Dear FH, I have been traveling quite a bit lately and have not kept up with most threads. I read yesterday that you have decided to leave this forum. I hope and pray that this is not true. I would be heartbroken if you left. You are such a blessing to me and many others here.

So many here have benefitted from your tireless defense of Christianity. I have learned more from you than any other on this forum in all the years I have been here. I am only ashamed that you mostly took the bullets alone and can understand if you are simply worn out.

If you are leaving, please consider coming back after a break. And if you do leave, please know that I am deeply grateful to you for your courage and for all I have learned from you. You are a true blessing, FH, and I am blessed to know you.

Forever:

Tell me this isn't so...

I DOUBLE DITTO MEL!!

FH,

Please don't leave.

~ Marsh

FH,

I also appreciate and support your stance on Christianity and marriage. Please continue to support us like minded people with your words of wisdom. Thanks for your posts on my threads.

ForeverHers:

Hang around.

My soul will probably rot in he!! anyway.

But I know that reading your threads can get me thinking that maybe if I start paying attention that I can prevent that.

5 years?

How many do you REALLY think you have helped around here in that time?

Hundreds/Thousands?

I think so.

LG, we already know where you are going, heathen boy! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Melody, Mimi, Marshmellow, Eph525 - yes, it is true. After almost 5 years and thousands of posts, I guess I'm just tired and don't think there's much need for an old fogey around here anymore.

I don't know how to say it exactly, but the system is "different" than it once was. Even the MB Reunion Board has been abandoned by virtually all of the former "old timers of MB," including me (I stopped posting there a long time ago and only checked in once in a while).

The Recovery Forum gets almost no utilization anymore, and it used to be a haven for those entering, or in, recovery to get help from folks who have been through "the fire" and to avoid the distraction of the raw emotions flooding the JFO and GQ II forums, especially early in their recovery efforts. There was once a time when I posted almost exclusively on the Recovery Forum, but now the GQ II forum seems to have taken over and it's very difficult to have a coherent thread, much less a thread dedicated to helping someone. It almost seems to be exlusively those who are not yet even in recovery and who are still dealing with active affairs. And the emotions run almost as high as on the JFO forum.

Yes, there are still a lot of people hurting from infidelity, and that sadly will never end. But there are a lot of other people who have stepped up to do a lot of posting and one more old voice really isn't needed. While it is gratifying to see so many trying to help others, it seems that there is almost a deification of the "MB method" as the only thing that is needed. That may be true for some, but it seems a bit odd when some folks claim a belief in God and Jesus but "don't want to bring their Lord into the discussion." I know I'm probably not saying that the right way, but it's very puzzling to me anyway since I AM a Christian and God IS my Lord.


I think the "problem" may actually lie with me, as Pep pointed out, that I don't "see" how others may interpret things that I say and this latest fiasco on Athanasius' "Confession" thread did, in my opinion a great disservice to God. The anger tone and level was very high and I just don't want to be a party to that. It's one thing when unbelievers "go off" about God, it's another thing when believers quarrel and "protect turf."

I have to struggle sometimes to keep my own emotions in check when that is going on and to remember that we are to love God with all our mind as well as with our heart.

Even when I went so far as to say that God tells us that it's okay to be angry (righteous anger about sin) but not to respond in a sinful way I got challenged to provide "Chapter and Verse" from the Scripture as if it were my "misguided opinion." Even after providing that requested "citation" there was no follow up to it or even acknowledging it, just more direct attacks because people were feeling "emotionally attacked" by someone who simply said "what does the bible say about it?" I got accused of "threadjacking," when in my opinion the thread was "jacked by those who went on the attack."

