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Oh Yes... Bramblerose.. One of the wisest women that I have met on this Board..who has helped me immensely... And she came back out after a long absence to talk to Sis..and in talking to Sis she talks to me and others here... WHAT A BLESSING FOR YOU, SIS...FOR US... Listen to BR..one of my own mentors... She is one of whom I want to be like when I grow up... I want to be like PEP, too..BTW... and ARK and Mel...I could go on and on... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ETA: But as BR and LA would have me to say..I AM HAPPY TO BE ME!!
Last edited by mimi1254; 02/11/07 09:12 PM.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I see his PAIN about this at least once a week if not DAILY at times.. Mimi, I don't mean to thread jack, but this statement stood out to me. I am surprised you still see pain this often with your H 3 1/2 yrs into recovery? Lady
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First, before I forget I have a slight threadjack. A couple of pages ago Sis mentioned trying out Marsh's minestrone recipe. Where can I find that recipe? I have been searching for a good minestrone recipe since New Years. My FWH and I went to Pizza Uno in Chicago at the beginning of January and he had the minestrone and it was absolutely THE BEST. So I have been trying different ones.
Ok, threadjack over.
Now, I have been reading this latest discussion and am pretty much on the same page as Mimi. I see both points and agree with aspects from both. I'm definately not comfortable with the use of the word betrayal when I'm not the one that committed adultery. However, I definately did not uphold all of my vows. I did not cherish my H. Resentment took over our M starting on our wedding night.
With each new "slight" the resentment grew between us. I actually got to the point that I felt superior to H and thought that noone else would put up with his [censored] so I felt safe in withdrawing from him physically.
We both had some major flaws in our M and neither of us was willing to be the first to give more than the other. We had endless, heated, emotional talks about the issues between us. He was verbally abusive to me and I pretty much withheld sex. When I did engage in SF I made sure he knew it was begrudgingly. There were many nights he cried himself to sleep b/c he felt so unloved. There were many days that I cried for the way he talked to me. But again, we wouldn't budge. It was a game of which came first. Did he treat me badly b/c I didn't give him SF or did I withhold SF b/c he treated me badly?
This led to affair #1 which was just supposed to be a sex only A. Noone would find out noone would get hurt. And he was right on the noone would find out and on the surface noone was hurt. But he knew and his guilt grew for the next 5 years. So his anger grew, his fear grew and the chasm between us grew. So, OW #2 came along and "accepted" him despite his flaws (gag!!!!) She knew about Affair #1 and she knew he would never do that to her, etc..... Ofcourse we all know the story after that.
Even after DDay I still felt superior. I didn't get it. I just thought my FWH was an [censored] that couldn't keep it in his pants. I didn't get my role in the demise of our M.
I'M IN NO WAY SAYING THIS GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN A!!!! It did not. But, what gave me the right to completely withdraw from my H? We were both at fault for THE DEMISE OF OUR M. He is at fault for the A. Those are two separate issues here. LilSis has to recognize what made their marriage vulnerable to an A to begin with. This is a valuable tool in plan A. To make the needed changes she has to know what to change. This isn't just for her current M. Even if this M doesn't work out she still needs to know how to Affair proof her M. Isn't that the title of the book. His Needs Her Needs: How to Affair Proof Your Marriage.
My FWH made a comment right after d-day that cut me to the core and I didn't understand it at first. Once I did, it was invaluable. He told me very vehemently "What did you ever do for me as a wife besides cook and clean?" I thought to myself, isn't that what I was supposed to do? There was so much more I hadn't been doing. He was exactly right, fog speak and all. Yes, I could have said the same thing about him but you know what, this was about me. I couldn't change him, I could only change me and hope he would follow. I changed, and so far he has followed. If only one of us would have done that 8 years ago...
No, his decision was not good, he will be the first to tell you that. He does not feel entitled b/c I have admitted my mistakes. I just asked him and he said it too, they are two separate issues. He did not make a good choice and in no way did my failings in our M give him the right to have an A.
