Please start here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK Jo. I'll play.

Well,I believe everything that could be said HAS been said! Night all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I find this conversation and differing opinions on Forgiveness, with or without the offenders repentence, to be interesting and I'd like to learn more about it.

I had never heard the premise we should require the wrong doer to ask for our forgiveness before giving it. I was always taught you forgive regardless.

I agree Jo.

Let me clarify- I did not say that Melody Lane or anyone else was living with a spirit of unforgiveness.

I said that if I (personal) did not forgive I (personal) would be in a spirit of unforgiveness.

I strongly believe that the Bible says in that verse that if they ask for forgiveness you forgive them. I do not see anywhere where it says that ONLY if they ask forgiveness do you forgive them.

I do read where it says that if I go to pray and I have something against someone I need to forgive them for God to hear my prayer.

Well, I want to understand it better.

Since I've struggled with the failure of fully forgiving my ex-H and OW, maybe its the reason why.

Jo

Jo - I think it's a process. The OM in our situation is still making things very difficult for our children. That makes it hard. But I know I have to forgive him and let it go. I do ask God to help me to forgive him.

From the other thread:

"I can tell you this, If I live with a spirit of unforgivenss, I can not have a right relationship with God. That hurts me. It doesn't hurt you if I don't have a right relationship with him.


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MF, does Jesus live with a "spirit of unforgiveness" because not everyone accepts his gift? Does he force this gift cheaply to those who dont want it?"


My reply:
No, Jesus does not live with a spirit of unforgiveness - because he has offered the forgiveness. It is up to others to accept it.

If I fail to do offer it- or be willing to forigve - If I hang on to the hurt and bitterness and hold a grudge- then I am wrong-

Jesus does not do that.

Jo, the bible doesn't say that you ONLY give forgiveness if someone ASKS, but there is no reason to give it if they don't since forgivness takes TWO people, a forgiver and a forgivee. The purpose is reconcilation, not just to make one feel good. God does not forgive people against thier will who do not want it, and doesn't expect us to either.

Here is a good article that explains the principle and purpose of repentance pretty well:

Repentance
By P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Copyright © 1995 by P. G. Mathew
What is repentance? Let me read to you from the Westminster Confession of Faith, a document that comes to us from the seventeenth century: "By [repentance] a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments. . . yet [repentance] is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it. As there is no sin so small that it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly" (Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter XV, sections II, III, IV).


Now that is a good biblical explanation of repentance. Now in the Old Testament the word that is used is shoov. When you read Psalm 80, in verses 3, 7 and 19, there is this prayer offered to God: Turn us, turn us, O God, that we may be saved, or, restore us, that we may be saved. In other words, the word shoov in Hebrew means to turn - to turn from sin and turn unto God. So the heart of repentance is turning. In the New Testament you have the word metanoia. Now that speaks about a radical revolutionary change in our thinking, resulting in a change of our understanding of reality, a change of values, a change of goals, a change of purpose and a change of relationships. In other words, repentance is a revolutionary idea.

Now, repentance is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. No person can be saved without true repentance. When you look at John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus Christ, and see how he preached, we read in Matthew 3:2, In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." When Jesus Christ began his ministry, we read in Matthew 4:17, From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." And the apostles also preached repentance as a necessary condition for salvation. You find that particularly in the preaching of the apostles in the book of Acts. For example, in Acts 17:30 St. Paul preached, "In the past God overlooked such ignorance but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." And after his resurrection and glorification, Jesus Christ himself spoke to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 of the book of Revelation. In chapter 2, verse 5, we read, "Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first." Repent! Repent! Repent! Without repentance there cannot be any salvation. There cannot be any restoration of our relationship with God.

Repentance is part of the gospel. Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection in Luke 24:46-47 that they must preach repentance and forgiveness of sins to all the nations. So we need to ask the question: What is repentance? There is an idea of repentance that is not true. It is called attrition. It is a superficial and false repentance. It is a repentance that is self-focused and self-centered, such as when a mother sees the hand of her child in the cooky jar and then all of a sudden the child repents. The reason for that "repentance" is that he is afraid of punishment. So attrition is fear of punishment, or fear of losing a blessing. It is a false form of repentance. It is self-centered repentance.

con'd at: http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/radio_trans/repent.html

To me, it depends on if you are a Christian or not.

This is the point I have made all along. Jesus is WILLING to forgive everyone, just as we should we willing to forgive everyone.

I have some thoughts on this, but it's too late at night for me to express them coherently.

I do believe that we be open to forgiving.

Do want to say this, though. We can forgive someone without their repenting and asking for forgiveness; but, as far as their salvation goes, our forgiveness of someone for offending us doesn't amount to a hill of beans if they don't repent before God and ask HIS forgiveness.

Actually, in regard to the persons who have grievously offended us and remain unrepentent, I would imagine that many of them couldn't care less about whether or not we forgive them.

I wrote this back in September this year and its still relevant now foe me

Aussies Wife - Beautiful
Lady Clueless - I agree

thankyou BK

I still don't know the answer to the question, if there is one. Do I think I'm lucky ? VERY Do I deserve it? I don't know. probably not.

LC is right sadly from what I see here. So many WS just don't seem to care one way or the other about forgiveness. For a long time into recovery so many BS say that they have got no sorry, a meaningful one anyway. sad.

IMHO, you are required to forgive even if someone does not ask. If you do not, then how can you "Love thy neighbor" when you harbor resentment and anger? I feel it is also required from the following passages in the Bible:

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:25)

"Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)

Big K is correct in my opinion

forgiveness is a process

and it BEGINS with accepting God's forgiveness
(edit to add: which is a daily occurrence, by the way)

so, in that spirit, I think the suggestion of going to confession was an excellent one

having said that
a process proceeds somewhat organically in situations such as adultery

and individual readiness must be respected as an integral part of that process

personal beliefs mixed with past personal experience is the timekeeper as the process of forgiveness unfolds

I did this at my own speed
as do we all

Pep

I agree that forgiveness is a choice that we make everyday. By not indulging our spirits of vengence and anger, we create a sense of peace within.

As we grow in peace, we allow forgiveness to sow. It is defintely a process that must be worked. I MUST believe that this will return me to sanity.

So I work my process of forgiveness everyday. Not just for myself but for my children's future.

My dreams of growing old with WH have been replaced with those of sharing special family events in the future with my children's father. My 2 darling daughters deserve to look forward to these occasions w/o the fear of mom and dad being in the same room.

Michelle

Lots of agreement here this morning. Where's Mel to stir the pot? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

An aside...I wonder if some of our difference of opinion on this issue is doctrinally based. I was raised Catholic, and I am in the forgiveness is a gift we offer/with or without repentance camp. I *believe* this was true of believer as well (if this isn't an accurate description of your belief, B, my apologies)

Wondering if those who view the issue differently might be more evangelical...?

Hope I didn't just set of a bomb, here.