That I can be attacked doesn't seem to register with them that it's not really me they are attacking, it is the Lord and His Scripture in as much as I try very hard to base my discussions and advice ON the Word of God and not just my "opinion." I attempted to discuss the differences in beliefs, with the Scripture as the "arbiter," as the author of the thread had set as the scope of the discussion, but it's not the first time that people have rejected the Scripture in favor of their beliefs. I guess I'm just a bit too naive, but I think that anyone who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior might just want to "be sure of what they believe" by not only reading material that supports their beliefs, but material that may oppose those beliefs. When that is done with an attitude of openness and honesty of inquiry either our beliefs are borne out or God reveals to us that perhaps we were in error or misunderstanding because we still see things through a "fallen flesh" that is inclined toward things that are "against God." That is what the apostle Paul told us about as he struggled with the flesh.

That's what Sanctification is all about, our becoming conformed more and more to the likeness of Christ. But just as the writer of Hebrews got "exasperated" with the people because they were still on "milk" instead of "solid food," the process of Sanctification takes a willingness to learn and not just accept what other fallable men have to say without examining it closely.

It clearly seems to me I'm "too fundamental" in my beliefs for the majority of folks and to remain would likely result in more and more attacks, or use of the "ignore" button (which btw I have never used on anyone as I consider it the height of disrespect and rudeness that reflects back upon the user more than the intended target). Either way, it is potentially distracting to others who are in need of help.

So where I sit today is simply tired of the "fight" and unwilling to be a "lightning rod" anymore. I remain burdened for all who have been hurt by infidelity, but especially so for those who's faith is under tremendous attack, even to the point of doubting God.

It may well be that God has something else in mind for me to become involved in and that this "phase" of my instruction by God is coming to a close because that is what God intended. As I said after my first year in recovery, I never thought that I might have anything to say that might help someone else, but God proved me wrong in that thought. I actually have been of help to a few, and ONE is more than enough, the rest are a wonderful bonus.

Sometimes we just have to leave things in God's hands and NOT participate. I remember well the discussions I had with FGG, and it came to the point where I had to stop posting for the good of all during his very difficult time. It is very gratifying to see that God isn't "though with him or his ex-wife yet." And it's even more gratifying to know that I had nothing to with it. God is quite capable without me, "thank you very much."

For everything there is a season.....

I feel the leaves falling and there's a chill in the air.

But thank you again for your very kind words, they are very much appreciated and I promise you that I will think on them as I seek the Lord's will in this matter. If God wants me stay, He will make that known to me. But I really am weary of it all and would probably be gone already if it weren't for a burden for a few that I have been "working with" over the past few months. I have stopped all other posting to others because I KNOW that God doesn't need me, but I also know that God can use me as He sees fit, so I promise each of you that I shall seek the Lord and His will before acting.

God bless.

FH, this is a tragic loss for this forum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I understand your frustration, though, when emotional, erractic responses get in the way of a civil discourse. I hope you come back some day, FH; you will be sorely missed by so many here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You are a brave and true warrior for Jesus Christ, FH!

FH, just taking one last opportunity to thank you. You got me through me rawest moments here.

FH -

I will sorely miss you on these forums, as will many others. You were one the key posters that really helped me get grounded in my faith in Christ when I first showed up here.

Your scriptual knowledge and understanding, along with your unwavering belief and faith, have helped many here.

As you enter the next season of your life, I wish you and Mrs FH much love and happiness together. I am sure the Lord will continue to use you to great effect, even if it's somewhere other than MB.

Dear ForeverHers,

I rarely visit the boards or keep up with threads anymore (yesterday was the 1st in a long time I’ve actually read and post some!) and therefore I don’t really know what has been happening lately on this forum and with you. But I for one have followed most of your posts in the past (when I was still active on this forum) and I recall how you’ve been unnecessarily attacked many times in the past (and how the Christian faith has been attacked) and therefore I can perfectly understand your frustration. But in spite of that you’ve been a blessing to MANY (including me) on these boards and therefore I do hope you will never leave these board totally behind since there will always be someone who will benefit and learn from your tremendous insight, wisdom and faith in Christ. I for one have also learned more from you than any other on this forum and have the greatest respect for you. I also want to use this opportunity to thank you for all the help, advice and time you’ve extended to me in the past. Also for your continuous prayers to me and my husband (as you’ve posted on my “update” thread last week).

