Just talked to Dr. Harley on the Radio and boy was it discouraging!<BR>I told him I was married to a traveling man and wanted advise on ways to meet the basic needs when we were separated. Think about it the needs of affection, sex, conversation, recreation,domestic support and family committment are all unmet by and for either spouse when the traveling spouse is on the road. A sure formula for marital dissatisfaction! <BR>He said that when he first began his career as a counselor it was with pilots and flight attendents and he never came up with a good solution to the problems being separated causes! His advise was to talk to my H about changing careers! Talk a bout a major lifestyle change! The basic need involving financial security (one of our strongest areas) would take a severe blow!<P>I would love to hear advise from you guys on ways to keep myself in the mind and heart of my H when he is away from home. I don't want a repeat performance of what I have been going through for the last 7 months, but don't want my H to have to redirect his whole career choice either. There has to be another solution! <P>Besides, all the pilots, truck drivers and traveling salesmen cannot quit their jobs to prevent the possibilities of affairs. And it is unfair to expect that. There has to be another solution!<P>Help!

This is where I get skeptical about the Harley stuff -- it's so darn rigid. People can't always live in the nice little box that Harley puts forth. Couples can't live up to POJA when only one wants to. So what is Harley saying: My way or no way?<P>There are as many different kinds of marriages as there are couples. I'm not sure any one way fits all of them.<P>Yes, there's a lot of validity to what I've read in the Harley books, and on this site, in the practice of the methods by people here.<P>But then there's the failures, the divorces, the affairs where Plan A doesn't work, Plan B doesn't work. There's airheart, who's living proof of the discouraging paragraph in HNHN that states that a man who has an affair of the heart will always be in love with the OP -- a very discouraging proposition for the betrayed spouse. I'd rather live alone and fill my house with dogs who love me than be "second best" to my H.<P>This is not to say that there's nothing here of value, but I think it's a mistake to take any one approach as a "one size fits all" solution.

Pilot's wife<BR>I don't have any advice. I just wanted to tell you that things don't always work "by the book".<BR>My H spent years working out of town. Sometimes for 6 weeks at a time. There was no infidelity during that time. <BR>His affair occurred after he started working closer to home. It was a major lifestyle change. He had more time on his hands and I still had the same responsibilities I had always had. So I didn't have time to play with him like the OW did.<BR>Being close to home is not necessarily a good thing in all cases.<BR>Hope this helps a little. You can see that the answer is not always the same in every case.

Hi Pilot's Wife,<P> My H was airforce for 11yrs. travelled all over the world and was away a month at a time. His affair did not start till after we were settled , there was no travelling and midlife hit big time. I almost think the travelling and adventures kept him from feeling so restless. I think it is very unrealistic for your H to have to change careers, I think he has to want NOT to have an affair and guard against the temptations....it's one thing to get into one blindly the first time but I think a person would know the second time when the danger is present. What does your H think of this? What are his suggestions? Lu

He has been positive about the little things I have done like putting cards in his bag, and the calendar. I gave him a Jiminy Cricket doll to keep in his bag too. <BR>Have not really asked his advise on what else to do for our case in particular, coz he has already said he can not promise that it would not happen again if he became very unhappy again. I only asked him to do his utmost to let me address his unhappinesses as they come and to divorce me before going to another woman. He seemed to accept that. <P>What I want is ideas to tell wives of other traveling men on how to prevent affairs. Things that would be of specific help to those whose spouses are gone for extended lengths of time. How to delay need gratificaion until spouse is home. How to encourage the hubby to keep his zipper up when he is away! Those kinds of things.<P>What can be substituted for conversation, companionship,sex, affection, recreation etc. when the couple is separated that will not threaten the marriage or that will strenghten the marriage. Ideas!

Pilots wife,<P>I did somthing kinda creative to keep me in the H's mind (I'm the one who is usually on the road) I had a girlfriend take a whole roll of film of me in some really cute lingere. I took pictures with things he loved. Perhaps you have a few model planes hanging around or his underwater basketweaving trophys..you get the picture lol. I put them in places that he has to go to but not so frequent as to every day. I put one in his wallet with a pretty sexy photo...it fell out when he went to a lunch meeting, but he thought it hilarious. Be creative...put somthing in a day planner on the same day of the month for each month that has significance.<BR>ruby

