Thanks again for your views and for sharing.

Actually, right now all I can feel is fed up. I'm really red up with the entire situation and just want to move on, with or without her. I used her camera yesterday and when I looked at the pictures I saw a picture of the both of them at the company event that started the whole thing, well, the physical part anyway. All I could feel was shame and disgust, things she apparently doesn't feel or cannot feel.

The whole of last night I was like a polite stranger with her, we didn't hold hands when I accompanied her to pick up her mobile phone (which was sent for repairs) -I didn't initiate and neither did she. We both walked separately, like 2 strangers through the streets. At one point she asked me "Do you want to go for Marriage Counselling?" and I replied "What's the point?"

Thats exactly what I feel right now... what would be the point of dragging this out any longer? A part of her still has affection for me, from the 2 years we were together, but I don't think there's anymore love in this relationship. Her sole motivation for trying to right things now is probably from fear of exposure, not because she wants to try and make it work, or that she feels truly remorseful and sorry for what she did. Some people attribute it to her still being in the "fog" well about now, I couldn't care less if she was in a fog, hurricane or desert, the result is still the same, and that is that she doesn't care for me anymore -all in the name of self-preservation.

I was up the better part of the night thinking of which things in the house I would take, and which she would. Maybe I'm the one in the fog, eh?

I really need a 3rd party's view on this. I don't want to jump into a decision like this when all I have to back it up are my frustrations, anger and feeling of despair. Help!

I just told her we needed to talk tonight. I said we should be honest with ourselves even if we can't be honest with each other. I asked her if she loved me, or is it solely from fear of exposure that she's staying? I said I'm really tired. I said its evident that she has feelings for the OW still, more than she does for me or our marriage, and its time to let go, either way.

Strangely enough, I feel pretty calm right now. Sad, but my emotions are not in a washing machine at the moment.

Dev,

You aren't going to get a reasonable reply from your fogged out WW.

YOU decide if YOU want to save this marriage or not.

YOU decide if you want to ride this rollercoaster ride any more or not.

If you want to try to recover your marriage than don't look to your WW to help you.

You read up on Plan A...set a time limit (for yourself, you don't tell her the time limit.) and then you work the plan INSPITE of what WW does.

6 months is generally a good time frame for a plan A...while you're watching yourself from LBing, and becoming a more loving caring person...

It's a process.

You're only a few days out of D Day.

You're gonna have bad days...

That's what this place is for...

You come here instead of telling your WW that maybe you're ready to move on...you come here and say it...talk to us...

W/ her, your montra needs to be, "I'm committed to this marriage."

IF you want your marriage that is.


~ Marsh

Just wondering. Is this a common statement by WS's? That they want time to be alone with their thoughts? That they will not see the OP, and that they just want to sort out their feelings towards the R and M? Or is it just a way for them to distance themselves from you while at the same time continue on the A? I'm not talking about the WS moving out or anything, just that they want to be left alone to think. How long should we allow them to be alone, if at all?

Distancing yourself from your spouse is common during an A and during w/drawals.

Spying is the best way to determine which is going on.

I'd venture to say that you are talking about your M and R...and THAT is a big no no.

Part of plan A is accepting that you can't know how things will work out for you. So, asking her to talk about your R is a love buster. You want to fill her love bank, not deplete it.

Quit the R talk.

Accept the uncertainty of your sitch.

Stay present.

Improve yourself.

Give her space while lovingly reaching out to her.

~ Marsh

Thanks pal.

If you see a few posts up, I have already told her we needed to sort things out, tonight. At this stage I will just give her 2 options:

1. We continue like nothing has happened (to the rest of the world, especially around Xmas). I will try to implement the plan A, but I don't know if I want to snoop around and spy on her anymore. I won't reveal the A to her family yet, I won't talk about the R or M until she is ready.

2. We separate and both look for a new place to stay. The story comes out to everyone, and we will probably end up in a divorce.

I hate to say this, but right now option 2 is more to my liking. I'm a bit of a control freak (not a lot, just sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and I don't think I could last 6 months or even another 6 weeks of plan A!

She hasn't replied my text message which I sent out earlier so who knows what she's thinking now.

Would I get an honest answer if I asked her:

1. Do you love me?
2. Do you want out marriage to work?
3. Do you want to at least try?
4. Or is it fear of exposure your only reason to stay?

