Hello everyone and Happy New Year!

I haven't posted for months since my job went into overdrive, but I would like to discuss the Financial Security (FS) EN.

Let me elaborate on my idea of FS: I don't expect anyone to take care of me; I support myself and live within my budget. However, I do expect a partner to be hardworking, put in equal effort to mine, and be reasonable about how $ is spent versus saved. I think this EN arises from the fact that I grew up very poor. Also, my parents passed away when I was young and I basically only have my sister left, so I have no safety net except what I build for myself.

The problem is that my FS EN seems to be offensive to some men in a way that the Physically Attractive/Attractive Spouse EN (I forget the exact name) is offensive to others. I am not a golddigger by any means, but I do expect my partner to contribute equal effort, even if it is not equal dollars.

For example, I am working in a job that is stressful with long hours in order to get back on my feet financially after my WH (ex-H) took so, so much from me/us financially. If I were in a serious relationship, I would want my partner to contribute the same effort to financial security. So, for example, if my partner were a teacher making a low salary, that would be fine, but I would expect him to (1) live within a budget and save $; and (2) teach classes in the summer to make extra $ instead of taking 3 months vacation in the summer while I'm busting my tail. I think my LBank and respect for the guy would drain rapidly if I felt like he was lazy or didn't work as hard to provide FS for us/our family.

Ok, maybe that makes me shallow. I know there have been similar discussions about the Attractive Spouse EN. I'd like to hear what you guys think.

Also, when it comes to potentially controversial ENs like FSecurity and Attractive Spouse, how are those needs expressed without making the other person feel like you are saying, for example, "I'll only love you as long as you have a good job" or "I'll only love you as long as you are physically attractive"? As a woman, I will admit that I find the ASpouse EN a bit hurtful and threatening -- there are always more beautiful woman out there and I won't be young forever, so how do I meet that EN for the next 40-50 years?! Similarly, I can see how the FS EN might be viewed negatively by a partner. Thoughts? Comments?

hi! welcome back.
these are my thots briefly as i am in a rush.

i have always taken care of myself. i have always earned my own way so to speak. i do look for in a mate someone who can provide with me financially to the needs of the family. do i want a workaholic? no. because family time is important to me as well. i can't stand lazy, lazy is NOT an option. does he have to make a huge salary? no, but i do respect a man who knows how to handle money, save it, invest it for our future, etc. i am not well versed in these areas so i like a man who is so he can be the strong point. bottom line is, i think both should contribute financially for the good of the family and still be there for the family. i prefer to put the bulk of the financial responsibility in the man's hands like paying bills, etc. i would be very happy to earn my check and turn most of it over for bills, savings, etc, and just keep some fun money for myself as long as the man was responsible enuff to take care of things. that is just my preference because even tho i take of my bills being single, it is not my favorite pass time.

so, financially, i do like a good provider who is providing along with me, but someone who also has reasonable hours so we can have family time as well.

i keep myself up for the attractive EN to answer that. i expect my sig other to do the same. not perfect by any means but clean, nicely dressed, showered, etc. i like to be active so i like someone who is too. and, i think a partner is very attractive to me the more i love them and the more i see my en's being met and i think that works both ways. i think there are men that find women even more attractive as their en's are being met.

gotta run, thats my 2 cents.
mlhb

neverthesame,

Are you reacting to an actual situation you have encountered or witnessed recently? Or are you trying to imagine what the average man might say/do in a hypothetical situation? Or you projecting the behavior of one man (your XH) who is a proven jerk onto all men?

I believe that marriage will be easier if spouses have similar values. That applies to religion, politics, childrearing, and finances. If you start with that premise, it seems to me unlikely that you will find yourself in a serious relationship with someone whose values with regard to financial security are widely different from your own. If you knew that about a potential mate, you would not let the relationship progress, would you?

Or, if a potential spouse had everything going for him, except for a different approach to money and saving, could you not keep your finances separate, and enjoy everything else about each other? That might take marriage off the table, but you said “serious relationship,” which I take as “going steady.” It seems to me that people who are going steady shouldn’t be combining finances anyway.

My husband and I keep separate finances, except for one account we use for paying the mortgage and other home expenses. We have separate savings and retirement accounts. He does not have a history of making bad financial decisions, but I don’t even need to worry about it, since he has no access to my money. Of course, if he were such a deadbeat that he didn’t contribute equally to the house account, we’d have a problem. Fortunately, that is not the case. Instead, I get the relief of not knowing or caring how much he spends a month on computer equipment, CDs, books, etc. His money. He can spend it, or not, as he likes.

Perhaps what you are asking is “Am I a bad person if I refuse to consider starting a relationship with a man who does not share my values of financial security?” If that’s what this is about, I’d have to say of course you’re not a bad person. Limiting your relationships to people who share your values (whatever they are) is usually a good idea.

Curious,

I guess I'm concerned that my FS EN is too high. In other words, that my expectations are too high because it's a personal issue with me stemming from bad past experiences (childhood and ex-WH).