Pilot's wife:<P>First off, Dr. Harley's radio format isn't (IMO) the best way to get complete advice for your situation. I'd suggest that you call Steve Harley and talk with him in a session or two.<P>But there is no doubt that this is a tough situation. It is hard to be married to someone who's on the road all the time. And a change of careers is a perfectly valid solution.<P>But there are others. That's what the POJA and the rule of honesty is about.<P>I'll give you some other ideas. You could travel with your husband. You could do this all the time, once every couple of weeks, or once every couple of months. You could discuss having long phone conversations with your husband every evening that he's away (even phone sex...). You and your husband have to brainstorm for solutions, and come up with one that fits for both of you.<P>As an aside, many people who are on the road all the time are single. For exactly this reason. <P><BR>D&C:<P>You seem to take issue with Harley's stuff---and I feel as though you can't see the forest for the trees. It's not that it's "His way or the highway". But if you don't use these "principles" in a marriage, you end up in a less than desirable relationship. That's certainly true in your case---your husband refuses to consider your feelings in all his actions (not using the POJA), and you resent that. Harley's principles say "do thoughtless things---create resentment, lose love". Don't fill emotional needs, create resentment, lose love. It's pretty simple. And his principles provide a framework for learning to eliminate these undesirable behaviors and building love in a marriage. <P>You point out airheart and that objectionable passage in HNHN. But you're taking a "single sample" by saying that Andy isn't in love with his wife. In a year, he may (and probably will) be MADLY in love with his wife. And that's (IMO) worth the wait and effort. And I have a house full of dogs that love me, and it's no picnic either... <P>Another thing. If you do Plan A and Plan B "correctly", you will be successful. That doesn't mean that your marriage is necessarily saved, or that your spouses affair is over. It means that you have gone through a process in which you've given your marriage the best shot for success. A perfectly valid endpoint is for you to divorce when YOU no longer love your spouse. It's sad, but using these techniques (under proper supervision) will speed your recovery from that traumatic event than a lot of lovebusting and a quick divorce (again, my opinion).

Hello all,<P>As I was checking out the upgrade to the forum, I notice this thread and just wanted to add a quick note. BTW, we are still working out some kinks in the system.<P>Pilot's wife,<P>I didn't hear your conversation with Dr. Harley. However, I think it is important to understand that he was giving advise to a woman whose husband had an affair. I don't believe that he was saying pilots can't have a successful marriage. Because they can. It's just that, in your case, your husband will have to take some extraordinary measures to rebuild trust in your marriage. These measures will make continuing his career very difficult...but not impossible.<P>Just a couple of cents worth...

Wow, I kinda feel important! <BR>Seriously...<BR> Thanks for noticing the thread Steve and for your impressions. I am sure you are right about the other Dr. H's point of view. <BR> I seriously do want to address this issue as I really do plan to write a guide book for wives of traveling men. With the affair rates as high as 50% in the general population, it can only be assumed that they may be as high as 70 or even 80% in an industry in which someone is away from home a lot. (Have looked and looked for actual statistics about this and have not even found statistics of the divorce rate in the aviation industry! Would accept any leads you guys could give me!)<P>DC...WasStubborn....Lu..... and K<BR>Thank you for your imputs and advise. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer me. Ruby, I have done the picture thing, made him a fiesty calendar,put undies in his flight bag and one "special heavy breathing" type phone call, We talk every nite he is in the states, but when he is over seas phone calls are expensive and we try to refrain from calling. He has also icq'd me from an internet cafe in Korea which was a lot of fun Guess it will be a laptop computer for him next.<BR>I am running out of ideas now tho and all this stuff seems so superficial and shallow in some ways. I mean, do you really think he will want a fiesty calendar of me when I am 60 years old? And how many times will heavy breathing do the trick?<BR>DC.<BR>You definately have a point about the rule of honesty and the POJA. I just don't feel too confident yet about having that much trust of the H. Trust the OW not to contact him, more than I trust him not to contact her!<P>Thanks again guys!

K:<P>I think you misunderstand. I'm not throwing ALL of it out, but I'm saying that these principles are not a Holy Book either. One problem is that in situations like mine, where one partner (me) is willing to live by these principles, and the other one (H) calls it "psychobabble" and doesn't want to deal with it, Harley's books shake their head and say, well, then, you're just headed for trouble.<P>As I've said in Hummingbird's thread, sure, it would be wonderful if our spouses would be more considerate, and would be what we want them to be. But they're not. And I frankly refuse to believe that just because I can't get my H to toe the Harley line, that I can't have a good marriage. I may have to do all the work, or most of it, but I'm don't think I should have to "give up on happiness" because I can't do these techniques with my H.<P>Yes, sure, airheart may find himself madly in love with his wife in a year. But based on what I've read, he never did before, so why is he likely to now? And this is withdrawal from his SECOND affair.<P>In my case, as long as PSBFH is not in my face, I'm OK. My marriage is not perfect, but it's better than it was a year ago. H responds to what I do, and that's OK. There's this one blind spot he has, and it's a sore spot for me, and that's just where we are. I do what I can about the situation. <P>I was talking with my therapist about "total honesty" this evening; not specifically about this site (she has no Internet connection), but about "total honesty" in general. She feels that there are things a spouse doesn't "need" to know. For example, my spouse seems to feel threatened by male friends I had 10 years ago, with whom I'm no longer in touch (or who call me once every four years). PSBFH is part of his "revenge", I think. Do I need to tell him about my "near-affair" in 1989, the one that made me change jobs? I think not. However, if I was tempted AGAIN, I would tell him about my needs not being met, but not about the temptation.<P>Does my H need to know when I think a particular actor is really hot? I think not. <P>My point is that there's honesty and there's honesty. He now knows how I feel about PSBFH. What he does with that knowledge is his business. But there some things that are only hurtful to know, and things that happened 10 years ago are among them.<P>If you've been able to use these methods successfully, and have your wife use them too, well, more power to you. My H is in tractable, so I have to do what I can do on my own, without his help.