I know this is a huge LB, but I have to know. I have to know if there's a good enough reason for me to grit my teeth and endure this. And I also know that she may not give me an honest answer, or even be honest with herself. Thats what makes all of this so crazy.

She's who she is, but I'm saying she's not who she is right now, but am I just kidding myself?

Dev,

Only YOU can decide whether or not YOU want to fight for this marriage.

She doesn't love you like you want her to...RIGHT NOW.

That doesn't mean she WON'T love you again.



Recovery takes a LONG time.

In it you will learn things about yourself you never knew before....

Whether or not you recover your M, you will become a BETTER man for having gone through this process.

If you don't like the fact that you're a control freak, recovery is a great place to learn what you can control and what you can't.

OTOH, you have a biblical right to D your WW. And if you aren't up to the fight, then you might as well D now.



You might.

Her answers may be...

1) No, not like I should...RIGHT NOW.
2) No, I don't, RIGHT NOW.
3) No, I don't, RIGHT NOW.
4) Yes, that is THE biggest reason for staying, RIGHT NOW.

The key words you need to focus on is "RIGHT NOW!"

In other words, her feelings and desires only reflect her feelings NOW...not necessarily tomorrow, next month, or next year....

If she maintains NC, you quit DJing her, improve yourself, Plan A your a$$ off, she will feel differently about things later.

The question is, are YOU up for the challange?



She can only tell you how she feels at this moment in time...she can't tell you how she'll feel tomorrow.

You have to accept uncertainty.


YOU have to find the reason to try to save this M on your own...



It's only crazy if you are looking for certainty.

~ Marsh

Hi Marsh,

Thanks for your very objective views.

She replied my earlier text saying, yes, we need to talk. 50-50 either way, but I'm leaning more to her saying she'll want to separate or have more time to think. Anyway, after considering what you've said, I replied:

"OK. You finally ready to talk? Or still need time alone to think? If not ready then another time, no point if you're not ready yet"

I think we're both buying time, me because I'm still not prepared to lose her, and on her part... well, who knows what she's thinking?

Just got off the phone with the WS. I asked her if she was ready to talk tonight and she said that she's not sure yet. She said that at this point, she can tell me what she's feeling at the moment, but she cannot give me a yes or no answer as to whether she wants this marriage to go on or not. I said I'm tired. Tired of the fighting, and tired of trying to make something work when she doesn't even know if she wants it. She said she knows, and she can see that I'm tiring out, but still can't say exactly what she wants.

I said she will not be able to make that decision as long as the OW is still in the picture, and she agreed. She says its hard when she sees her every day, and though its not like they're 'seeing' each other, they still cross paths every day, so its hard.

Anyway, I said, ok. We'll continue the conversation tonight then. I don't know if I can wait until she finds another job, and then still have to wait for her decision on whether she wants to carry on as husband and wife. I want a direct yes and no answer, but I know that only I can make that choice now, cause she's not in a position to make these yes/no decisions. Maybe if I ordered a hit on the OW it would speed things up? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ..i'm just joking of course...

Dev,

What if her answer is no?

Would that change what YOU want?

YOU have to decide if YOU want to try to save your marriage and win your W back.

If YOU want to try to save the marriage then MB offers you a plan to follow.

Most WW are so screwed up from their A's that they don't know which end is up. So asking HER to tell you what she wants is like asking a falling down drunk what he wants.

If you want the marriage, you will have to become her light house. You will have to be STRONG and loving. You will have to be willing to change and challange yourself to become a better man.

Your WW needs a hero...a lighthouse she can make her way back to from the fog that is blinding her path.

At this point it doesn't matter what her answers are.

What matters here is, what do YOU want?

Do you want to try to recover your M, learn R tools that can help you have a GREAT marriage?

Or do you want to cut your losses?

Your choice.

~ Marsh

Thanks marsh,

But let me ask you another question, please bear with me:


Do WS's really get so screwed up that they can't think and make the right rational decisions? Sounds more like a cop-out for them to dodge responsibility for their actions. And this uncertainty that my WS is feeling about the marriage, is it really because of this mysterious 'fog' or another excuse for her to buy time and dodge responsibilty??

LOL

Most WS will not admit to there being a fog.

In fact they will tell you that YOU are the insane, controlling one.

