Hi Dev,



Right.

Well, the point of exposure is to shine the light of REALITY on the sleaziness of the A. THAT is what takes the 'luster' off of the A, so that it no longer holds the appeal it once did for either party.

Right now she's doing what you want her to do b/c of fear.

But, will that fear take the luster off her A the way exposure would?

Or will it cause the two of them to draw closer?

I don't know...I'm just asking.

I'm concerned that she may decide she doesn't like being threatened and will come up w/ a plan to circumvent any exposure you may want to do.




Band practice??? How old is OW?



You're not sleeping together?

Who has the master bedroom?

Why does she say she's not sleeping w/ you?



Please quit telling them what you intend to do.

Don't give away the element of surprise.



I'm sorry.

It's gonna be tough.


It wasn't YOU who chose to have the A... these consequences are a result of HER choice, not YOURS.

~ Marsh

True. I'm pretty sure they have stopped seeing each other, but even she admits that given the fact that they see each other every day, they may just 'relapse' and get back together again. They HAVE been talking, when they see each other alone at the office and she admits that she has feelings for the OW still (I can tell by the tears in her eyes.. which further pisses me off).


Think she plays the drums at her church, and the band practice was more like a jamming session with her band buddies. She's prob close to my wife's age, around 28 or so.



Since the day I found out (was only a week ago) she said she needed her space to think and to be alone to think. So she took her pillow and went over to the second room and has been sleeping there since. I still have the master bedroom. I did ask her to come back when she's ready and she just says she wants to sleep there for now.



Heheh, yeah. Think I wanted THEM to squirm for a change instead of it being me who's constantly sick with suspicion etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Yes, it will. The more 'sensible' thing would for her to send out her resume and job applications and to then tender when she gets a solid offer. But that will take months and a lot can happen in that time. Sigh.. I regret that we didn't save up enough for a rainy day


Yes I realize that, and I think she's starting to realize that too. The exposure part really made an impact on her and I think for the first time, she REALLY gave it some serious thought because now its more REAL to her. There are CONSEQUENCES and for the first time yesterday she saw unwavering determination in my eyes when I told her in a calm voice that even if it meant losing her job, I would expose the both of them. There is genuine fear in her eyes now and its hard not to feel ashamed doing it and also a certain amount of pleasure to give back a bit of the pain that I had to endure the past week.

She has gone out for a walk and to think, saying she will leave the mobile in the house, despitme me telling her that there was no point doing that, that I couldn't stop them anyway if they wanted to see of speak to each other. But she left it here anyway.

I know she was in the wrong and all that, but I'm also afraid that if I push her too far, she may do something desperate or stupid again. Would it be better that instead of telling their boss first I tell her sister about it first just to show her I'm serious? Or something... I'm getting confused already..sigh

moving into another room isn't a good thing...try to get her to come back-or move there with her

I think i'm about to chicken out and tell her that I'll give her till the end of the month to resign and in the meantime she should really work on getting another job and not just talk about it. She mentioned to me that sometime last week the OW did mention that she intended to resign, than she got a call from a headhunter.. sometimes I think I should call up the OW and blackmail her to resign, saying that unless she left I would wreck her career... tsk tsk.. looks like everyone emerges from this uglier.:(

I know I can't wait for the OW to resign, but now being the end of the year, its hard to find a job and our finances would not last. Really agonizing over this now..

Anyhow, I told her that enough with the sleeping in the next room nonsense, and that I want her back in the room, TONIGHT. She nodded, but if looks could kill, I'd be dead many times over now.. lol Maybe she wakes up at 5am every morning to exchange SMSes or call the OW? Haha, what a funny thought...

You need to stop making plans with your emotions.

Would you like some constructive ideas?

L.

Dev,

You need to lock up your taker.

You need to read up about Plan A.

You need to quit love busting.

Breaking up your WW's A isn't THE only thing you need to be doing....

You need to focus on improving YOURSELF and trying to win her back to you w/ your love...not your force.

~ Marsh

Here's a post written by a poster named Ark, she is GREAT at Plan A...

Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact...
this is your map to navigating those treacherous waters...

it also is your big moment to diffuse all the excuses WS are prone to use to justify their behavior and choices....

and more you can diffuse their blame...

the bs is "always depressed"
the bs "always wants to talk about relationships"
the bs "is controlling"
the bs "yells all the time"
etc....

the more you remove those things...and the more you remove yourself from any powerstruggles of insanse things...

he said she said..
etc...
the more your disengage from arguements..again the more they have look at their own actions and choices....

here's what I told familymatters..One of the biggest mistakes that people make in plan A is that they begin to meet their spouses needs....and still hold on to great expectations of reward and reinforcement from their spouse....

plan a is ALL about learning to give and do for a bit with NO expectation of ANYTHING in return...

the giving of self and gifts with no strings attached....

