differences, I come from a place where you call little girls ma'am, and you respect other's space, she comes from a loud, pushy, obnoxious background (which she used to freely admit, and warned me about even when I first went to visit her family in NY) .. somehow she took this, which she brought up in the first place, as me insulting her recently deceased uncle from NY who committed suicide! I'm still trying to figure out that one!?

(but we've always had communication issues, I say one thing, she completely misunderstands it or outright heard something different. I used to blame it on the cell phone until it started happening in person... I never paid attention to the fault with her stories of confrontation with coworkers or others in public until one day I witnessed it.)

when I tried to recount what had happened sunday, and to make sense of it, she told me a different story. She told me that I pushed her out of the room, chased her into the hall, grabbed her and threw her on the ground, THEN she punched me in the face which enabled her to break free of my grip (see the flaw in that logic, I don't look it but I weigh 220 and all my leverage was positioned on her wrists if I needed it.)

So for the last almost two months of us being split up, I'm still insanely in love, and going over every possibility of what went wrong in her to make her create the scenario and imagine such a scene in her head. I thought of that question I didn't answer, or perhaps she asked it because she emotionally checked out of the relationship long ago, something I was guilty of also... perhaps there was another feeding her emotional needs and the question was a permission for her to leave me? how could she create such a scene, was I that bad? yeah, I probably was. She still holds firm to her beliefs of that day, and after our first real talk two nights ago, she holds firm that she was 100% committed to me until I "put my hands on her." all her friends, my friends who she felt comfortable talking to, her family, and her coworkers, hear that I've physically abused her. she's justified her decision to leave me..... incidentally she insists she's not with anyone else, but she portrays herself as if she is... she has previously refused to talk with me at all about the relationship, the events of that day, or anything else.


By the way, I still plan on marrying her... despite all my best advice to myself and from others, I'm completely in love and regardless, have always wanted this but been afraid, i'm seeing my commitment issues, my baggage as causing most all of our problems, even if indirectly, and I now see specifically how to fix it. I've learned so much in these last few weeks about myself, about us... I've been a bad person by neglecting her and our relationship and I now know why, and I'm still learning all the time what drives my behaviors and how easy they could be to change, and by changing my bad behavior which I want to do for ME regardless, it would affect her as well. I'm talking about all the small things that go wrong in a relationship that are never a big deal until they add up. major issues we've always overcome, and the small stuff is EASY to change. I have shared my soul with her and her with me, we've been best friends though I pushed her away so much I failed to see that. I resolved that no matter her problems, insecurities, MENTAL issues, I want to work for us and for her, to help her and make myself the happiest man alive by making her unbelievably happy, and prevent all of this mess from ever starting by focusing on the issues from the ground up... from the little things that irritate people about their partners, the small gestures that could be made, which in turn put the other into a better mood, which in turn make everyone happy. I've always been devoted to her, always felt we were meant to be but let my own insecurities and baggage get in the way, and never saw it. I'm ready to let go, and I've got a ways to go before I heal, and before I'm worthy, but I'm determined to win back my true love... the one who also showed me, ever inadvertently, the error of my ways.

so the other night, I start to wonder, because I don't really know how we ended up on the ground that SUNDAY.. everything else is CLEAR, but that is FUZZY. action too fast, or my brain really is the fault one? is it possible? if not the whole story, LOGIC stops from believing that, and last I checked we both agreed about the part of me being over her restraining her at the wrists (though she doesn't used the word restrain) ,,, but is it possible that it's partly true? did I put her on the ground?

I fully intend to seek some professional help but reasonably speaking, I'm BROKE and the insurance which does include mental, doesn't kick in until next month. speaking of, I tried to get her to go to a counselor before about her anger issues, and our communication issues, a full year prior. she told me it was I that needed to see one and refused to go. despite what I felt, I did present it to her as "we" need to go, and eventually got a visit out of her under the guise of pre-marital counseling. that worked great for us and even the counselor said she hated to take our money, we just weren't in a time of crisis. we made plans to go back but never did.... I surprised myself by the growth I made myself after that one session, expecting it to all be about her.. in any case.....

whether it was her or me, I've not spent the last two months trying to argue about it with her, or bringing it up, or spreading the word around town as she's done, or posting about it on myspace, or any of that she's done, and rallied quite a large bit of support for herself while at it...

the truth is, (and I did tell her this eventually) though I don't believe it, I RESPECT HER for leaving me based on what she saw. Therein lies the problem. I respect her for it because it's how I was raised. my father was abusive and violent. that's her largest argument for proving she was right about that SUNDAY, her basis for clinging to the idea that I abused her sunday, not the other way around.

but... my father got droppend when I was 6 because my strong mother wouldn't have it for us, and she got away. good for her! of course I now respect my michelle for leaving me considering her belief about that day. the catch also is, at least my father never laid a hand on me or my mother, but it was still no excuse.