Understanding the fog isn't about giving WS's a pass.

It's about getting a handle on what you (BS) are dealing w/.

Every choice that a WS make will still come w/ consequences.

As a FWS, I don't blame anyone or anything on the poor choices I made. But, when a BS wants to understand that vacant look in their WS eyes, I can explain it to them, b/c I lived it.

~ Marsh

Having looked into the eyes of a WW for the past six months I can say that she has woken up for just a few minutes, but like most other altzheimer's patients, they suitably revert to the fogged out babble brook... spouting fictitious fantasy at every turn......

Take heart, though...... many wives have come out of the fog... unfortunately, mine has gotten lost in hers.........

I think (hope, actually) that because my wife was involved with another WOMAN and not a man that it has some difference from most other affairs. Simply put, my WS never had any lesbian tendencies before this and she's is (actually, was) quite the religious sort. I think that has saved her from jumping into it more deeply, or from being able to pull herself away from the OW, at least physically, though she still misses her (if my heart and instincts are tellin me the truth).

Now I'm just trying to figure out if she's reconsidering the marriage because it was just that bad, or is she still fogged up enough from the A to still think like a , errrr, fogged-out WS

I am a religious type.

I had an EA...nothing physical, but the emotional part left me completely loopy.

YOUR WW had a PA....you can tell yourself that b/c it was w/ a girl that what she's experiencing is different than what any other cheater has experienced.

But, I don't see the difference.




She's probably questioning her sexuality, your marriage, her religion, her values, herself ect...

There is so much inner turmoil going on in her head, she doesn't know WTF she wants...or is.

If you want her, follow MB principles...if not then cut your losses.

Your choice.


~ Marsh

i haven't seen my H in over a year now, but that look..i remember like it was yesterday

so many times, when i told him, he really couldn't remember things he had said or done....i believe it....i don't think that look of confusion was faked

shaking his head as he tried to think straight ...tring to piece things together so that what he had just said made sense even to himself....

saying "i NEVER said that" and when i firmly stated the facts, he would yell "well if i said it I didn't mean it!" because he really couldn't belive he had said it....couldn't imagine that he would have

and so often having him look at me like i was the crazy one....when none of it made sense to him, surely it was because i was making things up and twisting things around

and along with that empty confused look.....the haunted look

i can't believe that someone whose soul was in so much pain as it shone through his eyes thinks he found happiness with the choices he made

Thanks Marsh,

I used to not like your replies, cause they were too straight to the point, no punches pulled. Then I realized that you're asking me all the questions I should have been asking myself.

From what I've read so far, its common for a WS to blame the affair on problems in the marriage, such as what my WS is trying to do.

Its also common for them to want time off, either to get us to back off and for them to consider what to do next, or for them to continue seeing the OP.

They also don't want to think or talk about the R or the M -at all.

If they have not gotten complete NC from the OP, then it will be almost impossible to mend the M. This is true even in cases where the PA has stopped, but there is still some residual EA, which I believe is happening to my WS.

They are in a "fog" and can't think properly or rationally the way they were able to. They may know deep down what the real deal is, but the fear and pain of losing the OP overwhelms it.

Have I missed out anything? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You stand to lose her with her being in this undecided state. The OW is pulling her away from you. You either make your wife quit her job immediately, or you must expose her in her work environment and within her family. You are becoming an enabler for her to keep her secret affair alive.

Exposure brings scrutiny to the affair by all and it brings reality to the damage she is causing. If the window of opportunity passes where exposure won't work, then it may be too late. If you want to save your marriage, make her quit her job today or you go to her bosses tomorrow and you fully expose what is going on. This way the lovers will be scrutinized by all even if they even make even the slightest eye contact at work. Her reputation will be that she is a lesbion, but unfortunately, this OW may have turned her into one. It is time to fight fire with fire. Good Luck.

TooSoon

i posted my thoughts about the fog on another thread

[color:"red"] link to my thoughts" (my post is near the bottom of the page) [/color]

When she was slightly late in coming home, I called her, only to get a busy tone. She called back immediately and said she was on the line with her mom, who asked what was going on, cause her sister told her mum that we were having some kind of disagreement. I just told her, so you're going to continue lying about it, even to your mum, eh? She just kept quiet and said she was almost home.

