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Be brave, it's going to take hard work to save your marriage but it's better than living in misery. I wish you the best of luck! Keep the faith and fight the good fight.

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Good Luck and be strong. You've got a good plan. As my pastor told me, don't chop her off at the knees, don't belittle her. Be strong in your conviction to save your marriage. And what ever happens, don't let her go to Chicago by herself. It if is truly for work, go with her. Your marriage is worth it.


CHERISH YESTERDAY, DREAM TOMORROW, LIVE TODAY BS 33 FWW 34 D-Day June 27, 2006 (PA) DS - 17 y.o DD - 12 y.o Married 13 yrs together 16+ yrs
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Then the big QUESTION. What are you really going to Chicago for. I need to you to be honest & open with me. If she says, Work. I'll mention that there is no plans for tradeshows. I will continue until she tells me. If not, I will confront her with th einfo I have.


Just jumping in here, but having been there done a version of that with my ex's first EA, I would instead not ask her---but instead just spread out all the proof. Then tell her you love her and want to fix this and the issues in the marriage that have helped create an environment where this could happen.

Are you knowledgable with the concepts of no contact and exposure? Even if she agrees, some exposure will have to happen to protect them from continuing the fantasy.

How often does your WW travel?

I know you have lots of fear right now. I can remember that fear as if I bottled it up myself and have it a hand's reach. It's still that fresh. But if I could give you any advice, it's to realize that what YOU do in attempts to stop the affair are OKAY. It's okay to snoop. You aren;t gonna drive her away by those actions. She'll love to twist it around about you not trusting her, etc. But like Mel said--you'd be a fool not to check in on her.

You're really at a good point--you can stop her BEFORE she makes it a PA. If it goes PA, that opens up more for her to be dorry for and regret one day--and I always wanted to save my now ex from having to deal with the consequences he made for himself. She will thank you for this one day.


BW-me, 29
XH, 29
3 sons-now 6,4,2
Divorce final--Sept. 27, 2006.


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Don't bother trying to make her tell you the truth to long. It is excruciatingly painful and she will NOT tell you the truth. It's call the WALL OF DENIAL. She's already addicted to this guy and in toooooo deep. She can't tell you the truth and that's OK...just bust her on it.

Additionally...she's likely to keep denying it even after you confront with the all you know. You don't have to convince her of what she already knows but she will want you to list out all your proof, reverse the tables on you and attack you for getting such proof while she figures out how she can lie her way around the proof. She knows and now you know...it's that simple.

Since this guy only has a couple hours to go I'm going to go get you my Do's and Don't list of Plan A as a short reminder of how you should be behaving tonight. It is very unlikely your wife is going to jump into your arms and beg for forgiveness...this is real...not the movies...she is going to be mad as heck that you have ruined her addiction.


Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Is OM married?????


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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OK...the list of Do's and Don'ts.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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5. Then the big QUESTION. What are you really going to Chicago for. I need to you to be honest & open with me. If she says, Work. I'll mention that there is no plans for tradeshows. I will continue until she tells me. If not, I will confront her with th einfo I have.

The others are right. Don't play cat and mouse games with her by asking questions to which you already know the answer. The longer it takes to get the truth out there, the longer it will take you to get to a truthful discussion.

So, DON'T ASK HER if she is having an affair, tell her YOU KNOW she is and ask for an explanation.

And leave all the other stuff [steps 1-4] for another day when you are in recovery. The Titantic is sinking and you can worry about the paint in the girl's bathroom later. FIRST, get the ship uprighted and THEN you can work on the paint. Steps 1-4 are the paint and should be saved for a later date.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Be warned. Her first instict will be to lie to you, and if it is truly an EA then she will play it down also.

You have proof of an EA, and if she goes on the Chicago trip it will be a PA. Even if she doesn't think so.

I asked my W about the first time that it went too far. She told me that they made plans to meet after work, just to talk. As she puts it now, "she should have know better".

She may not even realize what is going to happen when they meet. She probably thinks it will just be talk. But as many people on MB know, It will not stay at talk.


Good luck, you have my support.


Bs (27) - me FWW (28) Married: 06/02 D-Day: 11/05 PA: 7/04-10/04 (MOM) EA: 9/04-D-day (with a different OM) Daughter born 3-13-07. Recovery Status: W acting like my W again; I missed her so much. Read my story
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ecdoesit...How did it go? Was thinking about your situation and evening and was hoping you made it through.