God Bless,
Suzet

So many here have benefitted from your tireless defense of Christianity. I have learned more from you than any other on this forum in all the years I have been here. I am only ashamed that you mostly took the bullets alone and can understand if you are simply worn out.

I guess that I have sorely been under the wrong impression here that the definition of Christianity was the belief in Christ as the Savior

I never really gave much thought that posting about personal Catholic based beliefs and practices resulted in the need for others to defend Christianity

This by no way implies that I would want
or
would be happy that anyone left these forums all because of DIFFERING beliefs

a journey in faith takes many different paths....

are you really saying that posting here about Catholic practices, choices, and beliefs requires others to have to defend Christianity,....



u n b e l i e v a b l e at best

ARK^^

ark, I have no idea what you are talking about, so I can't answer this. I suspect this has something to do with the other thread, which I didn't follow. Nor do I want to turn this into a debate over here, if you don't mind.

Forever Hers,

I wish you and your family the absolute best life has to offer. We've had many good talks. Things won't be the same without you but, if you feel it's time to go, then I hope you do what's best for you.

Mys

Hello ForeverHers,

My one month anniversary for registering with MB will be tomorrow, Feb. 14. Nearly everyone who has posted on Mel's thread to you has directly changed my life and our marriage in the past 4 weeks by posting on my threads.

ForeverHers, although you may not have helped me directly, you have indirectly by helping those above.
I have not followed your challenges, but I read with interest all the ways you mentioned that these forums have changed. If you feel God is telling you to go, I just want to say THANK YOU for all you've done to focus on Christian principles that have helped all of us one way or another.

Being new, I have a different perspective than the veterans who have posted here and I hesitate to say anything because when I leave for work in a few minutes, I can only read and not post until tonight. But since you FH may be withdrawing, I was hoping to share my perspective to add to your prayer list regarding your status of exhaustion, which I can understand after 5 years.

I hesitate to transfer over to the recovery boards for my needs as I'm not sure that the transition (as you've described it) will have the same number of responders which it obviously does not compared to 4-5 years ago.

How can the recovery board be restored to its original purpose as you've seen it? Can the moderators help? Can it be renamed? Should the descriptions be more specific? Or are there just less people recovering and willing to help? Above all, how can more emphasis be place on Christian values over emotional entanglement?

I have always been a "find a problem, find a way to fix it" kind of person. That's how I found MB. What do you think needs to happen, FH to create (or recreate) what needs to be changed in order to meet the needs of our 'family' in our MB community (as Chrisner calls it "Betrayedville")?

Thank you for listening and I will be praying for your decision, too. (I did take 2 weeks off from the boards to seek God directly so I do know about that part of your challenge.)

Ace

ark^^ - your "impression" is correct, imho. ALL that is needed to be a Christian is to accept Jesus Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior, surrendering our life to Him. That is precisely why I told Athanasius that in my opinion, from what he stated regarding his own faith in Christ, he is a Christian. It IS Faith Alone and not works of any kind that imputes Christ's saving work to each of us so that we are Justified before God because of what Christ did for us, not what because of what we have done that has any merit before God.




Then, perhaps, ark you have a different understanding of what "defending the faith" means than I do. To me, it means to be ready to give a biblically based answer for WHY I believe what it is that I believe. ANY new born Christian is saved, but that does not mean that they instantly understand all that the Scripture teaches. I don't understand everything for two main reasons. First, there are some things that God has chosen to not reveal to us at this time. Second, maturing in the faith is analagous to growing from infancy into adulthood. We learn through study, teaching of others who have gone before us, and through application of God's truths. Someone, for example, asked about a question that they had (and no one bothered to give an answer) about how members of the Mafia could claim to be Catholic Christians and still go around murdering people. The "bottom line" is that they are not saved and are merely appropriating "sheeps clothing" because it serves their purpose. I know that sounds "judgmental," as I have been accused of being in the past, but it is not me that is saying it, it is God. All one needs to do is to look at the Scripture to see a list of people who will NOT be in heaven, and unrepentant sinners of that sort were never known by God, and therefore, never saved. There IS such a thing as "Cause and Effect" and God is the first Cause.