Ok, dooty calls (LOL). I have to go change the litter box.
None are more unjust in their judgments of others than those who have a high opinion of themselves.
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Oh, man. I go to my mom’s for birthday dinner and I come back to this… Do I dare venture into THIS minefield??? I guess I have to, since I sort of started it…and it’s “my” thread. On goes the armor... I think there are valid points on both sides. So I’m on the fence. May I eat cake, too? (Oh…I already did. It had candles, and heath bars crumbled on top. Yum. Mom's a great cook.) Keep in mind that I am reading all of this through the lens of MY EXPERIENCE. Other BSs experiences are VASTLY different than mine, and many are similar. But in my case, there was no abuse, no addictions, no overt neglect…pretty average. I was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting WH’s needs. WH was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting my needs. Many, many, many couples have these same issues. Many couples have MUCH, MUCH worse problems in their relationships and challenges in their lives (sick children, job loss, etc.). AND THEY DON’T COMMIT ADULTERY. My WH DID. So, I have to agree with noodle here… At the molecular level it is nothing more or less than a maturity crisis...before he was ever in the fog...before he was addicted a situation presented itself that required him to be mature, integral, and decisive. WH made a CHOICE to betray me, the boys, his family, himself, his morals, his integrity. He is an ADULT, with free will, and he chose to get his needs met by committing adultery INSTEAD of seeking counseling, etc. And I do not see it as self-righteous to say this. The fact that he made a totally selfish CHOICE is not mere opinion. It is observable. It is fact. The fact that he would make this choice--when so many other married people do NOT--speaks to something ELSE that was going on inside of WH. Maybe maturity, maybe job dissatisfaction, maybe insecurity...but I do not think it fair to place the entire burden of one person's selfish choice on the plate of the person most victimized by that choice. THAT SAID…I am completely willing to LEARN ABOUT and ADDRESS those issues in ME that led to mutual dissatisfaction in our marriage. Anyone who has read my thread would agree…I hope!! I have been very open to changing MY perceptions of men, of marriage, of emotional needs, how to meet them, etc. Perhaps some BS’s are not willing to embark on this journey of self-discovery….and I can see why, ‘cause it ain’t pretty. That’s where I think THIS statement comes in: I have a huge problem with the constant use of "Fog" to allow BSes to exonerate the BS's contributions to the downfall of the marriage and disrespect the WS. Personally, I don’t believe I have never used fog to exonerate myself…I readily acknowledge that I made mistakes. I am working through MB in HOPE of GETTING AN OPPORTUNITY to try to rectify those mistakes, an opportunity that is denied because of the on-going A. I have never denied that I share culpability for problems in our marriage…but they were NOT deal-breakers, not when the “deal” were vows made to God. About the perception of/feelings of BETRAYAL: I will NOT accept WH’s fog-bound PERCEPTION that I “betrayed” him as Truth. Disappointed, yes. Failed to meet expectations, yes. But I will not take ownership of “betrayed.” That word implies deliberate and intentional to me. He may PERCIEVE it as a betrayal NOW…but that’s fog-speak. If I can LEARN from it, I will do so. But I refuse to internalize it. See the difference, from my POV? He feels that LilSis did NOT keep her promise, and I am willing to bet that his hurt and pain at this broken promise fed his growing sense of entitlement. It is a powerful insight to WHY he was vulnerable to having an affair. Again, looking back…I don’t buy that WH felt that I didn’t keep my promise UNTIL the A made it very convenient for him to do so. I SINCERELY believe that pre-A, he would have NEVER stated that I didn’t “live up to my vows.” Honestly, I think the suggestion of such would have horrified him. Again…I think that’s fog-speak. And it makes a very nice, neat little justification. It may have fed his entitlement, and if I can learn from that statement, GREAT! But I don't ACCEPT it as truth...make sense? I agree with both of these statements: Her husband is telling her how he was hurt and she needs to "get" that - just as he will need to "get" the pain he caused her. Yep. I need to OWN what I did to contribute to the breakdown