By analogy, if a person were to expect their spouse to always be young & attractive forever, or never gain even a pound, or whatever, that would be unrealistic. I agree that I should up keep my appearance, stay healthy, etc, but we all age. So, when is an EN expectation unrealistic?

I can think of prior examples and a current one, but still I wonder if it's more my issue and an unrealistic need on my part. Perhaps separate finances will be necessary for me, and yet I'd really like to be with someone who contributes equally because I would always worry that I will eventually have to carry their weight if they don't save enough for retirement. Curious -- if your husband didn't pay his share of the mortgage, what would you do? What if he spent too much and you had to pay for all of a major house repair? What would happen if this occurred regularly?

There is a guy who wants to date me now. (Not sure when I'll have time, but that's another issue.) He makes a decent living, especially considering that he doesn't work long hours like most New Yorkers and he gets lots of vacation (his job is for a European-based entity). He also seems to manage his money fairly well, although he probably spends more than I would on a percentage basis. So, overall he's fine and has a good standard of living. However, it bothers me a little that he isn't motivated enough to take a job that requires just a few more hours a week in exchange for significantly more pay. It's like there's an element of laziness there, and I'm not sure that's a fair thing to say since I seem to be comparing him to the average workaholic New Yorker. Other than that, I do not consider him to be lazy.

Does the guy who wants to date you live within his means? Does he own a home? Does he enjoy is time off? Does he expect you to pay for things? If he is living within his means, why should he be a work-a-holic?

Nev, of course, you’re not shallow because you don’t want to enable a grown man to vacation, veg, or play at a hobby instead of working at something. You know what you want and need, and you even know why you want and need it. Don’t worry.

And it’s not about the money, really, is it?

You want someone who wants to be successful. You probably also want someone who gets satisfaction from a job well done. Nothing wrong with that. You need someone who has a similar risk tolerance when it comes to money. In other words, you need someone who understands rainy days will come, and there had better be something in the bank.

Do you know that Charles Dickens always felt the wolf at the door? The man was driven by a fear of being two steps from the poor house even after he was a household name.

Greengables, I think you summarized it well, and I agree, I have Charles Dickens-itis (even though I am much less successful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I was worried that I have too high of a need for FS and that it would cause me unnecessary problems in a relationship. I don't want a work-a-holic, but my idea of FS may be higher than necessary given my fears. I want to be reasonable, just like I would want my partner to be reasonable about the Physical Attraction EN if that was a top EN for him (e.g., people age, etc, but can still be attractive -- I don't want to be held to unreasonable standards of attraction).

neverthesame,

I think I see what you’re saying.

OK, fair question. So, what, specifically is your FS EN? Spell it out explicitly, and let’s see if it sounds too high or not. In spelling it out, you might consider a whole range of things: annual income, debt-to-savings ratio, estimated retirement income – whatever is meaningful to you. But try to be as explicit as you can. For myself, I have found that it is very comforting that my husband and I are roughly equivalent in salary and wealth. In fact, I now make more than he does, but he has slightly greater wealth because he has a longer work history than I do. So it still evens out. With that equality, there’s never a question of paying what you can afford vs. what seems fair. Of course, it’s a much different dynamic when one partner is a stay-at-home parent. Fortunately for us, that’s not an issue we need to negotiate.

Very, very fair concern in my opinion. And I believe it would be completely reasonable for you to require that a potential spouse demonstrate a reasonable level of savings before you commit to a life partnership with them. That is, I agree that you should not get into a committed relationship where there is a high risk that you will be financing the other person’s lifestyle or his retirement.

It might help to read the background of my marriage here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=0#Post3154252. But basically, if I had had any indication that he didn’t manage his financial responsibilities well, I would never have moved in together and signed a lease for an apartment with him. And if he had not been consistent in bearing his half of the apartment rent and expenses when we first started living together, I would not have bought a house with him. And if he had not been consistent about paying his half of the mortgage and home ownership expenses, I would not have married him. But as it is, he proved himself well as we proceeded through each of those wickets. Now, with all that in place, if something happened and he could no longer contribute financially, I would see a lawyer and financial advisor to do whatever I could to protect myself (and him, if he’s incapacitated).

I think you might have at least two different things going on here at once. One is his long-term financial solvency. (It sounds like he’s in fine shape in the short-term.) The other issue, as Greengables has deftly noted, is that he may simply not be the kind of man you find attractive. It’s ok to be attracted to a certain level of career-related energy and motivation. It doesn’t make you a bad person.

As someone whose husband left for a wealthy woman, largely because, after working all my adult life, I became a SAHM after our sixth child was born, I would strongly recommend that you be completely honest about what constitutes financial support and what constitutes sufficient effort. Clearly homeschooling and raising six kids, including a toddler who was moderately developmentally delayed, was not enough for my H - he told me after he left that he was angry that I had not gone back to work when our youngest was two or younger. Unfortunately he never mentioned to me that he wanted me to. I wish he had told me on our first date that I had better never take more than a few months maternity leave. There would never have been a second date, much less a twenty-one year marriage.

