Hi LG and Mr. W. thanks for tuning in.

Yeah, Mr. W... 3 A's each of a different nature. a ONS while we were engaged, an EA about 5-6 yrs. ago... and a PA. As LG stated... a lot of history from her childhood.

I've kept strong since the conversation... she has come to me a couple of times for hugs... but I don't put much stock into that. I clearly stated that I expect our finances to be left untouched until the house sells and we decide how to split it... giving the indication that I am going through with this. I am certain she won't touh anything. When her Mom left her Dad, she left him with everything... my W knows that I would be fair to a fault and so will she.

Today I talked on the phone briefly with her. We were both feeling down... I told her my reason was trying to decide when and what to tell the kids.

I told her... just to be clear that this separation is not what I want for us... I love her, however, etc... the same as before.

She said that she does love me deeply and doesn't want me to be hurt anymore. She doesn't know how to describe how she is feeling. I told her I would be willing to listen... not say anything... just listen... tonight... and try and understand.

I said that my needs are simple right now... I am not looking to measure how many times we have SF, etc.. What I want is movement forward, a plan, and hope. If she were to tell me that she doesn't know why, but there is something wrong inside that she has to sort out and can't be intimate, I can live with that for now as long as she is also telling me what she is going to do to try and sort it out... IC, etc.

She said we can talk... hopefully tonight. I just got home from a double shift... the kids are both at sleepovers... and my W was in the bath... gave me a few minutes to come and write here. In another life... I would never dream of coming here to type in that sich... the bath sounds a lot more appealing... I can still dream.

Let me know if this sounds like I am caving on boundaries... I don't believe I am.

Shaden

to the others... I'll respond later. thanks for your input. I just don't have much time tonight.

Shaden

Not just a a cursory plan

You need a detailed plan.

A very straightforward Plan for the next few days to create a solid plan, through POJA, that will perhaps DELAY the moving out process

THEN...instead of "listening"...watch her actions, heck, insist of actions (while practicing POJA)

I'm short on time and tired myself.

I say don't cave all at once over words.

Mr. Wondering

You need a plan

I'm back again.

Now she's on the phone with her sister... not sure if there will be any talk tonight because we both work early tomorrow.

I agree, Mr. W.

I have stayed on words and false hope this long. I need to spend some more time to really think about what I want and need... but those needs can be a moving target as we progress.

What I mostly need now is to hear and see that she does want improvement in herself and in her life and will decide on a plan to get there. I get that she may be "stuck" with intimacy and afraid... that it is all coming to a head for her and maybe she is lost and dead inside. But she has had a long time to sit and wait for something... nothing to happen. She now needs help and needs to choose help.

She acknowledged today that I have treated her like a queen... she can't lay any blame on me for this... she just doesn't know why or what she is feeling.

She says she is not thinking at all about moving on to be happy with someone else... she is for now just wanting to see that she can be happy and make it on her own... but she also doesn't want to hurt me or the kids.

I read some of the thread about dependence and interdependence. I believe she is afraid of abandonment and of being vulnerable... because she was always hurt by men. Now that I am growing myself and not just expecting the surface marriage... this is scaring her. She can't hide her real self anymore.

We'll see what happens.

Shaden

Shaden,
I just happened to happen upon MB tonight and here you are! I thought you had retired due to negativism... ?
I'm sorry that Mrs. Shaden hasn't started meeting your ENs. It does sound like she still doesn't understand that she is really maintaining the marriage conditions that were and always will be vulnerable to affair activities. She refuses to make the marriage affair proof, so instead she is keeping it affair ready.
I'm sorry your sitch hasn't improved much. I think kicking her out/asking her to choose was SECONDARY to dragging her to the phone to speak with Harley.
She needs to understand (not from you) that what she is doing won't work for you OR FOR ANYONE ELSE EITHER.

Cheers, friend,
Heartsore

Off the top of my head

and it may be a CRAZY idea

I'm sure there are professionals out there that can actually give professional advice on the subject.

Enough caveats


Why not a trial separation.

An aparment you both use like 3 nights a week with Saturdays being family night.

Then wife get to "find herself" within a framework where you are at least meeting SOME of each others emotional needs.

As long as the plan includes a lot of individual counseling. 15 hours of together time...somehow.

Could work...though budgets are limited...but divorce is ALWAYS more expensive so ANYTHING compared to divorce seems reasonable.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W.

Your creative ideas are interesting. I'm not sure yet if I am viewing this impending separation as permanent or still hope for reconciliation.

We did talk for a while on Sunday. I mostly listened... shared some of how I was feeling, but I think I did well to not become defensive, angry, or judgemental.

Rprynne, I think you are on the right track on what is going on.

My W discussed our past... the fact that as a teenager she was looking to escape her childhood and marry into a situation that would solve all her problems. She saw me as the best candidate at the time (not her words... my thoughts now).

