Question #1: I was just talking to my best friend last night and she said the phrase "when you are dating someone special you should still guard your heart," which I've heard before (or variations thereon). I understand the meaning, but I really don't understand exactly how people do this and she couldn't describe it either. It seems especially difficult if you are dating someone you like and the two of you are developing a relationship. Does anyone here manage to guard their heart, and exactly how?

Question #2: At least for me, the MBuilders concepts have been informative. One thing I don't understand though is the timing and likelihood of people falling in love. I've read stories on here about WS who, when their ENs are met by OP, think they are "in love" -- sometimes in a matter of months or even weeks. Yet when I think about the dating world (legitimate dating, not As), it seems that it takes much longer for people to fall in love and they may not even if their ENs are being met and they are dating/attracted to each other. So what is the difference? I realize that everyone and every situation is different, but let's discuss the "average" situation.

Thanks

hmm... good questions.

i think for me for question number1: i think i will continue to "guard" my heart to some extent until i know for sure a relationship is going to be permanent i.e. an engagement. engagement to me says yes, we are going to eventually get married and be together forever. at that point in time i would feel it was "safe" to completely let my heart be free. now, that doesn't mean that i am not giving 100% in a relationship. i guess i am giving 99% because 1% is that little bit still guarding my heart. you can date for years the same person and not decide until that point to make it more permanent by an engagement, and i guess for that time frame that 1% would still be guarding my heart. you just never ever know what could happen in a relationship ya know? and i guess you don't know even if you do get engaged or even married as we have all found out.

how do it do it? i am not sure i can explain it. my sitch right now: i love my bf, and i know i am falling in love with him too. but there is a small piece of myself that i hang onto until i know for sure this is going to be permanent. a small piece i hang onto that, if for some reason we do not work out, i will have that piece safe to help me get through it. and i think he would tell you the same thing. i do think we will get there eventually, but right now is too soon. so i have a small piece i hang onto and when the time come that this relationship is definitely a permanent thing, i will at that time freely release it. and you know what? that could be a year or two from now! it doesn't make our dating relationship any less enjoyable because we hang onto certain parts of ourselves at all because i think all of us, especially after what we have been thru, do it to a certain extent.

question 2: how long to fall in love? i dunno. i knew i was starting to love bf long before i ever was with him in person. we talked from april to august before we ever met. i got to know him from the inside out instead of the other way around. then when i was with him and the inside met up with the outside that was all it took! when i learned he absolutely was everything he said he was and even more, how could your needs not be being met? i don't know a lot about someone meetings en's and not feeling love for that person. this en stuff is all knew to me since i knew nothing of it in marriage. does bf meet my en's? i have to say he meets pretty much all of them for sure. is that kind of scary sometimes? actually, it is a bit. i know it is for him. but if he wasn't making me feel good in all ways i wouldn't want to be with him. having my needs met and having my cut runneth over def caused feelings of love.

did i even answer anything? lol
mlhb

I think that if you really know what you are looking for in a relationship, you know who you are and how you want to be, then you will enter a new relationship with integrity. The times when my heart has been hurt the most are the times when I compromised on my values and shouldn't have. That's how I should guard my heart, by staying true to me.

The more hurt a heart becomes, the harder it is to let it go in subsequent relationships. I know that, even though I am married, I am not -- never have been -- head-over-heels like I have been in the past. I miss that feeling, but maybe it wasn't a safe thing for me to be "drunk on love". I did compromise myself before. I won't know. My boundaries are pretty strong, even with Hubby.

Remember that most people who seek out an OP are vulnerable. Their ENs are not being met and probably haven't been for a long time. They are desparate. Same could be true for folks who end up in rebound relationships.


When people are legitimately dating, they may do so with their heads, more so than with their bodies or even their hearts. They are looking for something and are careful to get it.


Mrs. W8ing

There are definitely advantages to online dating. I did it. Its how I met Hubby. However there are disadvantages, too. If you know your ENs are physical ones like an Attractive Spouse, Sexual Fulfilment, Financial Support, Domestic Support, or Recreational Companionship, it may be difficult to determine from an online relationship whether or not the person can meet your needs. You can only hear/read what they tell you, not see how they truly behave.

For example, one of my top ENs is DS. I had a longdistance friendship with Hubby (I was dating local people casually at the time) for a year. Every time I saw his home it was immaculate. However, it wasn't until he lived here and I saw how he really lived every day that I knew he was a slob and that this EN would go mostly unmet.

Granted, I don't think that the average dating folks really know what their ENs are and even when they are dating "for real" and in person, they probably let things slide that they shouldn't because they are top ENs.


Mrs. W8ing

yes i agree waiting.. altho i didn't meet bf through a dating site, i met him here on mb after divorce dating board! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

but, like you said, things like ds en you would not know even if you dated someone local.. some things you just don't know until you live with someone.

mlhb

hmm, I am still not getting it...

