"Because I think her H is the kind of guy who would live with a miserable choice just because it was made for him -- just like he lives with a career he hates. And I think that RT is more than happy to force a choice for him, and that she is very aware of this chink and has been exploiting it to it's fullest."




Yes, yes, yes. I agree w/ this wholeheartedly. I'm not sure what you know about temperaments/personality types, but your H sounds like a Phlegmatic...mine too.

Right now, RT is feeding him his lines and telling him exactly what he needs to do. And for a Phlegmatic, it just comes natural to let someone else take the lead. And...it sounds like he did that with you for years too. Let you take the lead that is. Until someone else came along and told him not to. Make sense?

MEDC:



This is the way I see it. IF and I say IF, not wanting to be judgemental and SIS knows her H best, IF her H is like my H any statement such as this that I would make threw my WH STRAIGHT BACK INTO THE ARMS OF THE OW....

Because..this was the OLD DEMANDING, B..WORD, FIGHTING, IN CHARGE, IT'S GOT TO BE MY WAY OR NO WAY, I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS ME...

For me, PLAN A was about CHANGING from this...so that my H did not feel CHALLENGED or ORDERED ABOUT BY ME..This is the same dynamic that it has seemed that Sis' H has...

He is ATTRACTED, IMO, by the new Sis that is MORE PASSIVE and NEEDS and RECEIVES his HELP...

He is INSECURE...

Ami,

Of course, Sis knows her H best..but as she has portrayed him here and as he has demonstrated even today..HE NOW WANTS TO BE IN CHARGE..HE WANTS TO BE THE MAN..which is NORMAL AND EXPECTED for a MAN, IMO....

I think RT is giving him lots and lots of ADMIRATION..telling him that he's the MAN.."I chose you OVER A LAWYER..even though you are a cop...You have HELPED ME so much in dealing with my crummy marriage, etc....

Yes, he has had issues with self-esteem and RT has been GAMING in BUILDING HIM UP...



IMO, it is clear that's WHAT HE LOVES.....He liked even HUGGING HER when she didn't ask...

HE TOOK CHARGE TODAY..every step of the way..SHE LET HIM and HE LOVED, LOVED, LOVED IT....

He demanded: "COME INTO THE HOUSE....

IMO, Sis needs to continue to be THE LIGHTHOUSE...a SHINING BEACON..and he will come home...

I think it will take him missing that during PLAN B...

But she needs to END PLAN A on a POSITIVE NOTE...not with a DEMAND or a PUSH but with continued NUDGING...

We'll see what LG says...

Like Pep said, sometimes that raw honesty and emotion need to show.
He needs to see that you're hurting. That this is NOT ok.

RT is trying to convince him that divorce is something that happens all the time, and that everybody is fine after an adjustment.

Your pain shows him how false that justification is.

I think you will see a very genuine display of caring from him and the boys tonight. I think him seeing you so sad will prompt him to return your kindness. I think you will see something tonight. When does he get off work?

Also, I think the timing is just right to ask for time with him. Maybe to seduce him (your call). Tomorrow if you are spending time together to do tires, maybe you can talk/have lunch/add romance...

Your message has to get to him "we can fix this".
"there is a way"

Then in preparation for Plan B, he needs to be left with:
we will not be friends after divorce.
it will not be amicable or friendly.
another man will (eventually) raise his sons.

Here is what you need to exploit Lilsis...here are my thoughts while I was "on-the-fence":

FWS thinking: BS will find someone else (yikes!). That person will be a better person than I am. The kids will like that person. They will be happy. They will become a good family unit, and I will be left out. Everyone will be happy for BS to have found a way better person than me. I will have to pick up my kids knowing that BS's new spouse is better than me.

Meanwhile, I will be with OP. Things are not so great. We have issues with my kids not liking OP, and OP's kids not liking me. We are not "blessed", everything we've done is so wrong. I can't bring OP around my family...nobody is "happy" for us.

But how do I overcome what I've done. I've ruined everything. I can't go back.

Sorry. I disagree. I don't think he liked her TAKING THE LEAD and I think RT has let him do that...

NOW, I think RT is beginning to show her true self and is becoming DEMANDING...and CONTROLLING...WH does not like that..SOOOOO.....Sis is MORE ATTRACTIVE particularly since she allows him to FEEL GOOD about actually TAKING CARE OF HIS REAL FAMILY...

Mimi... I see your points and respect them... even when I do not agree 100%. Remember that LG, Me or your H is not her H. Only Lilsis can make the best call here based on his actions. I have seen people involved in affairs that remind me greatly if Lilsis's H and they never moved until pushed to do so.... until their ability to have both was removed. LG has one perspective...you have yours...others have theirs...it is good for Lilsis to be able to digest things as they are discussed. That you and I see things differently is a good thing IMO... it gives Lilsis different perspectives...because if she is only afforded one and it truns out to not work... well, there will be nowhere left to turn.
You as well as the others here are offering her a great service.