Going into marriage young (her - 20, me 22), we had no clue about building relationships. It was a surface marriage. I was always extremely busy as a teenager with work, sports, music, church, etc... and that continued into marriage. I wasn't a great communicator (and still am not), and I saw her happy every night on the phone for an hour or more with her Mom or sister. I figured at the time that my role was different, she was getting her needs met for conversation with her family. I would often be around while she was talking and would hear what was being said... for her to tell me again seemed ridiculous. Now, I know better... how important conversation is to her.

She briefly discussed wanting a career and a purpose. I have always encouraged this... said we would do whatever it took... but she could never decide what she wanted to do. She felt responsible and trapped because of the kids.

She felt that having kids was her biggest need. But just felt drained after. I think it is the idea of one more thing will make her happy. She cannot seem to find it inside.

She talked about loving me and caring for me "deeply"... that is why she has held on this long. We discussed briefly about the A... she admits how terribly wrong and hurtful it was... but sees it as a symptom of all her other problems... not that she was looking for someone better than me.

She talked about her trying to meet everyone's needs and failing to meet her own... or mine. She knows she has done a terrible job throughout our marriage in trying to meet my needs. I spoke about how I felt angry and hurt that she is being pulled in so many directions... by her Mom, her sisters, the kids, her work, etc...that I am the one pulling least, but yet it is me who she is running from.

This is the coles notes version of the conversation. I again told her that separation is not what I want, but cannot live in a marriage that is without love or progressing towards that. We talked about how the kids will be. I said that what I need now in order to stay with her is a plan to get help and action from her.

No concrete decisions were made... however, I believe it is still her intention to carry on with separation. We ended the discussion, believe it or not, with SF... the first time in weeks. I'm not sure if that was a mistake... it was definately not performed in a way that I was looking needy and desperate. I joked about the fact that this could be our last time. But the positive could be a tiny thread of intimacy drawing her back.

Since then, there has been some casual conversation about separating. She asked me last night... very seriously... if I was seeing someone else. She is finding it hard to believe how calmly I am accepting the thought of separation. She said that she is not trying to doubt the increased strength that I've received...but it all seems strange to her.

She asked me not to start dating an old girlfriend (who is still single)... she doesn't want her around the kids because she is "messed up". I managed to avoid saying my rebuttal of "I seem to be a magnet for people like that". I said that I couldn't see myself dating her or anyone for a while, but that would be my decision.

I believe that I am moving towards separation myself. The idea of removing myself from this situation is starting to sound appealing... although, she seems to be move giving and loving since we started discussing separation. She moved over beside me on the couch... has initiated hugs... and initiated the SF. she still tells me she loves me. It all just seems so unreal.

I did tell her that if we do separate, that I do not intend to be friends. I want her as my W... all or nothing.

We haven't broached the huge issue yet... custody. That's my next one. I think she is assuming she has primary custody. I work a whole lot more and she has her Mom as fulltime help... so it does make practical sense...but I'm not ready to give up this right.

Have to go to work. I'm on a stretch of 12 days straight with several of them being double shifts. It keeps my mind off of what is going on atleast. And the idea of 15 hours a week together in the past hasn't helped... I have spent a lot of time with my W the last few years (following her EA), but it has not seemed to help draw us closer.

Shaden

HS

thanks for dropping by. sorry to hear that your sich is no better than a couple of months ago.

I regret all of my advice to be patient and hold on. I seem to have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to relationships.

I have never made any caveats on your thread about my words because most of them were more about feelings rather than actions and plans. If you feel there is a need, let me know and I'll go back and add it in.

Mr. W. your caveats made me laugh. I don't believe they will be needed in my sich, but you never know.

Shaden

One last thing... I brought up about her going on MB again... I said that she has nothing to lose. She can always turn you all off if she doesn't want to be here.

She said she would think about it... which generally means no. But pray for her... maybe she will come here and get some help.

Shaden

Shaden:

Sometimes all you need is a plan.

Drifting begets complacency.

A plan denotes action and purpose.

Even your W can respect that.

You have laid down a boundary that she needs not cross. But she knows it is there and understands your resolve in regards to it. Something she never understood before.

And that is positive in its own right.

So whats next?

Break the comfort zone.

Take her with you.

She has serious attachment issues in regards to men.

But she can "Drift" into an A or Relationship with another man because, she gets a EN met, but truly does not understand the consequences. Nor how to describe that EN to you.

Kids at 9 & 11 can drain an awful amount of emotion from a M. And that's one of the things that is draining her very shallow emotional pool. (And not the negative of shallow... Because of her childhood, she has never learned real emotional depth. My DW says I never had it until after Dday.)

One night of conversation with her, with her knowledge that everything is on the line, resulted in you both getting more connected.

Then you say that 15 hours a week is difficult.

But I believe that it may be all you need.

She needs to learn POJA and PORH to truly re-engage into this M. But that can come.

Start planning the time together. Get the kids to sleep and just be with one another. Talk. About anything. And once a week, go to something difficult. Get more comfortable with each other.

