i read so many BS wishing their [F]WS would join forces with them to build a new and better marriage.

are there any FWS out there with BS that are not really into building a new marriage? or better yet, were not at first but finally did? how did it happen.

or are there any BS out there who initailly took a while to decide to really re-build a new marriage as opposed to just surviving? but then eventually did (RIF you come to mind, hope that does not offend you) what helped you get there?

i know i've said this before here, i still feel a bit stuck in the mud. and i'm not saying it's his fault. i just don't know. we did not end up counsoling with Dr. Harley, DH wanted us to talk on our own. but we have not done that either.

i'm sure i'm just as much to blame for that, i keep myself too busy, i hide. i'm afraid to talk and i hate that we don't. i've not gotten myself back into any counsoling, i'm eating terrible again lately. i know i am doing that so i feel as sick physically as i do on the inside.

and time just keeps ticking.

Hi FL,

For me, the decision to stay in our M was solely for our oldest daughter. Period.

I wanted to run away so badly, but knew that if I did, that our daughter would grow up in a broken home.

After the "final D-Day" 10 years after her last A, there really was no desire to run away... I just knew that we had to do something different in order to rebuild our M. For us, that meant MC and counseling with a pastor at our church... It was very hard for me dealing with all of the past lies and the large time gap as I felt that our entire M had been a lie... However, with proper MC, I was able to work through many of these feelings and eventually get to a place where we could start rebuilding.

At first Mrs. RIF just went through the motions of rebuilding... I'm sure that my attitudes and actions didn't help as I wasn't making a safe enough place for her to really open up with her feelings. Once I learned to control my anger and my temper, Mrs. RIF started opening up.

The reason I share this is that I believe that you must let your H know how important it is for BOTH of you to start rebuilding. It doesn't matter who was the BS or the WS... you are both committed to the M in that you haven't divorced yet... but neither of you have taken the steps to start rebuilding.

FL, tell your H how you are feeling. Let him know that you are committed to him and the M and that you want to start MC. Don't take no for an answer. One of you has to be willing to step out in faith and get the ball rolling... if he won't do it, then that only leaves you. Like I said earlier, it really doesn't matter who starts rebuilding... it only matters that you start.

Let go of your "WS/FWS" status and recognize the fact that right now, today, you are a committed W that wants to rebuld her M and that you are going to do whatever it takes to make it happen. You can do this...and I think you'll find that once you start the rebuilding process rolling, that your H will soon join in.

Semper Fi,
RIF

i know. why am i so deathly afraid to??

i know you cannot answer that question.

Hey there FLT2H,

I liked what Rif had to say, and especially noted this part,

It's human nature to fear change, so don't beat yourself up for being human. Instead let's talk about fear, and what may be driving it.

Thinking about Rif's last comment again, I'm curious what role your status as the formerlyW plays in your fear. Do you think it's significant for you in a way that hinders your perceived 'right' to lead change in your marriage?

If not, that is great, because it's a sign you've been able to learn to forgive yourself, and possibly means that you feel fully forgiven as well.

I'm glad we're talking about this, because it occurs to me I should check in with Mr_Incredible and see whether he feels fully forgiven nowadays. We haven't talked about it for a long time. I think it does take time for the new changes we make to 'settle in' and feel real.

When we get stuck in a rut in our marriage things can quickly go awry as we all here well know. But so many marriages get bogged down in these ruts, so why does it happen?


All these four factors can add to the fear of change in the marriage, which breeds resistance to change, which, in turn, prevents movement and hinders healing and growth.

We get stuck in that rut. I've also noticed that once stuck in the rut we notice it, and it makes us more uncomfortable, like a dull toothache. We may even fear that any changes we try will make things worse! Very like a fear of going to the dentist. And you know what happens, the longer you put it off the worse it gets until it becomes a crisis. The dentist invariably says, "why didn't you come in right away?"

Because change is inevitable, if we are not actively growing together in our marriage, we will grow apart. This is what lawyers refer to as "irreconcilable differences". But by being flexible and adaptable and driving the change in the direction you want, instead of allowing your fears to drive the change, you can manage how you grow together.

So first, I suggest really trying to find the root of the fear, what you are deep down most afraid of: is it his rejecting your ideas? His disrespecting your right to ask for change? Is it that you feel unsure what's the best course of action? (that seems sort of a no-brainer but is it a by-product of the deepest fear or the root itself?)

Open up and get talking on a friendly level with your hubby and find out what he's hoping for, that can help you brainstorm ideas. Maybe by focusing on what would give each of you a happy future in your marriage you will come up with direction on how to make it happen. Don't dwell on the past mistakes, focus on celebrating your new beginning, life's what we make it. Look how far you've made it already.