in our marriage, and work to address those issues. I am willing to do that, and this is what I am attempting to demonstrate in Plan A. He didn't have an affair because he was hurt. To me, his HURT does not in any way, shape or form justify his CHOICE to respond (or react?) in the way that he did. We are ALL hurt in different ways. But we CHOOSE how to respond and how to react to pain. We may flee, we may fight, we may seek help, we may resign ourselves to being victims. Again…it is HOW WH CHOSE TO RESPOND to the hurt that is at issue. So the hurt is PART of the reason…but it can’t be the WHOLE reason, otherwise EVERY MARRIED PERSON in the world would be unfaithful. What I WILL CONCEDE is that hurt created a HUGE VULNERABILITY. But when push came to shove…he made a conscious choice. We talk a lot about respect…but there are some choices that can and should be respected, and others that should never be respected. The choice to cheat should never be respected. It can be examined, it can be learned from, but the person who chooses it should not be exempted AT ALL because he/she was hurt. The very WRONG choice to commit adultery is the total responsibility of the WS. The hurt of not having needs met (disappointed) vs. the hurt of being betrayed simply cannot be equated. And if the WS PERCIEVES that his/her hurt over being disappointed CAN BE EQUATED to the pain of betrayal, I’d turn on the low beams, because the fog’s still thick. Boy...I hope none of that sounds self-righteous. I'll post and then read it again with my mimi glasses on! Try to catch myself this time!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Okay...I spent an hour typing the above with breaks for tucking in kids, laundry, etc. I should have just kept my mouth shut, because I sound so cold regarding my WH!! I was speaking sort of analytically...not from the heart, if you know what I mean.
I want to add that what I have learned about ME through my changes makes me that much more EAGER to learn about WH. I want to find out what makes him tick as much as I know now about what makes me tick.
Although I can never respect his CHOICE to have an A, I CAN respect HIM. That choice does not define him in my eyes. It does, however, make me very aware that there are aspects of him as a person that I didn't know about. And guess what? I want to learn about those! How intersting and exciting!!
I loved him pre-A. I loved him during the A. I love him now. I really want to know the REAL WH, because I bet I would love him even more, warts and all. That's what I'm counting on, actually, otherwise I'd just be a maschocist. (I don't have any idea how to spell that)
BTW: NO PHONE CALLS TODAY, BUT HE DID SEND A FUNNY EMAIL ABOUT A CAT...REMEMBER, RT HATES CATS.
I'M STILL WAITING TO LISTEN...MY EARS ARE OPEN...ALL I HEAR IS CRICKETS FROM THE ILS HOUSE...
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lilsis
you seem like a very strong and very wise person
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Oh, man. I go to my mom’s for birthday dinner and I come back to this…
Do I dare venture into THIS minefield??? I guess I have to, since I sort of started it…and it’s “my” thread. On goes the armor...
I think there are valid points on both sides. So I’m on the fence. May I eat cake, too? (Oh…I already did. It had candles, and heath bars crumbled on top. Yum. Mom's a great cook.)
Keep in mind that I am reading all of this through the lens of MY EXPERIENCE. Other BSs experiences are VASTLY different than mine, and many are similar. But in my case, there was no abuse, no addictions, no overt neglect…pretty average. I was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting WH’s needs. WH was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting my needs.
Many, many, many couples have these same issues. Many couples have MUCH, MUCH worse problems in their relationships and challenges in their lives (sick children, job loss, etc.). AND THEY DON’T COMMIT ADULTERY. My WH DID. So, I have to agree with noodle here… And this is the part I agree with Noodle too. In fact I do still have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that FWH chose to have an A and I did not. It never even crossed my mind and I never allowed myself to be vulnerable to it either, no matter how much he hurt me. I guess that's why I never suspected the first A and had a hard time believing the 2nd A. (I didn't find out about A#1 until after reconciliation). And I still wonder, what happens next time he's discontent? Is that how he'll choose to handle it again?