It is not fair to hide your expectations from a potential partner who may think that a decent full-time job is enough to preclude accusations of laziness.

I also have a high FS need and I think that's OK. I didn't learn until into the M that my X was not as financially responsible as he led me to believe.
I also want a motivated, productive individual. For me, that may mean I would be best suited with individuals in my field, as we tend to think alike (versus dating an artistic type).
My X told me to get a job in NYC so he could stay home and raise the kids. I would have loved to have stayed home with my kids longer, but due to my high FS need, I was concerned about paying the mortgage.
For those of us with this high need, I think we need a larger safety net than others. I met with a financial planner who told me I didn't have enough for him to manage, but I was doing OK, and not to beat myself up over money.
We can do it ourselves, so we want someone who also can do for themselves.

Now, this doesn't mean that if we remarry we wouldn't support a business venture, or educational venture, if it were a joint decision. Just that we have a higher need.
I also have a high need to avoid individuals who spend weekends watching sports on TV. Get out and do something. Is this unreasonable? Probably, but that's my need.

Just be clear with yourself & your future partner. Have the level of effort you need to see & the percentage of money you need to see going to expenses & retirement VS fun firmly established in your mind. Do be able to recognize the workaholic though, they aren't very good at a life that includes others.

Nellie2 & I have something in common regarding our exs. We'd agreed SAHM was best for all involved yet I believe, after the fact of D, he wanted more financial contribution from me. He too never expressed that to me, among many other things left unsaid. ex now lives with his gf who is NMNK & appears quite ambitious work wise.

Just be clear about your needs & wants.

Same here.
So, I (think I do) understand you...


High or not, those are YOUR expectations; if you cannot 'lower' them, accept them, and search for ways(the man) to get what you expect...


... And that's why separate finances won't satisfy you either (been there), because of that different approach to money/financ.stability/future...


It's different if, e.g., he works 4 hrs per day and earns $30K and doesn't want to work more for more money, vs. he works 8 hrs per day for $150K and doesn't want to work 12 hrs for $200K.
However, what matters is - how 'low' income (of his) you can accept to be comfortable with by living in the house you chose to buy with him equally and have reciprocal standard of living, or can you accept to pay more than him to have the standard of living that You need/want...
I.e., you either have a man that earns enough to be able (equally with you, or more) to provide for life you want, or You are OK by paying more to get that 'lifestyle' You need.
(I had the second 'option', and it built resentement... and I know I could not do that anymore...)
Also, if he's younger, you might have success in motivating him to earn/have more... if older, I doubt it...
Or it's just my experience...

Good for you! I understand totally that some men out there are threatened by a woman who can really and truly take care of herself in every way, I experienced that a lot early on in my dating post-divorce.

I don't think your expections are unreasonable at all! As a matter of fact, I think your needs and wants in a future partner show great responsibility and maturity on your part! Any guy out there should be thrilled to find a reasonable, level-headed independent lady such as yourself - he'd be very, very lucky to have you!

Laura

You know, even if you DID want your husband to totally financially support you, there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is agreed upon by you both. Your needs are your needs. Nobody has a NEED for his wife to be eternally youthful - that would be more like a sign of a psychological problem. But the need for FS is a very common one for women, despite the fact that our society tries so hard to make us feel like gold-diggers for it!

There are lots of men out there who would probably be too extreme in their desire to take care of you financially, and lots who would not be willing to give enough. But somewhere in there are men who will find your level of need for FS to be just right for them. The better you communicate it to potential mates, the greater the chance that you'll find someone who really wants what you do.

I am very sorry that our society has such weird attitudes about money and sex. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just all admit to what we REALLY want, and if we find out it's insane then just go get some good therapy and move on? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think it would be so much easier to tell what the heck is going on if we could all just expose our real needs and wishes to potential spouses. I guess we try so hard to be pleasing that we get too scared to admit even to ourselves, sometimes, what we really need. FS and SF are areas we often end up concealing our true selves, for some reason.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I feel comfortable that my need for FS is very reasonable. I also realize that my reaction to the lack of that need may be stronger than the average person because of prior bad experiences. So, I just need to keep this in mind if and when I ever get into a serious relationship again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am also one that has a high need for FS if I were to go by the EN's list.I don't always agree with it but for now,I will go with it.

I also will want a man,one day,who is financially stable.The last thing I want is someone who is struggling all the time.I don't want to be that way either.It's very important to me to not have debt and to have money saved too,for emergencies or for those times where I want to travel or get my kids something nice,etc.

Granted it's harder now being D'd and having to split the total income whereas if we had stayed together we'd be wealthy.But I am doing well for myself and it helps me sleep at night.It's always been a priority for me.

So,I would definitely avoid anyone with thousands of dollars of debt and had no financial sense.I hear about these couples who rack up ton$ on their dozen credit cards and I cringe.

Personally,I am not looking for someone who makes $200K a year as being the only option.But I do want someone responsible and who lives within their *means.Working to live,not living to work.I know of a few couples who have spent so much of their income on a fancy car to show off as they drive around but live in a dump of a house and have no savings whatsover.