I have quoted the silly add campaign for some perfume in the 70's here before...but I think it fits....

It went like this ...

"if you want to get someones attention...
whisper."..

plan a is like a whisper of behaviors and actions...
plan a should not be huge demonstrative expressions of love and romance...

WS are incapable of accepting those things...
part of that is that their actions at the time of continuing an affair are NOT loving and lovable...
and they KNOW it..
sometimes they know it better than their BS...who still want to use words like love to them...

so they get resentful
or shut down
or depressed..
or it solidifies their belief that they are so "bad" or so far gone...it feeds into their excuse and defense of unworthiness...

plan a is about filling the home with love and light in other ways...

it about an upbeat environment without the deep doom cloud hanging overhead..

it is about a home filled with children's activities and joy when applicable and it is about inviting and drawing the wS into those times and activities....

and even when they refuse to come in to the joy...the joy goes on without them...

BS that do a good plan a...say they feel like their WS didn't notice..or only was receptive now and then...and then their involvement and particpation increased...

WS that were handed a good plan a...say they watched and noticed EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING....even when the bS thought they didn't notice a thing....

WS are in great turmoil...and human nature is in conflict to take ALWAYS the path of the least resistance.....

the path of least resistance...is withdrawal and wallowing in self loathing and pity..

the path of least resistance is the OP..for they can not judge and force the WS to see their own actions...because they are as guilty as the other....

so plan A'rs.....need to stop ALL relationship talk..
all talk of love...

you do things that are subtle...
like put a CD in that the WS likes...and just enjoy if yourself...and if they enjoy it also...so be it..
even better yet when it is a blast from the past CD...one that speaks of a history...without blatant insistance that the wS remember this or that....

just history...

the person in plan A...needs to be upbeat and charming...they need to see that the BS is capable of fun and joy...because if all they ever see is a BS lost in the pain..then it will solidify their belief that the pain the WS has caused will never go away...and no one can stand to see the pain they have inflicted day after day...(unless psychotic or sadistic)

the person in plan a needs to engage family and friends in fun activites always always always inviting the wS to join in...
they need to see that things can and could be normal again....

plan a can be leaving a love note...but more impressive a joke...
buy an old farside book and make copies of the really really funny ones....
or the old calvin and hobbs.......
and leave those posted about...
WS seek false joy and laughter....
bring them back to real laughter.....

plan a'rs need to learn to babble back to the insanity that Ws say..and give the babble no leverage or "to die for importance"....

plan a'rs need a time limit of doing plan a with a concrete plan when to go to plan b..
the better the plan b..the better the reality of the consequances of plan b...

make plans to things the wS likes to do..
baseball games..
movies
etc..
and when they dont' want to go..
still go and do them..
be up up up up beat...

draw them to you and your home like a moth to a flame...

work on yourself
find an outside interest that gives you some relief ..

expect nothing nothing nothing from the Ws within a limited time period and free yourself in to the ability to give and do for your spouse better than you ever had....

WS are not used to getting thing with no strings attached....
it will confuse and baffle them...but when they try to use the old "your pressuring me excuse"..it will fall on their empty ears..cause they know that has not been the case..

take them a coffee expresso piled high with whip cream...at work or bring it home to them...and leave it for them..
don't badger them to thank you
don't badger them to tell you how much they liked it..
lay it at their feet and walk away whistling...
find the joy in the act of giving and doing and not in the receptiveness....

hard hard hard hard it is......
but set the time frame and go for it....
anyone can do anything for six weeks..
(except ATKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )

and pray for Gods Grace to enter your heart and home...
pray for serenity...
make you house the home where you and the kids and WS would want to be....


become strong...
become confident
become engaging and charming...

realize that YOU the BS are not lovable or desirable..based on your spouses giving or taking of love...
that you stand alone in this world..
lovabe and desirable...inspite of your spouses...


that's why plan A is all about each and every encounter and glimpse in to you and your home life being as engaging and attractive.....


plan a is all about doing what you can to end an affair....
plan a is built on the presumption that they are in contact...
that's why your contact needs to be better and with more value and depth....

this does not mean that you don't set boundaries on what you will tolerate in your life..

you will not "babysit" the kids so she can go with the OP...

you don't condone any contact..
but you don't powerstruggle it either...


if you think your spouse is going to go out with op don't make it easy for them..don't watch the kids...make plans first...and leave him or her with the kids...etc

hope this helps some..
ark”

Hi all,

First off, thanks for all the advise and words of encouragement, I REALLY do appreciate hearing from you guys. However, let me start off with what happened before I tell you about what I'm feeling right now.