I grew up with my mom's new husband, a sweet silent type that lets her push him around all he wants too. I know both father figures have given me my own issues and behaviors. I spent a great deal more time around the [censored] cat father, and honestly I feel his influence caused me to bottle my anger, back down from my conflict in MY relationship, and keep my mouth shut about it. michelle realizes none of this.

but, what's done is done. now, I'm just grasping at any way of winning Michelle back. I know that only she can decide that, and despite the best advice of friends, that I deserve better... despite all my analysis of the events and our person traits and differences, she's the most special person to me and really a good person all around. I always felt that she carries conflict with her wherever she goes, and I'm mellowing in my old age (hah, 29, we both are) and am more willing to let things go. she's the most beautiful person to me in body and spirit, and recently I realized she's my favorite person, always the one I want to tell about something funny that happened to me today, or seek comfort in my problems (even when my problems are her and I feel I can't confide in her, and really, I've tried in the past but have always met with resistance and anger from her, though I quit trying and for a good year and a half, never tried again.) part of my initial attraction to her was her kindness and altruism. her life's ambition is to teach autistic children, which is what prompted US to move to another city two years ago, for her to realize that dream and take her first job as a teacher of these kids. despite our differences, though she believes they are a problem for us, I believe they are a glue. I cannot imagine a better person to be with.

so now I'm left with the bottom line. according to her, and everyone around her, that sunday is the sole reason she will not come back, (and again, I can't blame her for it though I don't believe it.) she even started to come running back to me a few weeks after our separation, but surely it was her friends and family that kept that from happening, and now she's on a "strong person" kick, that she's being "strong" by denying her feelings for me and staying away from an abusive partner. I can't blame her for that, but the problem is this, IT'S NOT TRUE! Not in my head, not by anyone who knows me. all of my friends save one I've picked up in this new city, all have 10+ years of knowing me, they all think she's nuts. I'm starting to wonder now, but it doesn't change the events of that sunday. I believe she was abused in the past and I was told from almost day one that was the one thing that would make her leave someone no matter what was at stake or no matter the consequences. I respect that, and I've accepted that she may ... WILL never believe MY side of the story and I've not pressed the issue.

you see my situation. I guess I want to know, HOW could I convince her that it didn't happen? I honestly gave up on that. Now I just want to convince her that "it won't happen again" which is what she is afraid of and supposedly the only reason why she won't come back. I realize that there are still other possibilities, that she IS in fact at least emotionally involved with someone else, attracted to someone else, and I honestly don't care. Truth is, I believe her when she tells me she's not dating, not trying to move on, had no other reason for leaving me, still wanted to marry me through all the BS we went through together, and is still crying all the time over our breakup. I believe she still loves me deeply. she says she wants to be friends, but in reality she won't let me close to her at all until she feels safe, or according to her, until she feels safe from our emotions getting in the way.

Initially she wouldn't let me have her new address, and I didn't press it. weeks later, she wanted me to have it, but I held firm in her initial rule that I wasn't to know until I moved out of the place we lived together and was locked into a lease at an apartment... thinking she was afraid of us getting back together, which I find out now was in fact true. she initially said the week after, that if we both changed ourselves and our bad habits, if we found ourselves again that had gotten lost in our failed relationship, and if we were still friends in 4 or 5 months, she saw no reason why we couldn't get back together. SWEET! I coasted by almost a month into the breakup on that hope alone!

now she's changed her mind, and insists that it won't ever be with us again, but that she'll never be with ANYONE again. I know that'll change, and I'm a patient guy, but I also know that when it does change, at the rate we're going now with her not wanting to talk with me, give me her address (which I'm not pushing it, but she has a recliner she's trying to give to me and can't get it moved by herself, so there it sits) I feel time is slipping away and when she does snap out of it, it's some other dude she'll fall for. maybe hurt herself worse this time, maybe come back to me after, which I'll wait for and suffer silently, or maybe due to her own issues, and maybe any acceptance she'll pick up between now and then, maybe she'll stay with that other dude...

but still, she insists she's hurting, but she's not the only one hurting... and she doesn't want to hear of my pain but has no problems asking me what's wrong when I'm lethargic or emotional and she calls about something... now she's quit calling, but will answer my calls (but not my emails) we went out "as friends" twice over a week ago, which really crushed me and I think it affected her badly too, pretty much since then she's just not talking. I know she goes out a lot with her friends now, but I don't know how much she is running away from something, or towards something else....