When she got home, I asked her who she was talking to when she got out of the car (I was looking from the window). She looked startled and replied that she was talking to the OW. She said she was late because the two of them were talking for 10-15 minutes in the car park when they left together. The OW apparently asked her what she wanted to do, was she going to work on the marriage, or was she going to just leave it be? My WS denies this, but the OW is still waiting in the wings, cause she told her that 'she would be there for her' and all that kind of stuff. She said the OW also asked her what my WS would want the OW to do. If she wanted the OW to resign, she would (I was rolling my eyes at this point... manipulative B!TCH!). My wife told her that she wants to work on the marriage. She said she didn't want to do something that would lead to more pain and heartache, and as a result we both can't move on after that. And she drove off.

She said the OW then called her (after she had left, when I saw her on the phone) and asked her if she had been just an escape route to escape the troubles in our M. My WS's reply was, initially, it was probably that, but feelings had developed after that but that she was sure she wanted to move on.

Anyway, she said that at this point, her heart is still closed, and its telling her to just RUN, FOREST, RUN! The pain will fade, we'll both move on eventually. But her mind tells her to give it a try, that she'll regret it if she didn't at least give the M another shot. But she said her heart is extremely pessimistic at this point, and that she was sure I would not be able to overcome my resentment, anger. But that most of all, she said she's almost certain that even if we manage to get this back on track, it would go back to the same old thing, I wouldn't change, and she will not tolerate any more.

I told her to think about something. If six months ago she had told me she was having an affair, would I be calmly sitting down in front of her like I am now, telling her that we could work on our marriage? Since she knew me so well, wouldn't she think I would fly into a rage, and probably walk out immediately? She grudgingly agreed. I also told asked her, what did she have to lose by giving the marriage another try? Its not like we're already divorced and want to try again etc. Outwardly, nothing has changed. It will require effort, it will require time, it will require lots of patience, but it CAN work if we both want it to. So she really has nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

I said that if she said now that she wanted to go our separate ways, I would not have any regret because I KNOW that I have done the right thing by trying to save our marriage. But it takes 2 hands to clap, and if she doesn't want to do it, there was no way I could force her to do so. But I told her that I would not pressure her to make a decision tonight, or even tomorrow night, but if she decided to try, she better give it 110%. I would not want to do if she was just going to go through the motions of reconcilliation just to make her feel better about herself, or to help her relieve her guilt. I would also NOT lie for her. If she wanted to lie to her mother, or whomever else, that was her decision to live with, but that I would not perpetuate a lie that she had started.

She replied that at this stage, she was so tired of it all that she doesn't really care if people knew about this. I said that was for her to decide.

She said the night before when I ignored her and walked by myself and didn't want to really talk to her, she said she felt like as though her heart was sinking. The night before, I was not feeling well, and she mothered over me for a while, and it felt like old times again. But she's confused -does she still love me, or was it just residual feelings of affection or duty? She went back to how alone she felt in the marriage, how she used to be afraid of doing something that would result in my scolding her, or how she would just tolerate and take it until the point she just couldn't do it anymore and shut down. My reply was that, yes, the marriage before that had not been a bed of roses, and yes, looking back I wasn't the model husband and I did make mistakes. BUT, right now, she is still trying in a way to justify what she did (I silenced her protest at this point). I said I was NOT going to take responsibility for the affair. *I* did not choose to get involved with another person, *I* did not choose to tell lie after lie, and sure as ****** *I* did not choose to take our marriage and trust and to flush it down the toilet. I said as 'bad' as how she viewed the marriage prior to the affair, it could have still been fixed had we worked on it. But by committing the affar, she had turned a relatively easy task into a huge one.

We then continued talking about bits and pieces of the affair, with me reminding her about the NC once either of them had resigned, and her sharing with me more details of the affair etc. We talked and talked, and I tried to be as objective as possible, and I really think I was detached and saw it like from a 3rd party. In a way, I think that she could open up more to me cause I didn't go into this talk with my heart and emotions on my sleeve.

At the end of it, we cleaned up and went to sleep, at almost 2am. I held her as we slept and before she slept she said, there was one more thing she wanted to tell me. She had already bought the OW a Christmas present, a CD and had it sent to her house. I told her she shouldn't have, as that would make it even harder for both of them to let go, but whats done is done. And we slept.