Off the topic, for some reason I've used a lot of teeth analogies lately and I'm not sure why. Maybe I should schedule an appointment with the dentist?:D

*Strengthening the Couple Relationship

FLT2H,

You have read His Needs/Her Needs and notice how different men vs women communicate? Compare that dysfunction (by gender) with the fact that some people just do NOT like to communicate with someone who is of their family. WHAT!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> YEP, now the question is, is your H one of those? I gotz one in my house and I had to blow that cover. Ok, I'm the talker but it took over 10 years to find out that H does like to talk but he isn't social in his convo....if it about his interests he talks, if it about someone elses' interest he gets bored or doesn't respond. Very selfish right? Well, I tolerate less and he either steps up to the plate or I will leave him all alone.

For example, one time in a restaurant in Lake Tahoe.....we went to the snow with 3 other families and all went to dinner at one of those buffet places. Lots of laughing and talking....real nice evening, except for 'el grumpo. People weren't as attentive to his stories so he fell asleep after dinner. We were seated along the wall and there were about 15 of us. All long time friends, everyone knew H was a bit on the quiet side (except when it came to skiing and stuff like that - then he was the grand organizer, etc.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, ok well I had enough of his rude ways (ignoring us was his rude way)...... he had fallen asleep and I'll grant you most of us were tired but we did NOT fall asleep at the restaurant. Well, H knew I was not happy with how he was acting because before he fell asleep he was being grouchy....so sleep at least kept him less grouchy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I told his 'best friend' we needed to go. The entire group got up to leave. We all walked 1/2 way out, turned around and guess who was left at the table? His best friend is a good hearted very fun loving guy and just started cracking up. The rest followed suite and soon we were bustin' up. Of course H got up and was highly embaressed. Did he ever learn that lesson? It took many years and sometimes he still blames me for embaressing him but when I did try to wake him up, he just grumbled.....so I gave him what he wanted and he didn't like the results.

The point to my long story? Read the book and learn HOW to communicate with your H. If he doesn't want to communicate with you, talk to the wall. I have. The wall listens better sometimes, then I tell H that the wall treats me nicer. He gets the point and soon I see the H I fell in love with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Does he still get moody? Yea....looking for a pill to fix that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Call Steve and read His Needs/Her Needs.

L.

Hi FLT,

I don't write much these days, but I still read here and I remember your story.

I am pretty much in the same boat as you. The marriage is surviving, we aren't openly hostile, and we are both active in our children's lives. We are surviving, and there are worse things than that.

I've given up any hope that I will have an intimate and rewarding marriage with my wife, we didn't before my affair (5 years ago) and we don't now. We are badly matched, but sometimes biological hormones do that to a person. It just isn't going to happen, and you know what, (this took a lot of time and meditation for me to reach this decision) that is o.k.

I have resigned myself to stay put and watch my kids grow. When they are gone, I will likely follow and we both will likely breathe a sigh of relief. Neither of us want to break the kid's family, even though we don't really like being around each other that much.

Time does keep ticking and I am relieved by that, each tick is one second closer to a new beginning. I don't know if I am making the right choice by staying in a marriage that is this uncomfortable, but I do know that I am making the right choice by living in the house where my children reside.

I have become

Comfortably Numb.

Hi FLTH-

I know jsut how your feel. I think in my case it's becasue I am afraid to change- and I've said, "I'm going to change" so many times that BH doesnt' believe me anyways.

I read something in Good Housekeeping this month by Dr Phil- he was talking about setting New Years goals, and he was talking about making your marriage better. He said that he often hears, "well, I'll work on it if he'll work on it too." His comment was, "This is not a Standoff!! You can only work on people you can control- which is only YOURSELF. So do the work and changes will follow."

Of course, just like setting boundaries, if you make changes you have to be willing to accept the consequences. My problem is that I'm afraid of negative consequences, even if my changes are positive.

What is that quote?

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. As we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

- Marianne Williamson

This is what I'm afraid of.

CN, I don't want to become comfortably num. I HATE THAT SONG!!! In college, someone (my roommates boyfriend's friend) pushed himself on me after roommate let the two guys in and her boyfriend and her were in bed. and that album was playing. I SO HATE THAT ALBULM AND SONG!!!

besides, i really don't think i am wired to live that way.

and all i want to say to you is... i hope you somehow get the energy back to not be comfortable numb.

everyone else... great posts, so much i could say but i've been at work for over 14 hrs now and it is time to go home.

maybe my main problem is that I get so tired due to the demands of this job and the first thing i do is let that little voice wishper in my ear that my marriage is not recovering.

to answer some direct questions... no i don't feel like i have really forgiven myself nor feel forgiven. ok, i'll add in the word always, maybe sometimes i do.

of the 4 fears it would be #2, fear of external critisim, ore more exact, rejection.