I wrote her a letter earlier this week, hand written, with my feelings and some confessions about my issues and how they've messed up our relationship, and that got her to talking to me, only enough to argue and tell me all these things, about her being done with not only me as a partner, but anyone. how she's changed her mind and now believes the marriage she once wanted so badly can never happen for her, how she no longer wants to have children because she has her students, etc., how she only wants friendship from me. I know she's hurting badly, but I believe it's bad for me too, because I still believe what I remember about that day, not her. I feel like it's all been thrown away on a lie. I've lost two inches on my belly since the breakup, retreated in to all kinds of self-torture both mental and physical, come to some shocking discoveries about myself, and ... well now it's time to straighten up and work on my future and my health, and I will. I just can't come to terms with what happened to us, and what I can possibly do to turn it around for us. to me, maybe there shouldn't be, but there still is an "us."

What can I do... or rather, what should do? It took 4 people last weekend to talk me out of selling some very important stuff to buy her a ring. I know now perhaps I'm starting to become unhealthy about my determination, and I've backed off, and I realize I can and will live without her if I must, I will move on if I have to, and I will work on the problems I now know I have regardless of what happens with us.... but that just isn't the outcome I want when I had planned on proposing to her in NY over thanksgiving in front of her family that she seems to think I hate so much. She doesn't know it, but it was going to happen. I know I can, but I just don't know if I should let go of someone so special to me, over what I believe is A LIE IN HER HEAD ... when she still insists that she would marry me tomorrow if only that didn't happen! why would she torture me with that if it wasn't true? I also feel the possibility it's me who is the crazy one..

I also feel that if I presented her with the ring, proposed... and I got rejected, it would crush me and I'd just never talk to her again because I couldn't handle even being friends with her. maybe that would help me to just move on? and if she accepted, though I know the chance is less than 1%, especially with her strong support group thinking I'm an abuser, and her family (a hard obstacle in my future if she did accept) but I would work through that gladly. if she did accept and make me the happiest man alive, then GREAT. yes, I am aware that if there's a mental problem, and it's her, that it could surface again later in life with the stakes higher, and she feels the same way (about me supposedly being abusive, of course) but I am willing to work my butt off to prevent that and never give her a reason to get upset or be anything less happy with me, with us... I've also considered that she also has a self-defeating prophecy, and happiness is exactly what drove her to that... but I'm over analyzing the situation I think. I just feel that if I don't propose, I could never have her again and regret it every day of my life always with the "what might have been" punishment. I feel I must at least try, not just for a future with her, but for my own personal health and happiness later in life, knowing that at least I actually gave it my best shot, instead of running away like with so many other times in my past. with the tiniest bit of worry creeping in that I might become obsessive, I don't think I'm there yet and I don't think I will be after a rejection... but, then there's the MAYBE she could say, or the not now, etc. then the rejection later on..

and I think, either way it could happen, should I put myself through this? will I certainly push her away, ruin my chances in 4 or 5 months with us after things have calmed down? or will I ruin those future chances by NOT showing her now what she refuses to believe, that I AM willing to marry her. (you see, she still doesn't believe that I ever planned to propose, she things my emotions now are due to the breakup, and fails to recognize the efforts I made only a short week prior to the breakup, and fails to see that I fell in love with her all over again then... it just happened too quickly, too soon, and from her perspective it is a convenient lie I'm telling, and I don't blame her! I realize how it looks!) So I'm afraid I would ruin my future chances by not at least showing her now that I'm serious which she still fails to believe...

ok I'm just babbling now, so take what you will from this, please excuse if I'm incoherent at times, I'm tired and an emotional wreck most of the time.

any advice? I might not like it, but I'll certainly appreciate it, and I'll try to keep future postings smaller <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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I'm sorry you're in this position.

How old are the both of you?

Do you intend to have children and expose them to this drama?

IMHO, you both need a lot of counselling BEFORE you commit to each other for life. Marriage isn't going to change either of you and fix your problems...it will just make it harder to walk away if you realize it can't be fixed.


AKA VowsRSacred/ VRS Me 44 WH 46 dd Mar 7 06 Dday 2 Jan 19 07 EA and PA DD 19 DS 10 DS 7 DD 4
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Unless you have some really broad shoulders to carry all this on, you'd better rethink making a commitment for marriage. Matter of fact, I'd say to move the other way, get away while you are still on the outside of the situation as much as you are. Her behavior in my opinion merits a visit with a doctor and if she won't seek help and medication then there is nothing you will ever be able to do to help her. You may think you are in love with her, but soon after the ring goes on and the new wears off the old troubles will set in and those stay forever. If you can't work on them now, you certainly won't work on them later, and your options are better now than after marriage.