I agree 100% with Lexx..

Including this:



I WAS THINKING THIS, TOO..and didn't say it...

sometimes i think we are all saying basically the same thing.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

i agree he liked being able to take charge and be the man...this is what he lives for.
but he NEEDs to feel safe to do so. LS has been making it safer for him.
that is how he got back on the fence.

my greatest concern is that he starts to feel TOO comfortable being a cake eater.
unfortuately, cake eating somehow gave my H an air of confidence that was very attractive on the outside....he felt good about himself....he thought he could get away w/ more.

also...for what it's worth...
my H was very sensitive to being manipulated by women. He was a sucker at times....but,he would get very angry when he realized it. he liked to be told that he was needed and how much i was attracted to him......but if i poured on too much sugar........he turned cold and distant.

TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU, MEDC... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think it's a perfect time for her to make another appointment with Steve...

This was MAJOR STUFF today.

Sis, if you're listening, Steve might be able to help you REEL HIM ON IN..even before PLAN B....I don't know, though..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I agree that these things need to be a reality for the WH. I think the idea of her having another man in her life would devastate him. I do NOT see him letting this happen.

I see statement like

Look, I want you to know that my feelings for you are real and the changes I have made are forever. But it is important for you to know that there is an end to this road in sight. You can't expect to have the option to return to your family always on the table... I am only so strong and can only take so much. I want you to think very seriously about how you want your life to go. I think it would be best for you to be here with your wife and your family... building a marriage that is wonderful for all of us. I want to have all the promise that our life has to offer...I do not want to get to the point where I have reached a point of no return because of your actions. For a moment... please put yourself in my shoes and wonder what it would be like to sit back and watch me with another man while all you want to do is work on a better marriage. I am telling you again... we can get past this. My love for you is strong enough to do that for us. But please... don't push this much further.

having a good impact. It's just off the top of my head... but I think it would really help.

LilSis:

Happy Birthday.

You may have recieved the best present ever today.

Some pushing elsewhere (friend in white car) resulted in the H showing up.

And not doing whatever else needed to be done to be there.

The conflict is raw and on the surface for WH.

I do not think that your H is always taking the path of least resistance.

WE are the captives of our decisions.

And he made a choice for RT 8-10 months ago. Because that was the choice of least resistance, AT THAT TIME.

How he got to that choice at that time, was based on the 2 years of bad decisions prior to that.

We have discussed the reasonings of Waywards here already on this thread, leave it for now.

He no longer has a path of least resistance. LS with her sterling Plan A has removed that. One day, one interaction, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 eight roses, one bowl of soup, etc. You have destroyed that path.

And you have been destroying it for 2 months. Since you started Plan A.

The path of least resistance does lie with RT, now.

Just like it did with Mimi's WH, MEDC's WGF and me.

Doing the right thing is hard. It was easy to chose RT before LS learned of plan A. Because, to the WH, it seemed the right thing to do.

Not anymore.

Your H wants to do the right thing. And he KNOWs that the right thing is returning to his family, his home and LS.

I'm not interested in turning this around on a dime. Because we can not control that dime. This does create more opportunities for hurt on LS part, but it lays the groundwork for success.

Plan B? At rose 12. Six more weeks. IL's return. The promise he made to you, that ended in 84 roses...

Darn this is hard. But it is the right think to do.

TM: Thank you for moving the car, and helping with the tires tommorrow. Lunch at the restaurant? Old times sake, afterward? I'll let you buy....

Haven't caught up yet.. but

LilSis,
I wanted to give you this bday card. Just click the link.

Birthday Card waiting for you at Flavia

LS,

I think that it is time to check back with SH. I'm with MEDC on this one. You plan A has worked to perfection with the sole exception of actually ending the A. He is REALLY cake-eating right now. Your WH is now hooked on the ENs that you meet for him, and he will not be able to get these met by RT. Sure, he will fall back over the fence once you go to plan B, but he will try to hop back and forth between yards. If you go very dark, he will start wondering what he is missing on the other side. I think you are very close to being ready for plan B. I don't think that your WH will get off the fence without it, but once you do, I see the A ending fairly quickly (~3 months) afterwards.

I only have a few minutes before I have to leave again...just spent a half hour catching up on all the posts. Couple of quick observations:

Although I didn't understand your point at first, MEDC, your last post, the one with the suggested wording of a "pre-plan B" thing...resonated a bit. I think there's potential to give him the "out," make it clear one more time. Maybe too hard on the heels of last week's explosion, though.