None are more unjust in their judgments of others than those who have a high opinion of themselves.
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BTW: NO PHONE CALLS TODAY, BUT HE DID SEND A FUNNY EMAIL ABOUT A CAT...REMEMBER, RT HATES CATS.
I'M STILL WAITING TO LISTEN...MY EARS ARE OPEN...ALL I HEAR IS CRICKETS FROM THE ILS HOUSE... THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!! When was the last time he sent you a joke through email? This is one of the first ways my FWH started reconnecting with me!!!!!!! I am so thrilled for you right now I wish I could hug you!!!!!!!!! And I also want to address something else you posted a little while ago. I've noticed you prefacing your "vent" posts and then later stating that this is where you are trying to come to vent instead of doing it on H. That is exactly what this board is for. That's what we are all here for. I think it's good to preface just to let us know you are venting but please don't feel like you can't come here to vent. There was one day I just went on my post and cussed out my FWH like I was actually talking to him b/c if I didn't get it out I was going to explode and it wasn't going to be pretty. Yes we all experienced the anger during plan A. It's normal. Ok, back to hugging you b/c this is such a huge step in my opinion that he emailed you a joke. Especially about something RT hates. Awesome, awesome, awesome!!!
None are more unjust in their judgments of others than those who have a high opinion of themselves.
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Bump for InADaze. OT: Knowing that Lilsis enjoys soup...
Here's a really great recipe for Minestrone Soup that I just tried:
3 tablespoons olive oil
1 cup minced white onions (about 1 small onion)
1/2 cup chopped zucchini
1/2 cup frozen cut italian green beans
1/4 cup minced celery (about 1/2 stalk)
4 teaspoons minced garlic (about 4 cloves)
4 cups vegetable broth
2 (15 ounce) cans red kidney beans, drained
2 (15 ounce) cans small white beans or great northern beans, drained
1 (14 ounce) can diced tomatoes
1/2 cup carrots, julienned or shredded
2 tablespoons minced fresh parsley
1 1/2 teaspoons dried oregano
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 teaspoon ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon dried basil
1/4 teaspoon dried thyme
3 cups hot water
4 cups fresh baby spinach
1/2 cup small shell pasta
1)Heat three tablespoons of olive oil over medium heat in a large soup pot.
2)Saute onion, celery, garlic, green beans, and zucchini in the oil for 5 minutes or until onions begin to turn translucent.
3)Add vegetable broth to pot, plus diced tomatoes, beans, carrot, hot water, and spices.
4)Bring soup to a boil, then reduce heat and allow to simmer for 20 minutes.
5)Add spinach leaves and pasta and cook for an additional 20 minutes or until desired consistency.
Makes about eight 1 1/2 cup servings.
It was REALLY great!
~ Marsh Lilsis, Tell him this... I loved him pre-A. I loved him during the A. I love him now. I really want to know the REAL WH, because I bet I would love him even more, warts and all. That's what I'm counting on, actually, otherwise I'd just be a maschocist. (I don't have any idea how to spell that) ~ Marsh
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Thanks Marsh, I will try it on my next menu. (I make a two week menu and shop for all the groceries at one time, since I just did that today I will have to wait for two weeks). By the way, when you do this, it really saves you alot on your grocery bill. Cuts down on all those quick but pricey trips to the store.
None are more unjust in their judgments of others than those who have a high opinion of themselves.
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Hey LilSis ~ nothing I posted today was intended as a criticism of you, and I hope you didn't read it that way.
I think you are doing fine and I don't disagree with your response. I'll take my discussion with noodle over to Pep's thread so it doesn't distract! :;
Just one point tho, I was NOT suggesting that his hurt should be equated to your hurt. Not even close. My point is that both of you have to learn to "get" what your actions did to the other. You have less to 'get' than he does, but you still have to 'get it'. He can't possibly get what is going on with you right now, not while fogged. But you can work on understanding what led to the point where he made a choice to have an affair, and you can take that insight into Plan A.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Thanks for the hugs, Daze! Thanks for being thrilled, and thanks for letting me vent (no one actually has to read those, BTW, I almost wish they wouldn't I sound so crabby...)