Phil
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we're both 29, and I do have broad shoulders philc <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I've carried our problems inside me almost without a word for most of our 2.5 year relationship. it wasn't until right before the breakup that I realized the extent of MY problems with our relationship and how they were creating (or merely amplifying) her own issues. I really am starting to notice that while YES, she doesn't think she has any issues and she is is INCREDIBLY BAD at working on mine, or OUR relationship, she was at least the only one trying right up until just before the end... Despite that I do fault her for not knowing *how* to help us, I figure it's just conditioning, how women grew up *thinking* they need to treat men one way, date boys and jerks all their lives, and when the get a REAL man they only know how to do things all the wrong ways... I could elaborate, but I'll leave it at this: trying to get my attention by turning me on is ok, but trying to do it by making me feel I'm in a strip club or something, that's not. I need affection, not nudity no matter how appealing it is to me... I can name off so many examples in other areas, but it's pointless. I went into more detail in the General Questions II forum as I saw it suggested to others to post there due to the high traffic.

I have to give her credit, I can be a difficult guy to work with, and I always misinterpret a woman's clues. All throughout our relationship, when *I* was acting the way I should have been, she was my perfect girl; when *I* was screwing up, that's when she became the one that everybody here sees. I've learned about many of my mistakes recently that I've never had to face before.

So now my only issue with this whole thing is that had I figured this out earlier, would we be where we are now, or would I still be planning on proposing at her family gathering in NY over turkey day? Would we have had the fight we did, and would she have confused it in her mind to play out the very way that gave her an excuse to leave me? I spoke with her last week after a good bit of silence, and she reaffirms she went from "marry me" to "we're done" based solely on what she thought happened that sunday. She's had some damage in the past I believe, and told me early on she'd leave anyone, husband of 20 years or not, if they physically abused her. that was her out and I think she created it because of MY behavior, or maybe she saw that MY behavior was starting to turn around, that we were happy together again, that the big M day was coming soon...

I don't know these things, but I've loved before, been IN love before, and wanted marriage before, enough to know that I don't just fall harder with every new relationship, and I've never had anything like this; (I believe she feels the same way and she's not exactly having an easy time of leaving me either, and she's now decided she never wants to get married because of me) and I have a hard time (to say the VERY least) letting the most important thing in my life, and the rest of my life, walk away from me (and suffer so badly herself) over something that didn't happen...

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AND, even if I can't "win her back" and eventually move on, and even if I can unpack all the baggage I'm going to carry around now because of this, and that because of the love I hold for her, and especially because of the circumstances of our breakup, I seriously doubt ever being able to give my whole heart to another.

This is a pretty messed up situation.

I'm good at using my head over my heart, which is why I waited so long and never 'decided' to marry her sooner, but it was no decision that made me know it just before our fight, and despite what my heart has to say on the subject, even now when my brain should be telling me "RUN AWAY!" ... it's not! It's like I've reasoned out logically how to work it out, prevent it from happening again, the whole thing... it just fails me as to how to start the process now that we're in this mess. *sigh*

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well, initially she told me that we both needed change (which is obvious) and that if we were still friends in 4 or 5 months that there shouldn't be any reason why we couldn't get back together. though she's changed her mind about that, it's about all I have to cling to. she still wants to be friends but is having a hard time doing it, as am I, and I'd assume it's because of oh I dunno, LOVE...

because of this I have no idea if it'll work, but the plan is this: I'm saving up for a ring anyway, probably sell some junk, maybe even my computer (she always felt quite seriously that I had an EA with it hah!) the idea is, make my proposal anyway. I figure a 1% chance of a yes and even that'll be conditional, but the hope is that if she doesn't freak out and run away, I'll give it to her and ask her that if she feels some day that she can wear it for me, to find me and try it on. maybe then we can see a counselor together (we did at one point for premarital a little over a year ago, but were told we weren't in trouble so we didn't need to come back yet, we just never went back) and i'll certainly be seeing a counselor in the mean time anyway, so perhaps we could get some things worked out over a decent (or even lengthy depending on the advice of the counselor) engagement period. I realize it's a pipe dream but I haven't heard a better idea .. (sorry, but after all that's happened I don't yet consider "RUN AWAY" a better idea even if it actually is, but I do appreciate the advice and if it keeps coming back the same, and if she doesn't come around, well I'll just have to take it...)


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