Mrs Rob, that quote is very good and i'm going to have to read it a few more times when i'm not so stressed.

orchid, i did like your story!!

Hi FL,



When you hear that little voice, you need to just stop and focus on the facts.

1. Your H is committed to you and the M.
2. You are committed to the M.
3. You are NOT the person that you were during your As.

FL, I know that it's hard to forgive yourself and you probably believe that it's impossible for your H to forgive you... It is hard, but it can be done. I'm living proof that no matter how "bad" things got, that it is possible to forgive.

Get some rest and think about the positive things in your life... then take some time to decide how you really want to live. If you want to rebuild your M, then make up your mind to do so and develop a good game plan to show your H that you are not going to continue to be held down by the past. It's hard at first, but if you will focus on the present and stop dwelling in the past, I think you'll find that it will get easier for you to move forward.

Semper Fi,
RIF

RIF, all I can say to that is OORAH!! Gotta Love Marines.

Listen hon, I hear that you work hard and so does your H but you are tired due to the demands of HIS job? Sounds like your job is a bit demanding also, eh? Mine is. I spend sometimes more than 14 hours at work. I get to go in tomorrow to cover the phone system for our company. Hm.... if the calls aren't heavy I might get some work done..... Ok, back to your issue.... you may have to refocus.

Try focusing on:

1. Complimenting your H on how hard he is working. Find a benefit your family has enjoyed as a result (i.e. trip, new car, etc.)

2. Let him know like him you are also getting tired of those long hours at work. Ask to plan some time together, even if it is pulling weeds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

3. This one is the biggie: Move forward. Learn that your past mistakes, stay in the past....not t/b repeated. Ask your H for reassurance and like I recommended go read His Needs/Her Needs again. Call Steve.

I would not be posting to you like this if you were a WS even in the least bit. You are not, so I know you can appreciate and handle my post. Given that alone s/b a boost to keep you moving in the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Btw, RIF gave a great post. Read his post again.

Hugz,
L.

Orchid,

you are confusing me!!! did you read "this job" as "his job"??

I work full time at a company and generally put in at least 50+ hrs and a lot more from home too. it's just expected at this point. the company is a mess, we have had layoff after layoff, more work, less people. I am highly rated which i appreciate, but that means i'm always in high demand to "fix" something.

on my side of it.... no doubt, i am a work-aholic. I know too much of my self worth is tied up in this job. it's just that I am appreicated so much there and I get so much positive feedback. but it comes at a big cost. the stress is making me OLD!! plus I really would love to be able to become a teacher and put all my passion into something i believe i. I really don't care if cell phones work any better any more... (i do research and development of telecommunications)

i know more layoffs are coming in the new year, my company just merged with another company. I would love to ask my boss to put me on the list and lay me off, that would give us about 6 months of pay during which time i could work towards my teaching certificate. and i've been working with my brother to learn how to program "smart houses". in order to find another means to make up the difference between my salary now and a teacher's salary. DH and I talked about this plan and he is actually starting to say he might go along with this idea. at least he thinks i should look into the teaching certificate program again. (i tried to do the same thing about 3yrs ago, i was accepted into the program but had to back out due to projected finances).

my DH is a freelance photographer, corportate and editorial type of jobs. he has been doing that for about 14 yrs. When he is not on a job, he is at home. He honestly has gotten much better at helping out at the house because he is there so much more. He admits he used to have a problem with that ("woman's work"). His words, not mine. In fact just 2 days ago he commented about how his perspecitve has really changed about that. and i told him it was obvious that his actions showed that shift. No more coming home to find him napping on the couch just to have him wake up and say "Hi, what's for dinner".

ok, i read my words and I see resentment.

how can i have so many conflicting thoughts going on in my head???

from:

my past is unforgivable, i'm not good enough. we can never get past all this

to:

my life is so much harder than his, it's not fair. AND he does not care.

the latter is what i worked myself to as i wrote all this.

RIF, you post is good and if i could just not bounce all over the place I probably could focus on the right stuff.

ok, i'm home today, back to cleaning house... only 1 hr left before kids get home. I'm thrilled to be on vacation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FLTH - You could be my FWW writing this. She also has not really decided to work on the M.

I don't have an answer for you, but I can tell you what I talked about with my FWW on this topic.