Yeah...I am pleased that he emailed something...anything! The cat thing was definately something that RT would NOT find humorous or engaging.
BTW, Daze, I printed out your story and it is next to my bed with some of the other "inspirational" stories I've collected here that I refer to when I need a kick in the rear or to be reminded what a long, long road this is. So thank you for keeping me company during those times!
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Hey LilSis ~ nothing I posted today was intended as a criticism of you, and I hope you didn't read it that way. No, I really didn't...I felt you were speaking more generally...I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something or you were trying to tell me something else... I think you are doing fine and I don't disagree with your response. I'll take my discussion with noodle over to Pep's thread so it doesn't distract! :; Yeah...I didn't see the other thread until AFTER I spent an hour formulating a response... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My point is that both of you have to learn to "get" what your actions did to the other. You have less to 'get' than he does, but you still have to 'get it'. He can't possibly get what is going on with you right now, not while fogged. But you can work on understanding what led to the point where he made a choice to have an affair, and you can take that insight into Plan A. ...and with the wonderful help from my MB coaches and cheerleaders, I hope to do--and am making great strides in doing--just that! I have learned SOOOO much, and am beginning to put it into practice. And I hope to learn more by LISTENING, LISTENING, LISTENING, too... (nothing to hear at the moment, but I'm eagerly awaiting something, anything..) Thanks, BR! I'll check in on the other thread to watch the debate continue...
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. But in my case, there was no abuse, no addictions, no overt neglect…pretty average. I was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting WH’s needs. WH was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting my needs. Are you guys saying that it is the NATURE OF MARRIAGE..to not meet each others needs..are you saying that defines what a NORMAL COUPLE IS...That's pretty sad.... Many, many, many couples have these same issues. Many couples have MUCH, MUCH worse problems in their relationships and challenges in their lives (sick children, job loss, etc.). AND THEY DON’T COMMIT ADULTERY. My WH DID. So, I have to agree with noodle here… How do you know this for sure? What if most couples with WORSE PROBLEMS DO COMMIT ADULTERY???? I think ADULTERY occurs far more often than ASSUMED. Boy...I hope none of that sounds self-righteous. I'm most concerned that this THINKING may close you off to HEARING HIM and NOW DURING THIS PARTICULAR PHASE OF PLAN A..he needs to BE HEARD. Yes, he remains WAYWARD and Yes muxh of what he is saying is NOT THE TRUTH..you still have to evidence your willingness to LISTEN... A HUGE PART of moving into RECOVERY..as LG is saying to you..is for him to be SAFE to OPEN UP TO YOU about WHAT HE FEELS NOW..however, FOGGY..however, ALIEN and CRAZY..he may sound... You have to be able to withstand some OUCHES...SOME STABS from HIM and then to be able to bounce back... In order to return home..part of the YELLOW BRICK ROAD...the bread crumbs... MUST INCLUDE THE MESSAGE..that "YOU WILL BE SAFE WITH ME..I will listen to you..I will hear you..I CAN FORGIVE YOU.. AS YOU WORK YOURSELF OUT OF THE FOG.... I remember folks here telling me to BE PREPARED for RECOVERY..because your WH will come back to you a MESS..he will need help in HEALING..and this was definitely TRUE for us...
Last edited by mimi1254; 02/11/07 11:22 PM.
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. But in my case, there was no abuse, no addictions, no overt neglectÉpretty average. I was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting WHÕs needs. WH was not perfect, and did a crappy job of meeting my needs. Are you guys saying that it is the NATURE OF MARRIAGE..to not meet each others needs..are you saying that defines what a NORMAL COUPLE IS...That's pretty sad.... Not at all, I'm saying that how we related to one another WAS sad...that's why we ended up where we are now...both of us: he in an A, me on MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> How do you know this for sure? What if most couples with WORSE PROBLEMS DO COMMIT ADULTERY????