BS - 38 (me) WW - 32 S - 4 (with me) Married 7 years DDay - 8/18/06 (PA) Sep - 10/23/06 - moved back 5/22/07 - out again 6/8/07 Status - Divorce official 7/24/2007 "I know God won't give me more than I can handle. I just wish He didn't trust me so much."
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Again. I want to thank everyone here for their thoughts, prayers, concern and help.
Here is how it went:
I picked her up at the airport and talked about her trip. I talked about progress I've been making with time blocking, procrastination, Pass. Aggres., and our marriage. I mentioned that I had had drinks with her brother over the last few days, as we were approaching the home.
We got in the house and I let her unwind for a bit. Poured a glass of wine and warmed up some leftovers for her. Like usual she went right for the TV, 8 days in Vegas makes a person a zombie, and I knew what was coming was going to hit her hard.
I leaned over kissed her on the forehead and turned the TV off. I faced her and said "Can you be honest with me as to why you were going to Chicago? Work was the answer. Again I said I am willing to work as hard on this relationship as anything I have ever done. can you be honest with me and tell me why you were going to Chicago. I'm not going as my boss told me today I didnt' have to go. (really she had emailed the guy and said she had second thoughts) I said that there are no upcoming tradeshows for microsoft. this went on for about 10 minutes with me getting nowhere. She is an extremely tough cookie, it stems from a mother who has had to care for multiple terminally ill relatives for the past 22 years.
I also told her that I was going to come to Chicago to surprise her and found out there was no show. So again why are you going.
So I had to step it up.
I told her I was out with her brother and we talked about his trip to see his friend, the OP. Apparently the guy is a wreck as his relationship is completely fallen apart. Bro-in-law was going to see him, console him, and hang out. I said apparently OP is going to be in Chicago the same days you are supposed to go for work. Still stone face, but I could see her mind racing, as if she was stuck in a corner. She said, "yeah, he is an old friend and that just happened to be there the same tiume I was supposed to be" I said, hes not just an old friend, but an OBF that you lived with.

I was really surprised that she was so solid and not visibly upset. this hurt, but I held my ground. I asked so where were you going to stay. She said she had gotten a room. I asked if it was at hotelX She said yes. I said that's funny thats the same hotel OBF was staying at and he got a room with 2 king beds.
How do you know all of this?
Honey, I mentioned earlier that I am willing to work harder on our marriage than anyting I have ever worked on in my life. So, were you going to Chicago? Work.
I couldn't believe that with everything I had layed out she was still going with this.
next part in a few minutes

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You shouldn't have been surprised. We told you the WS denies, denies, denies. You could have pictures of them having sex and it will take them a day or two to come back and say, "yeah, you got me, that was me having sex with OM." They will deny until they can try and figure up something to get away with it. They will only come clean after careful thought has revealed that there is no getting out of it.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
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Does not surprise me in the least. They will lie and lie and lie...it is incredible...even when you have concrete proof they will deny and then may only admit to things you have proof of...it is the same script for all...be prepared...they will go to great lengths to allow the fantasy to continue.


BS - 38 (me) WW - 32 S - 4 (with me) Married 7 years DDay - 8/18/06 (PA) Sep - 10/23/06 - moved back 5/22/07 - out again 6/8/07 Status - Divorce official 7/24/2007 "I know God won't give me more than I can handle. I just wish He didn't trust me so much."
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Oh, and I'm waiting for the part where she says, "I can't believe you spied on me. How could you invade my privacy? I can't trust you anymore. If you can't trust me, it is over." Typical WS script.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
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Finally Itold her everything. We had had a big blow up in early Nov. At which point she told me that there were a lot of things about us she didn't like. How different we were. How tough our lives together have been. (9/11, mother dying, us movig west to her home town, father w/ parkinson, no job, new career, me open heart surgery. You name it.)
She felt that we were drifting apart and that we had never really gotten to know each other.
I told her how at Thanksgiving I had been surfing the net on her laptop at her brothers when an email popped up on her screen. There were a series of emails from the OP, yet days earlier she had said she hadn't spoken with him in some time. They had been discussing Paulo Coelho's Zahir. Apparently the OP had turned her onto him years earlier with the Pilgramige & Alchemist. They talked about comprimising oneself and how they both had done this and are in messed up situations. She was furious. "So you've been torturing yourself re-reading these since then. Why didn't you come to me then"
I told her because at that point I would have just blown up and made everything worse and that I needed to analyze myself, and us. I needed to fix me and try and work on us at the same time. did you notice how I've been trying to live up to your emotional needs.
"so you've been reading my emails behind my back. That's F-Up. I can't trust you, I can't believe......acqusations, etc.
Honey, do you know what an emotional affair is? It is when you can't be open with the one you love, you turn to someone else who meets that need. You OBF is a master salesperson. According to your brother this guy can weave tells to make them sound like they are coming out of your mouth and not his
Part 3 in a moment

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"so you've been reading my emails behind my back. That's F-Up. I can't trust you, I can't believe......acqusations, etc.

What do I win?!? I called it!


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
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Oh, and I'm waiting for the part where she says, "I can't believe you spied on me. How could you invade my privacy? I can't trust you anymore. If you can't trust me, it is over." Typical WS script.

there ya go: ""so you've been reading my emails behind my back. That's F-Up. I can't trust you, I can't believe......acqusations, etc."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> right according to script!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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"so you've been reading my emails behind my back. That's F-Up. I can't trust you, I can't believe......acqusations, etc.