And no Marriage is perfect. We can strive for that, but you know that the minimum you have is unacceptable. Now you have to find out and create what is acceptable.

LG

Hmm. I think LG is onto something here.

LG... a hole in one... maybe your golf game is lousy, but you're right on this time. (Although, I think I remember reading that your golf game is fine... it was just you who was lousy... at the time... and you consider yourself a golfer... am I right with this one?... just wanted to show that I do read sometimes.)

Today while at work, I was thinking about the fact that I have sat down many times to think about my own personal mission statement and never completed it.

I need to know who and what I want to be.

If being a fantastic father is one of the primary concerns, then holding a family together for the kids could be worthwhile, depending on the state of the relationships. But I also don't want my kids to learn that it is ok to accept mediocrity and lack of intimacy. They need to know what a real relationship is about as well.

I'm off topic. My point is that I will put some thoughts down as to my future and direction and share this with my W. Possibly she will want to be a part of that future... and possibly not.

Rebuilding self esteem is a tough climb. Divorce and separation was never really a part of my vocabulary or paradigm growing up. This has hit me hard as to who and what I intended to be. I always held being a loving father and husband as very important. It feels like I have failed. I tell myself that really it is my W who has failed me and her family... by not living up to her promises... but it doesn't change how I feel.

The good news is that these feelings are far less controlling, strong, and damaging to me as they were a year ago. I don't obsess any more and I don't allow myself to shoulder all of the blame like I used to.

Shaden

How do you know if one has grown stronger and tougher emotionally... or just lost or changed their feeling of love?

The thought of separation absolutley does not scare me anymore. It makes me sad thinking about how the kids will be affected. It makes me disappointed that my W might choose to be separate rather than work towards a great relationship. It makes me feel a tiny bit of failure in my life. But the idea of separation is even a little intriguing. Why is that?

I don't want to separate... I still believe in the vows I made... in "for better or for worse"... in the fact that a good marriage unit is far better for the children. But the possibilities of a different life is starting to look refreshing.

I was given a promotion at work yesterday... from Manager in Training to Manager.

Our banker met with me to tell me there is an option for us to keep our home.

But with all of these positives... the idea of separation keeps coming back with a stronger hold each time.

My W is away this weekend with her Mom and sisters for a shopping trip in Fargo, ND. She chose to go on her birthday... chose the important people in her life with whom to celebrate her birthday.

I expect her to come home with an answer as to what she wants to do.

She did call an IC to make an appointment... a positive step? For her, it is. Even though it was something we discussed which I required to stay in the marriage, it does not mean she will stay... she figures she needs the help regardless.

She says she loves me and cares for me deeply... doesn't want to hurt me. I believe she is waiting/hoping for me to make the decision and be the "bad guy".

I believe in faith and patience. God does not get in our face and demand that we love him or worship him. He waits... patiently... and loves.

I don't need to be perceived as strong by her... I just need to know that I am strong.

...some ramblings for the day.

Shaden

Often it takes many times hearing or saying an idea before it actually takes hold.

I told myself many times that my W's Affairs and the fact that she could not show love was not about me... and never quite believed it... until now.

I feel at peace... that I have not done anything to hurt my marriage... that I have been a good husband, father, and man.

I now understand and believe that her choices and inability to show love is about her.

She is not leaving me... she is searching for herself.

Do I think this is the right thing for her and our family... not for one second.

But I get it now. I cannot do anything that will bring her happiness. She has to choose that for herself.

When I look back over our life together, she has always been searching for the next thing to bring her happiness... She thought that a marriage would do that... then having kids... a house... a bigger house... breast implants and a tummy tuck... a dog... a new job... another new job... and another new job... a new church... back to the same church... new furniture... and the list goes on. Now, she believes that a new life, without me, will finally bring her happiness. She believes she is hurting me by staying in the marriage... and cannot say why she is leaving or cannot show me love... but she knows that she should leave.

She is finally going to an IC appointment tomorrow... maybe this will bring the miracle I am praying for.

I had opened the "cage door" a while ago... but I was still standing in front of the door blocking the exit. Now, I have moved aside. I've offered to love her and work at the marriage if she will... or to separate. It is her choice. She will be choosing very soon... and all indications show that she will choose to separate.

I have faith, but I don't know how that faith will be revealed or answered.

She says she loves me and that I have treated her like a queen. I have done the best I can. I had resisted the separation because I viewed it as my failure to be the husband I needed to be. This is her failure not mine. I wil continue to love her and wish the best for her.

Please pray for her that she will find what she is looking for. Pray for my children that they will not be hurt beyond healing through this. And pray for our family that a miracle may keep it intact.

Thank you all for your support, wisdom, 2x4s and friendship up to this point. I realize that I have not been on much lately and have not "given" back to the forum by offering advice to others lately... but I wasn't in a position where I felt I could help. Maybe in the future I will be able to.

Shaden