I think ADULTERY occurs far more often than ASSUMED. THAT'S sad. And you are right...I'm sure. There are probably many married people that I would be shocked to find out committed adultery. But I don't know ANYONE who has experienced what I am experiencing...except for people here on this board...and my best friend (and ours happened at the exact same time). I mean the whole "soulmate" crap, leaving kids, no counseling, alienating family... I'm most concerned that this THINKING may close you off to HEARING HIM and NOW DURING THIS PARTICULAR PHASE OF PLAN A..he needs to BE HEARD. Yes, he remains WAYWARD and Yes muxh of what he is saying is NOT THE TRUTH..you still have to evidence your willingness to LISTEN... Did you see my second post? Where I say that I want to get to know the REAL WH? Getting to know the real WH involves listening...absolutely. He's just not saying anything RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT, so it gives me all kinds of time to ruminate and fuss over every foggy thing that has come out of his mouth. But this is the Truth: I loved him pre-A. I loved him during the A. I love him now. I really want to know the REAL WH, because I bet I would love him even more, warts and all. That's what I'm counting on, actually, otherwise I'd just be a maschocist. (I don't have any idea how to spell that) And I think I've done a fair job of leaving bread crumbs...Yesterday I was very, very clear: THIS is what I understand about how I failed our marriage and THIS is the behavior that I want to change because I have changed as a person. I've communicated a number of ways that I'm open to forgiveness, that I want to be just US, that we are a family. I'm just waiting to hear him...I'd LOVE to hear him...I mean REALLY listen. And I absolutely will...but I'm backing off now, remember? Letting him take the lead? HONESTLY...Sometimes I get confused...nudge, back off, listen, admire, let him take the lead, speak your truth, show him he's needed... Yikes!! What's a girl to do? I'm getting dizzy.
Last edited by LilSis; 02/11/07 11:42 PM.
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(((Sis))) You are doing GREAT!!! Remember.... Mimi..the PERFECTIONISTIC, DRIVEBY QUEEN and PLAN B FAILURE...and don't forget..CONFLICT AVOIDER who needs to EMBRACE CONFLICT and not FIGHT OR FLIGHT..pretty much sums up SOME of my MBers' ISSUES.... Ooops and I forgot SELF-RIGHTEOUS... Who am I to point fingers??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by mimi1254; 02/11/07 11:52 PM.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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But she points very cute fingers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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LilSis...
What you are being told about your WH having to feel safe to share with you is the truth...Mr. W listened to endless fog babble and crap from me...horrible, horrible things...I dealt more blows to his self esteem than one would think possible...a lesser man would not have been left standing...But there he stood...hand outreached...loving me anyway...and he listened and listened and listened some more...he never yelled at me or called me names...I felt totally safe to share all with him because of that...He saw my humanity and seemed to understand how this had happened...He never told me things like "I would NEVER have done that"...He was never self righteous towards me...He even let me cry about OM to him-I don't know how he did that, I'm not sure that I could have done the same...Today I stand in awe of him much of the time because of that and other things...I admire him...I love him very much...He saved our family from me...and he loved me even though...that is so powerful to me...it takes a rare combination of guts and grace to do that...
Sure, we are not perfect and we continue to work through issues, but we WILL make it and much of the credit goes to him for that...
I see that same combination of guts and grace in you too...You can do this...
Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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actually the affair is always the fault of the WS....100% of the time.
The state of the M before an affair is both parties faults... but the choice to screw around is all on the WS.
And while some M have some issues that can leave it vulnerable to an A... some A's have NOTHING to do with needs not being met at home... some people just have no character and integrity and will jump on anyhting they can... no matter the state of their marriage.
How about we take this off of Lilsis's thread and move it over to yours. I have responded over there.
I would offer a suggestion though... try not to come here knowing everything... the people here have been through a lot and have a lot to offer. Noodle was not offering babble.
Welcome to MB and hopefully you can find some help here.... for you or your friend.
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