I left off with me threatening her with exposure and had given her an ultimatum to resign by Monday (today actually). She was really working on her resume and sending out applications yesterday, but we both know that we would not be able to survive for long on a single income. I faltered when I realized that yes, I can insist that she resign, and she had already agreed (though she was depressed as ******), but what good would it do us to find ourselves devoid of 1/2 the income, have to struggle to make ends meet and STILL be depressed, angry and resentful of each other? So, I prayed. Prayed that God will help me make the right choice and then I told her that I would not give her a deadline, but that she MUST find another job in the next 2 months, and that she MUST try and avoid all contact whenever possible with the OW and she agreed. (yes I can see you guys shaking your heads... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> )

Anyway, we sat down and talked (yes again!). Basically this is what she told me:

1. She resents me for threatening her with exposure. It really shook her and was sort of like a wake up call to her, cause she would not want to hurt her parents with this and it has further reinforced her resolve that she will not go back to the OW.

2. She can only remember all the bad times in our marriage, and can't think of any of the good ones

3. She doesn't know if she's cut out to be a "good wife" or a mother. She doesn't know what she wants, but right now, she's sure she doesn't want kids, and she's undecided about the marriage.

4. She IS very sure that the A with the OW is over. She doesn't want to endure the same pain that she had gone through in the last week, and back to hurting her parents etc.

5. Right now, marriage is probably on the low rung of her priorities. She feels that I can't change my ways, says that she's emotionally empty (love bank is in the negative) and that she can't even accept deposits anymore (bank closed).

7. She KNOWS she's hurt me and she knows that all these things are NOT an excuse for what she did. Right now, its not a matter of the OW standing in the wings, she's out of the picture (pretty much), but its a matter between the both of us, whether she feels we can move on or not, or if she wants to even do it.

8. She wants to be left alone for the next few days, to sort out her emotions and thoughts, cause she was really affected when I said I was going to expose her to her family, friends and colleagues.

So yes, the gist of our conversation was like that. I knew she was being brutally honest about her feelings for the marriage, and whether or not she was honest about her and the OW, I told her only God and her and the OW woudl know. But I'm pretty sure she has at least woken up to the fact that that quick 2-week PA was the wrong move.

On my part, I'm starting to lose the urgency of restoring this marriage. My thoughts now is basically this: Why the heck would I want to continut to do this when she obviously has not empathy nor any burning desire to get this marriage back on track? It was also partly for this reason that I told her to try harder to get a new job, but that I wouldn't expose her right now (she was VERY affected by the threat of telling her mum). I feel that at this stage, she doesn't want to resume the A (she's quite sure and I am 90% sure also), so exposure will only cause her to hate and resent me and there would be no going back.

I told her that I know now that I was withdrawing from her LB the last 2 years until it was empty, but she withdrew MY LB to almost empty in the last 2 WEEKS. I suggested us both doing the LB and EN questionnaire so we can at least start to do things that will not piss each other off.

She more or less agreed, but said she wanted some time to sort out herself also. She wants to go out to the gym, do stuff with her friend (not the OW), anything but see me every day cause everytime she sees me, she knows I will want to talk about the M etc, and she is fed up at and tired at this point.

Well, so am I. I need some objective 3rd party opinions on this. What more can/should I do? Thanks guys for taking the time to read all of my uber-long posts, it really helps to rant.

you're not supposed to threaten exposure...then they can find a way to lessen the damage...you just DO IT

honestly. if you aren't going to listen to the good advice posted here and are going to do things your own way, you have less chance of saving your marraige

If you want the marriage you'd better get yourself into a good Plan A! (Such as the one Ark wrote above.) And you'd better develop alot more patience than you have.

You should quit talking about your M and R.

Your WW doesn't feel any love towards you right now.

I'd go so far as to suggest that the biggest reason she's staying w/ you is b/c she's trying to keep you from exposing her A.

That doesn't bode well for you.

You're gonna have to dig deep w/in yourself and patiently reach out to her w/ lots of love.

You might want to consider IC for yourself.