One of my guy friends answered my question by saying: "you just limit how much you let a particular guy hurt you." Well, I understand that if a guy hurts me, I don't have to go back for more of the same, but the initial hurt is already done.

Mlhb, you said: "there is a small piece of myself that i hang onto until i know for sure this is going to be permanent. a small piece i hang onto that, if for some reason we do not work out, i will have that piece safe to help me get through it. and i think he would tell you the same thing. i do think we will get there eventually, but right now is too soon. so i have a small piece i hang onto and when the time come that this relationship is definitely a permanent thing, i will at that time freely release it."

May I ask, what piece? I'm sorry to be dense, but I'm just not understanding. I can understand that not all parts of my life would be integrated until the relationship is permanent. So those parts that are still "mine", such as "my" good friends, maybe a hobby, etc, will help me get through any pain/hurt that may occur. I don't understand how keeping those parts prevent the hurt. Also, exactly what do you hold back and still have radical honesty & openness with someone you are dating seriously?

Some thoughts of mine relating to Question #2: My top ENs are a mix of the "typical" female and male top ENs. For example, recreational companionship is big for me, as it is for many guys. So, looking back on past dating relationships, I feel like it was somewhat natural for me to meet a typical man's ENs and his mine. As a result, we would end up in a relationship and/or the guy would feel more strongly than he expected, BUT...they don't move past that to the "in love" stage. Makes me wonder what I do wrong. My best (female) friend thinks the guy gets scared that things are going so well and puts up walls, but I don't believe this. I think I just can't move things beyond dating/like/respect/care to love/in love.

nev, how quickly do you expect "love" to happen is what i would ask you? are you expecting it too soon into a dating relationship? i think sometimes needs need to be met for a long time before those feelings turn into a true love feeling.

as far as "i keep a little piece".. it is not in terms of physical things like friendships, etc.. i mean a little piece of my heart. meaning, for example, i love my bf and i am falling in love with him. but i won't give him my complete heart and soul forever love until i know this is going to be permanent. if i give myself THAT completely and this doesn't work out i will be in for a world of hurt. that is what i mean by holding a piece back.

mlhb

and i should add that he would say the same thing. he won't give his "complete" self to me either right now until he is ready and until he is 100% sure this is going to be a permanent forever relationship. i think it is just called protecting yourself.

to answer your question...I think everyone is different, but in general, a true love feeling takes a while...as in a year or so. Possibly 6 months at the VERY earliest, but I suspect that may be more of a falling in love stage or a hindsight (blurry) view of when the person fell in love. I suppose I have fallen in love as early as 8 months - not exactly sure. Personally, I would be suspicious of an "in love" feeling after only a few weeks or a couple of months. I'm curious to know what the rest of the people think on the average time - especially the guys.

Thanks for clarifying the "holding back" part. At the risk of frustrating you, I'm still not clear on how a person does what you describe. In a prior long-term relationship, I tried to do this, but was unable. Any help on how you reserve a little when you are falling in love/do fall in love with someone, but you're not at 100% yet (as in engagement/marriage)? (Oh, and by the way, I am not even close to this stage in any relationship. In fact, I think about giving up on dating. I know I'm likable, but feel a bit non-true lovable. Anyway...)

thanks

well nev, i am not sure how i do this to be honest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

um, i think it is "easier" to do it because we are ldr. if we lived in the same town and were seeing eachother weekly i do not think i would be able to do it. i would probably be head over heals nuts crazy gaga if we lived in the same town! we would probably be moving way too fast because we really really do enjoy being together. for this reason the distance is a good thing. that is probably the ONLY plus for an ldr is you want to take things slowly and do them right. not that i don't feel very strongly for him now anyway, i do! i think about him all the time and still get butterflies when i know we are going to talk or see eachother. i pretty far gone!

but i just, i don't know, maybe i kind of "stuff" that 1% so it doesn't come out. i think that 1% to be is this: we don't do things as a "family" yet as in we have not met eachothers kids yet and have not had our kids meet yet. when we are together we are not spending time with eachothers families as in parents, etc.. and not doing all kinds of things with eachother's friends. that kind of stuff is the stuff you would do when you know you are going to be a permanent thing and when you are really really serious. so that is part of the 1% hold back as well.

we are dating exclusively and we want to work towards what i described above. but we set no time frame on when that is going to happen either.

am i just making it more confusing?? ugh! sorry....
mlhb

Regardless of how much you like someone you guard your heart. Why? Because you are divorced. You have been hurt. Right now we (divorced folk) should be putting our kid(s) first, then us second. The person above, who I know very well, understands that I will and need to do what's best for me emotionally before falling into something with her or anyone else. How do you do this? You talk about issues/problems IMMEDIATELY. You express doubts, feelings, frustrations and needs IMMEDIATELY. If you need to slow down and spend time with yourself and not date, then do it. I've done this twice over the past year and am kind of sort of doing it again. When it comes to guarding my heart I am Martin Brodeur or Dominik Hasek.

gekko... you say you know me? where from? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i def agree with the discussing feelings, thoughts, ideas, etc IMMEDIATELY part. very very important. never ever keeping anything inside.

does that help you at all nev?

mlhb

mlhb and gekko -- yes, your insights help, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

I do not have children, so I may have less of a barrier in that sense. However, I understand your point because I believe that I would be fierce about putting my children's interest above my own.