First off, how do you get things done? Are you more of a goals/task oriented type person or a "experiential/empiracal" type person? What I mean is do you set a goal for yourself, then click of the things you have to do to achieve that, or would you rather just experiment and sense and feel your way along?

Either are completely acceptable. I know I am a goals/task type person and my wife is more of the later. I also think people who are more of the later have a much harder time getting on board with M recovery.

As an example, when I ask my FWW the question what do you want to do, she basically says, "I don't know, but I don't think I can/want to be married, and even if I did, I don't think I can/want to be married to you." I'm paraphrasing of course, but that's the general sentiment to what holds her back.

To me, this answer can't exist. How can one rule out a course of action, when they don't know what they want. To my FWW, this is basically saying, I already tried being married to you, I wasn't happy, so even though I don't know what I want, I need to experiment with something else.

Anyway, if you are goal type person, my guess is that what holds you back is you aren't clear on what you want, or what you want is not aligned with what your H wants. Either way, this can keep you from acting.

If you are the other type, my guess is that you don't really believe working on your M is in fact trying something different.

Just my two cents.

Hi FL,



So pick ONE thing and focus on it and let the other "stuff" slide for a while... Once you have that one area on the right track, pick another one and start working on it.

You don't have to "do it all" at the same time and you don't have to get it all done within one week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

rprynne,

at work, i am definitely extremely goal oriented and i can very easily see paths to resolve problems.

at home, i just feel confused all the time. i second guess everything and i feel like i'm always doing the wrong thing no matter how hard i try.

case in point... today, i spent a lot of time cleaning house. vacumn cleaner was not put away, nor was the hardwood floor cleaner prior to my son getting home. i knew i was pushing it, i should of just stopped earlier and put the cleaning tools away so i would be free to be with son. but instead i didn't. he comes home, i just stop working, he feels bad (slight cold), i sit with him on the couch to give him foot rub and some cuddles. daughter comes home, i welcome her home. DH comes home, vacumn and other cleaner is still out and he is not happy.

i know he hates it when i don't put that stuff away.

he literally told me, i might as well not even clean if i'm not going to put that stuff away.

hrs of cleaning negated.

he then says he thinks i purposely leave it out just cuz it bugs him.

i vacilate between being mad at myself for not managing time better and being mad at him for being so difficult to please.

on the line of apprecitation, when i told him i would have liked some... "you own a house, part of that is cleaning it".

so later, i tell him how i felt it was a DJ to say i purposely leave it out. he did apologize.

he also softened up quite a bit and things are ok now.

i have a question for you... why do you say i have not really decided to work on the marriage? i am curious as to what gives you that impression.

i do mean to work on it.

thoughout the rest of the afternoon, i have thought about my last post alot. and what i conclude is that i need to work on letting go of the past!!! and in need to have more appreciation for things he does right.

orchid, i guess that is exactly what you were saying too, you are right. if i look i can find negative, but if i look i can also find positive.

like today. ok, he had a not so nice initial response. but he responded to my comments, he softened up. he did apologize. he did give me extra hugs to make up. everything is ok now.

i have to stabalize myself, regardless of his behavior. like RIF says, i have to stay focused on the positives. we are both commited to each other and the marriage.

hey RIF, we were typing at the same time.

what you said... agreed.

i have the next 3 weeks off (for the most part, i'm having to do a little bit of support form home and i have to go in on thurs, blah..)

but for the most part, i will have more time to relax and focus on postives, somthing i clearly have a hard time doing when i am tired.

Good for you!!! Take it easy and pick one area to work on...

Hope you and your family have a great Christmas!

Semper Fi,
RIF

appreciating him.

you have a great Christmas too.

before going to bed last night, i thanked DH for doing so much of the Christmas present shopping. We talked about what we wanted to get people but he did the majority of the leg work, including taking the kids to pick out their own clothing. No way I would be ready for Christmas had it not been for him.

(I am working on the area of appreciating him more!)

FL,

I'm sorry my name is such a trigger for you. I don't really like feeling like my nickname, but it does fit how I feel.

I can relate to your story and we are on similar timelines in this recovery (or whatever it is) business. It is sometimes, oh I don't know, validating to know that there are others that are out there that have been trying to restablish intimacy in the marriage and are not quite there yet. I makes me feel less of a failure to know that this isn't that easy for others also.

Marriage is hard. It is much harder when there are children involved. It seems that one must sacrifice the family (divorce) or sacrifice the self (living in a painful and stiffling marriage) . . . I would perfer the option of having a fulfilling mariage, but that just isn't in the cards for me.

Take care and I hope you come to resolution about your situation.

I will leave you be now.