~ Marsh

You've only been married 2 years, have no kids, and are now trying to save your M from a lesbian A, are you sure it wouldn't be easier to cut your losses?

~ Marsh

Hi guys,

Yes I know that the advice given here is all good advice, tried and tested, and I really apprecitate that...BUT... its excellent advice for spouses whos partners are still in a relation with the OP. It exposes them, it makes them realize the A for what it is, a dirty, dishonest and sleazy relationship and the Plan A and B are very logical steps for restoring the marriage.

However, at this point, I really believe that the A is over. Sure there are some residual feelings from it, but I really think that its over, and that she knows and will not continue the A anymore. She needs time to rethink the marriage and yes, thats also understandable cause I've really been pushing her to end the A when it is most likely already over and she's trying to determine if she wants the marriage. Right now the biggest obstacle is whether we want the marriage or will do what it takes to restore it. I know you're probably thinking that I'm believing her lies, and have started to believe it because I want to. Well, I have doubts too, and even though I know that this person I'm talking to is not the same dependable, honest WS I knew before, I really don't feel any guile or dishonesty from her when she tells me its over btw her and the OW and right now the issue is btw US. IF you see it from this point of view, an exposure right now will only serve to PERMANANTLY kill whatever chance we may have at restoring this marriage.

I agree and will implement parts of plan A at this juncture. I will NOT talk about the M or A, even if it kills me. I will try to feel better about myself, and really, I have improved over the last 2 days. I will not call and ask where she is or if ask innocently who she is with. I will start to do things for her and to show her more love, attention and affection. And even if it kills me, I will have to try and curb my sarcastic tongue. I am also considering a small voice recorder in the car to see if she calls the OW since she would have been more careful about the SMS and call logs after the discovery :P

And yes, cut my losses. You have no idea how many times in a day that crosses my mind. The only thing that keeps me going is that she has been giving and giving the last 2 years and not getting anything back, and the least I could do is to try and stick around and return the favour.

Please don't lose hope on me and continue to post guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess right now, she tells me she's sure she will not revert to the OW, and I believer her, or WANT to believe her. 95% certainty still leaves a huge 5% of doubt, especially since I had the pleasure of experiencing my (previously) God-fearing wife put her hand on the bible and swear that there was nothing going on btw her and the OW - the night before I confronted her about the SMS and she confessed.

Plan A involves exposure of the affair, trying to achieve no contact with the OW and showing her love and affection while getting none in return, and NOT talking to her about the marriage or relationship unless she initiates it while improving on ourselves and moving on, with our without her. Its to basically shed light on the affair and try to kill it out of shame and to show her that she may have someone who loves her unconditionally after all. Plan B (which follows A) is to then cut off all contact with her if she still refuses to come back, so that she will start to miss you and the last she remembers of you is that you were kind and understanding. Affairs will not last, once the initial passion fades, it will start to wither. I have read it, and think its a good plan.

I think everyone has their own version of plan A. For me, I feel exposure at this point wuold be counter productive, and will further push her off the bargaining table, maybe for good. I want to implement the part about not talking about the marriage or affair (though it kills me) and I want to work on myself and move on, while trying to show her kindness and attention when she requires. But what do I do when she just wants to be by herself? Even if that is true, how do I not kill myself with curiousity wondereing if she's with the OW? After revealing to her about the SMS and such, she's probably very careful about communication when at home and will be doubly careful about the mobile phone.

I've been toying with the idea of bugging the car with a digital voice recorder as the only place she can talk to the OW is in there. If they ARE calling each other and talking, at least I will know and then expose them both. If they are not, then it will at least take a load off my mind and I will not make the mistake of pushing her too hard when all she really needs is to spend the time alone to think and sort out her feelings without me or the OW.

At this point, I can't think of anything else to do.. about the only thing I haven't lost is my faith and I still pray daily that she will 'wake up' and want to come back and make this marriage work.

I have to agree, better to cut my loss. No children, W sleeping with an OW. I would just leave and if W wants to be with OW ok, want to talk that would be alright as well. But I for one would be moving out of HH (happy home) as soon as possible. Sorry, I know you love this person, but it's hard for some of us to relate....

Hi sag06,

I don't think they've been sleeping together, the furthest it got was holding hands and making out in the car on 2 occassions. The physical affair is not as strong a bond for a woman, and they are BOTH women in this case. Its more of of the emotional attachment for them.

As for cutting my losses, I'm prepared to do that, but I'm not at that stage yet at this point.