On the other hand...as you've all said, I know my WH best. To be very clear: I think he would respond to an ultimatum VERY poorly. That would be CHARACTERISTIC OLD LilSis...and all my hard work demonstrating changes for the past two months would be out the window.

In that regard, mimi's 100% correct. I was always in charge, always setting the tone, always directing traffic. He was passive, agreeable...now I see, insecure as well. Clearly, that was NOT what he wanted. RT is nothing if not passive and agreeable...so WH got to set the pace, set the tone. After all, RT was "just kidding" when she said she had the power.

However, MEDC's suggested statement is NOT an ultimatum...and it could be worded in a way that emphasizes my respect for him, admiration, etc. Some of it would have to be toned down even further...I don't know. I'm just a bit at a loss for how to rebound from the drama this morning.

I spoke briefly to MIL while driving to my meeting. I told her my only birthday wish was for WH to come to his senses and KNOW that my changes are REAL and come home. She said that was her only wish too. I told her to make sure she told WH that when he calls to wish her happy birthday. She promised that she would.

Driving home from my meeting, I had to drive past the coffee shop. RT is working...and there was a cruiser out front. Could be another cop...but still. Why today of all days. It is right around the corner for goodness sake.

Sis, I elected to stay off your thread for a while because what seemed obvious to me did not seem to resonate with others until today.

I had been trying to tell you how being the damsel is an effective tool and coupled with the fact that RT no longer has her damsel issues (divorcing horrible H, crazy BS attacking her) to play upon anymore makes it even better.

You don’t want to seem “needy”, just seem to need him, which is working. If you go back and review all 190+ pages, you will see what worked and what was neutral and what had the opposite effect to your goal.

Being a damsel is a manipulation, but so is everything we do in life. It can manipulate to the good or bad. Even meeting En’s is a positive manipulation.

MEDC again is correct in that your WH is NOT just like any other H, nor is LS just like any one else here. Put these two unique people together, and you are even less like any other marriage. MEDC’s idea of stating the facts about the end of the road issues is on target as well.

Go back and read your journal of discovery here and list what has and has not worked during your Plan A. I think you will see a definite pattern emerge. Time is of the essence and you have just a few short weeks to capitalize on what you have going in your favor.

Also the part about another man stepping into WH’s shoes in every aspect of his former life is a very important piece in all of this. No matter what, that thought should make him want to double over and if it does not bother him you know what to do.

Happy Birthday.

Well. Thank goodness those tires are going to get replaced. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IMO, Mimi is oh-so-right. The damsel got attacked by the evil ice chunks and the knight in the shining bulletproof vest showed up post-haste!!! YAY!

He's not yet enough on the fence to fall off and hit the right side, but he's getting there, isn't he? LilSis, you are doing great! Plan A hurts. That's what it does with all this rollercoaster stuff. When you go to Plan B, you can tend your wounds.

I also agree with MEDC (et. al) that he will take the path of least resistance because that's what waywards do, but I don't think that you are going to have to give him anything resembling an ultimatum. For some strange reason, it seems that everything is going to come together in April and do just that for you. His family is coming home and he has to find a place to live. IMO, That's when the rubber is really going to hit the road, and he is going to be crawling through hoops to insure that there's not a black skid mark all the way across his back.

His parents will be angry with him and RT will be LBing her butt off. He will need a place to live and the pressure during that time is going to be immense. Everybody else is going to be quarreling and nattering and running around like chickens with their heads cut off, and LisSis will be standing there, totally innocent of causing any of this madness. Just standing there shining her light! Being the path of least resistance and redemption.

Until her Plan B knocks him flat, that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

LilSis, (HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!) Please, please, please try to Plan A until this time if you can stand it. It just seems that everything is going to come undone for him sometime in April, and Plan B might have a chance to have maximum impact.

Can you call Dr H and see what he thinks? It just seems very important right now.

<Singing>
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to LilSis,
Happy Birthday to you.

Does anyone think that dropping off a copy of SAA to him would be of any help at this point...so he can see that it is possible to survive an affair and still save his marriage and have it actually better than if he continues on the path toward DV and a doomed life with RT?....somehow get through to him that he can avoid the trainwreck...

Maybe a light would go off?

LilSis, maybe ask Steve if you decide to talk to him. I think would be great to get SH's input at this point.

Did you ever read Dobson's, 'Love Must Be Tough'?

Happy Birthday, LilSis.

Trix, I disagree with the SAA idea. If he would ever have a hint that MB existed, it could be a disaster. I'm afraid all of LisSis's work could be down the drain and her personal space here would be severely compromised. I hate to even think about what might happen if RT got her grubby little hands on that book, or any other Harley book.

What do you think?