What do I win?!? I called it!

You don't win nothing for "guessing" a cat is going to say MEOW!! DUH!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Jim - See, this place DOES work. After awhile you can predict the future.

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Ok what is next...we need some time apart...I need my privacy...I need time away from you so I can think about things...I never really loved you...I have no feelings left for you...our marriage never has worked from the start...your pushing me into a corner...he is just a friend?


BS - 38 (me) WW - 32 S - 4 (with me) Married 7 years DDay - 8/18/06 (PA) Sep - 10/23/06 - moved back 5/22/07 - out again 6/8/07 Status - Divorce official 7/24/2007 "I know God won't give me more than I can handle. I just wish He didn't trust me so much."
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A large wooden OM! (with apologies 2 Spacecase, who ac2ally has one - literally, the Eastern "Om", not an effigy of a cheater!).

-ol' 2long

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I predict her next "jewel" will come from something like this (which is ac2ally a great quote for ecdoesit):

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Emotional Unavailability


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From “How To Recognize Emotional Unavailability And Make Healthier Relationship Choices” by Bryn Collins, M.A., L.P.

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An emotionally unavailable relationship occurs whenever one partner is unable to reach out and make a heart connection with another person, while the other partner feels as is it is somehow his/her fault and thus bears the responsibility to fix it by being perfect. Such a relationship seems easy to spot-until you are in the middle of it.

An emotionally unavailable partner does not want love as much as he or she wants control. Emotions seem unsafe; control lends an illusion of safety. If you are in a relationship, you expect the relationship to grow and deepen over time; you expect a heart connection to be made and maintained, and you operate your life on the basis of this expectation.

When your partner does not make the same emotional connection, the result is trauma and pain. Often the emotionally unavailable person has no awareness his or her own contribution to the relationship’s collapse. Nevertheless, at a certain point it is essential for you to cut the entangling ties and move on.

Excerpts from one of the Emotionally Unavailable types:

James Bond: Spies & Lies

He won’t tell you where he lives. She will give you only a work number. He’s evasive about his history, friends, job and background. A year after you marry her, you find out she’s been married before. A mistress shows up. You find bills for credit cards you didn’t know you had.

Secrets and the lies that support them make it very hard to make an emotional connection. In part that’s because the secrets create a wall. In part it’s also because the secrets take a lot of energy to maintain and that energy is stolen from having a relationship with a person.

James Bonds are secret-keepers who with hold information from people with whom they are in a relationship. Sometimes this is because they believe the secrets give them power or an illusion of mystery and excitement; other times it is because the revelation of the secrets will end the relationship and they won’t get what they want-the reason for keeping secrets in the first place.

When you get into a relationship with a James Bond, you may enjoy the mystery at first. It’s kind of exciting not to know when he or she will suddenly appear to sweep you into whatever passed for his or her Aston Martin or private jet and then just as suddenly disappear again.

As the relationship moves along, however, predictability becomes more important and desirable to you, but the James Bond has no interest in being trapped by your rational expectation of continuity in the relationship.

You begin to snoop. Bond leaves you alone in the car or the apartment for a few minutes, and your fingers stray to the glove compartment or desktop. You hate yourself for what you’re doing, but you can’t stop. Bills, letters, scraps with phone numbers-a flood of information without explanation. What you’re looking for are the missing pieces of James Bond’s life that you don’t get to know. The problem is that you have no threads to weave into a fabric of truth. All you have is scraps that have no clear meaning.

Or, worse perhaps, you DO find something; a breathless love letter you didn’t write, a sexy card you didn’t send, a photo that isn’t you. Now what do you do? Now you have information and a whole new conundrum. In order to confront James Bond with the information, you have to admit you’ve been snooping. Then Bond has the perfect out: he or she can get mad at you for snooping, and never have to own up to the rest of it.

The other thing that happens is that you lose trust completely. Being in a relationship with someone you don’t trust isn’t being in a relationship at all. It begins to undermine your trust in yourself as well and that undermines your self-image, which makes you more vulnerable, which undermines your self-confidence-you can see the descending spiral here.

Meanwhile, James Bond isn’t making any changes. The secrets and lies continue, surrounded by denials and protestations of honesty or indignation that you would even suspect him or her of not being completely truthful.

James Bond has difficulty with both trust and honesty, which makes trust impossible.

The sad thing is that even if he or she changes completely, it’s still really hard to build trust because of the history. So you get more and more suspicious and less and less trusting while James continues along the self-focused path of getting his or her needs met above all else.

When the situation (we can’t really call this a relationship) finally blows up-and these relationships almost invariably blow up rather than fade away-your ability to trust anyone blows right with it. The next person who comes into your life will be under the microscope, and that is a very uncomfortable spot for anyone. The new potential partner often departs to avoid being distrusted at every turn.

-ol' 2long

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