Whether you guys can relate or not, I'm thankful that someone out there is listening. Thx anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget the addictive nature of the lovers as Dr. Harley points. You can't lay a bag of heroin on the table and tell the addict, not to take it. NC is crucial.

Put the recorder in the car but don't be surprised if they are still talking. My FWW drug it on for two months longer than she told me she would. Her OM kept expressing his love for her and kept pushing her to leave me.

Interesting thought, this is only a two year marriage with no kids. Most of us went further than necessary to save our marriage for the sake of kids and to keep a long term reationship together. I don't know how hard I would have fought had I been younger with no kids. I would not give her an unlimited time period.

TooSoon

Thanks TooSoon,

I may just pick up the voice recorder tomorrow and see how I can install it in the car where its inconspicious... however, sometimes I feel like I really DON'T want to know.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I may also do the keylogger thing and check her emails to see if they have reverted to that medium to communicate or not.

As for me doing so much when its just been a 2 year M, well, love certainly makes us do stupid things eh? Cliche but true.

For the time period she told me she already had an interview lined up today, from the email she sent out yesterday! So the NC may be closer than I thought <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With her actions to get a new job, complete exposure is not necessary at this time. The need may be there to do so later though. It works to disrupt the affair, but you have things in motion and the affair has been disrupted. Don't trust her words, do the keylogger and recorder and make her account for all missing times.

Just remember, the lovers are emotionally connected and the OW is likley more desperate and doesn't have anyone else right now. She will likely push to keep it alive. At the end of the day, another week or two or four isn't going to change much as long as she has a "real" exit strategy to leave her job.

Don't worry about her lack of love for you now for after NC is implemented, she will be in pain from withdrawal and she will blame you. Eventually, she will start feeling better and less "home sick" for her lover. Keep being nice to her and win her back. Eventually, she will see the good you bring to the table. It might take a few months or more for her to express true remorse and it will take you 18 to 24 months to allow you the ability to "chalk it up" as a bad time in your marriage. You will see improvement as things go. Tell her to express her hurting feeling to you and that you listen without ongoing criticism. She will have the need to talk and you want it to be you, not the OW. You never forget, but you go forward. Recovery seems worse than the affair stage because you wonder why things move so slow.

Your comments about not wanting to know if the affair is still happening, I understand those feelings. I knew deep down inside she was having an affair, but I was afraid to address it it too. I wish I had earlier than I did, because the longer it went, the closer they got.

My marriage is not perfect, but we are working decently together to accept each other as we are. After all, love is simply choosing who you live your life with, who you bury your parents with, who you help when they are down, and just having a friend and companion to be with.

I hope you can rebuild and make your marraige better than it was before. This time is a great wake up call to never neglect her emotional needs again, as I am better aware of im my marriage.

TooSoon

Thanks TooSoon. I too feel that no matter what her motivations for getting a new job (in this case its prob 50% career advancement, 50% fear of exposure) the end result would be separation of them both. However, that said, just because they change jobs doesn't mean that they won't still continue to keep in contact.

On the OW, I know they are talking to each other, cause I asked her if she told the OW about her getting called for interview and she said yes, but she just mentiond that she was looking for another job. The OW told her to stay and that she would leave instead. This is all she told me when I asked, and she said that apart from that they have not really been talking. But I don't know if they are still text messaging each other, or talking on the phone when she's at work or driving.

Right now, we have become 'normal' again. Apart from trips to the gym, she comes home after work around 7-730pm, which is her usual timing from before this. She kisses me goodnight and before she leaves for work (with some prompting sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). Last night I didn't push her to talk about it, I've heard almost everything, well, everything that she's prepared to tell me anyway. I think she's trying to be honest when I ask about stuff, cause she could have easily told me that they had stopped talking etc. I'm giving her her space to think and make up her mind about what she wants to do or how to proceed. I won't push her to talk anymore for another week, but when I left some of the articles I printed from the MB site, she does sit and read them, without any prompting from me, so maybe a good sign.

I will seriously consider bugging the car, and I won't be surprised if they are still talking. What I would be more concerned with is WHAT they are talking about. I understand it can be hard to let go, since they've become close friends (well, apart from the physical stuff) and still feel the need to talk and share. But I will be able to detect if there's anything more than that from the conversations.

I thought we were attempting to recover but I found out she was looking at apartments and furniture with the OM. The duel life and the woman you thought you knew really changes your perspective about them forever. Even after two years after DD, I know my FWW is "capable" of doing it again. I never originally thought she was capable. Hopefully, she learned her lesson and won't let her guard down. There is hope though. I think you are making great progress.