As far as bringing up feelings, thoughts, ideas immediately, I also agree that is necessary and I would like to think that I do a good job of that in relationships.

All that being said, I will admit that my heart sometimes gets more involved/attached than I want it to, especially when things seem to be going really well for a long while. I want to keep something back, but at some point I've lost some of that control.

I will try to think of it as keeping the realistic perspective that, no matter how great things are at the moment and for how long, the relationship could still fall apart due to things outside of my control. Maybe just reminding myself of the lack of any guarantee will help me pull my heart back a little more.

On the matter of pace, post-divorce I have twice developed a strong attraction to a woman within a matter of weeks of meeting her (with neither case involving the distorting effects of either intensive or intimate contact). I don't know if that's quite the same thing as "falling in love" - to me it's not - but I reckon it's pretty darn close. Note that I'm not talking about infatuation here, but a genuine appreciation of the woman for who she is. (If you're interested, I consider the "falling in love" part to happen when I stop fighting the attraction!)

This level of attraction seemed to take longer when I was younger (although I really only have my ex-wife to supply as a test-case). I attribute the difference to the fact that I know myself and what I want much better now than I did then.

For me, the purpose of "guarding my heart" is not to manage the risk of getting hurt by someone. If I let my hopes get too high only to be disappointed, or if I pursue only to be rejected, it won't be the end of the world (regardless of how it may feel for a time). I'm not interested in "holding back" a piece of myself.

No, for me the purpose of "guarding my heart" is not to avoid pain, but to avoid regret. It is about not allowing the impulses of my heart to rule my behavior. (Thus it is in my choices rather than my emotions that I need to "hold back.") I must continually ask myself how much my feelings are a response to reality, and how much are a response to fantasy or hope. I must continually judge whether a particular action is truly in the best interests of both of us.

It is in that latter question where I find the true key to guarding my heart - to guarding against coveting or lusting after someone who may never be "mine." The key is in loving - not just being "in love." If I genuinely love someone, focusing on what (or who) is truly best for her, then I have no room left in my heart to objectify her as something I want and (perhaps) can't have.

holy cow gnome, you should be a writer! that was very thought out and profound... much more professional than my "blonde" confusing gibberish LOL LOL

i kind of like the bottom line straight to the point answer: we have been hurt, very hurt, in marriages that were supposed to last forever. thus, we understandably guard our hearts. those who don't i think are naive or are really taking a chance, or rather, maybe even a risk. lets face it, hurt hurts! we don't want to hurt anymore. we never ever want to feel the pain we felt in our marriages.to give all of ourselves makes us vulnerable and vulnerable is scary. you really need to be in a good place yourself and with the op before you can allow that vulnerability.

but, no matter what, in the end, you are always taking a chance. and i do believe in the statement " i would rather have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" and i would. not love foolishly mind you, not do the "rebound right after leaving ex" stuff, not do the "fall in love after only knowing eachother a week" stuff. i mean true real we have really gotten know eachother and spent quality time together and shared everything kind of love. life is just too short, ya know?

mlhb

Nev, et al,

I'll take the chance here of being very simple...very direct... very practicle: (Asked as Thought Leading Questions)

1. If you allow someone to begin to dominate your time in a relationship too quickly so that the LEGITIMATE Life Balance of work + chores + other family + other friends + recreation + exercise + sleep, etc begins to get crowded out & distorted into imbalance --- have you really "guarded your heart"?

2. If you allow yourself to share too much of your personal story & the deeper secrets of your heart far too quickly with a new person in a relationship in such a way that you build a false sense of emotional intimacy --- have you really "guarded your heart"?

3. If you allow yourself to begin to say &/or receive the "L" word -> as in I Love You, before you can match romance with commitment, have you really "guarded your heart"?

4. If you allow yourself to participate in physical & sexual actions that are designed to be safely enjoyed only within the safe bounds of forever marriage commitment, BEFORE you are in that safe, committed place, have you really "guarded your heart"??

5. If you allow yourself to be manipulated into a pace in relationship that has undue haste & pressure & tends to pull one or both of you out of a thoughtful & deliberate POJA type of cadence, walking carefully through the "seasons of life" with eyes wide open --- have you really "guarded your heart"?

I hope this helps,
High Flight