Beth - There is a lot of good stuff in the Harley books and articles. I don't agree with everything Steve says, but I like his basic perspective, which is that an intimate relationship (can't really avoid marriage if you want to push the envelope on this!) is really about meeting each other's needs. This isn't necessarily the tack all couples counselors take. Ours, for example, is much more into appreciating each other's perspective, learning to communicate, etc., etc. We have even done counseling with another couple who were basically Jungians. Their idea was that the partners in a relationship tend to bring out each other's negative archetypes. Thus, for me, my W represented the "terrible mother." There is much truth in these other approaches, but they tend to take a long time to resolve. Dr. H. tells you want you need to do NOW and I'm inclined to agree. Unfortunately, it's hard to change dead horses in midstream. But I'm in basic agreement with this. An intimate heterosexual relationship really IS based on lovemaking, on erotic intimacy. Nice to think love is something metaphysical and churchy -- NOT! So, if you and your partner are forced by circumstances to be apart for long periods of time (as you seem to be) then, yeah, I think it IS incumbent upon you to figure out how to change this situation. And if this requires a career change on the part of your H, then so be it! (If he's a pilot, couln't he get a job with a domestic airline that allows the two of you to be together more often?) R. & B.,<P>--Wex

My H used to travel a lot. We've talked about why our marriage was actually better when he travelled. The main reason is that it was before we had kids. But we realized that when he was travelling we didn't need a therapist or a book to tell us to focus on each other and our relationship. When he was home, we were VERY focused!!! And I had plenty of time when he was gone to focus on my job, friends, errands, whatever. I took care of all the mundane tasks of life while he was gone (including all of his tasks -- picking up his dry cleaning, getting his car repaired, etc). When he was home, it was just fun. After he stopped travelling so much, it seems like the mundane tasks of life took over our lives!!! We forgot to take time just for us. I also forgot to have a life outside of work and family, which made me cranky. <P>When he was gone, we talked on the phone a lot. So much so that his company complained about the phone bills -- and he threatened to quit if they didn't pay for him to call home every day. We talked for hours!!! One suggestion -- don't just talk about daily details (took the dog to the vet today). Get a glass of wine, get comfortable, and just chat. This is what creates intimacy. <P>This changed after we had kids. He didn't travel quite so much, so it didn't seem as important to keep in touch when he was gone. And his affair started on a business trip. <P>A suggestion for him -- if he can take up a hobby he can do wherever he is, it will keep him from getting bored and looking for 'entertainment'. For example, if he gets into physical fitness and finds a place to work out everywhere he travels, this will fill his hours instead of bars and drinking. <P>A suggestion for you -- travel with him sometimes if you can. Simply having the experience of sharing a different city with you for a weekend will create memories and make you a part of that 'other' life he has.<P>I agree with Steve H. It's not that every pilot is doomed to have an affair. But since your H has already shown himself to be vulnerable, he is a good candidate for a career change.

I traveled heavily the last 3 yrs, especially last year. This was inconjunction with w working afternoon shifts part-time which include every other weekend. She would work a few days in a row and thenbe off and I would take off for a few days getting back for the weekend and she would have to work.<P>At the beginning of the year, my company was purchased and my territory changed so I do almost no overnites.<P>My w was the one that had the affair. I never even went out other than to dinner and then it was back to the hotel. Finding some "entertainment" never entered my mind.<P>Unfortuneately, our marriage had problems I didn't recognize and w now has left me. So I guess its not always the traveling person you have to worry about. In fact I just remembered a co-worker of mine in Denver had the same thing happen to him.

Pilot's wife, I just had to reply to your question about pilots and affairs. My father was an airline pilot for 32 years until retirement. My parents have been married for 48 years. Looking back, as a child I saw my mother clean the house before my dad came home from every flight, spend 3 or 4 hours with him, behind locked bedroom doors no matter what time of day he arrived home, and every Saturday am for a few hours. My mother always cooked his favorite meals, supported him in his business adventures and made it special for all of us when Dad was home. She always included an interesting book in his suitcase, did all of his packing, and set up times to talk to him while he was out on a flight.Some years were not easy for us, it was very difficult for her when he was gone, (they had 10 children) and they had many differences of opinion on money. But looking back as I now deal with my own marital problems (husband's affair, 24 yrs of marriage, Plan B), I appreciate much more how much time she made for him, and how much she gave of herself. Did my father ever have an affair? Some of my siblings think so, but our parents say no. Just seeing them so happy now that all of us are grown is amazing. Hang in there marriage is like a job and it takes a ton of work.<BR>

Was surprized to see this pop back up to the top! Thank you for your imput. Today is particularly lonely for me as it is our anniversary and I have not heard anything from H yet. It is midnite (tonite) in Korea, so maybe he will icq me in about 7 or 8 hours. <BR> <BR>I really appreciate all your thoughts on my situation. Thanks<P>Beth