On the thread in question, a young man who is not married and has not experienced the "joy" of infidelity comes on ostensibly to learn how to prevent infidelity in any potential marriage he might enter. Personally, I suspect that he might be a young priest, but that's based upon other things that he has said.

Regardless, he launches into a thread trying to connect Confession with the "WS Fog." That might be an interesting discussion, but it has very little, if anything, to do with preventing a potential affair in his "maybe future."

No, he launched into that discussion steeped in Roman Catholic teaching, and specifically the teaching about Confession and then decided to play the "anger at you" card when I had the apparent "audacity" to suggest that any confession, along with anything else, that destablizes an ongoing afffair is a "good thing," but that his underlying question involved the Catholic doctrine that someone who commits a Mortal Sin LOSES their salvation.

HE, not I, brought in the issue of DOCTRINE, and did so in his opening post to that thread. If someone is so "afraid" of their belief that it cannot stand up to opposing points of view, then there exists the very real possibility of "blind faith" just as so many here have learned that "blind trust" really might not be the "best approach." A person has to KNOW the person that they are trusting, and that person in the context of the thread was not the WS, a Priest, the Pope, ForeverHers, or any human being, it was Jesus Christ and God.

Here is the "bottom line" with respect to Athansius' question. Roman Catholic doctrine, handed down through various Popes and Councils, concludes that a saved person CAN be "snatched out the hand of Christ." In simple words, they teach and believe that a once truly saved person CAN lose their salvation. Others who are not Roman Catholics also teach that. WHY? Because it's "how we would do it if we were God." We try to apply our "logic and emotions" to God and make Him conform to us, instead of the other way around.

The issue is NOT whether or not an individual CAN be in any church, they can. The issue is how long can one remain in a church that teaches and believes contrary to what God has revealed without becoming "infected" with, or in propagating "untruth" to others and giving them "false hope."

God is CLEAR. It is by faith in Christ alone that we are saved and no amount of self-deception will provide any justification before God.

Therefore, the issue of "faith not works" becomes one that any Christian might want to seriously consider studying because it is a Christian's desire to "please God," not any man or Church, first.

Ark, the "issue" with God and "works" is one of motivation, not to earn salvation or keep salvation. We DO "good works" because we love God and He has instructed us to do good works in response to our gratitude for what He did for us.

If that were not so, then the purpose of the 10 Commandments, for example, would be to show us how we could merit God's forgiveness and our own justification before God, rather that the true purpose of showing us that we cannot, in our fallen state, "measure up" to God's high standard of perfection. It is, in fact, provided to teach us not just what is a good way to live, but to convict us that we really ARE sinners, hopelessly separated from God and in need of a Savior who is himself, God.

The issue with Scripture, and the Sola Scriptura that MF rejects and that he states that the RCC rejects, is very simple. The ENTIRE Bible must be taken into account when examining anything, especially when the "topic" is a confusing topic to human understanding and human reason.

For example, "an eye for an eye" is found in the Bible. Do we apply that without understanding the entire context? Do we simply change it to mean "an affair for an affair" is a "correct" response?

Did Abraham offer Issac because the DOING, the work itself, provided him with righteousness before God, OR did the work result from Abraham's total trust and surrender of everything he had TO God? It WAS Abraham's FAITH that was "counted as righteousness," not that righteousness was merited by Abraham BECAUSE of what he did. Works follow Faith. That is precisely the same thing that James teaches. But that Truth is twisted into a "half-truth" in the same way that Satan deceived Eve. Take a truth and twist it to fit one's own purpose.

James is RIGHT, faith without works IS a lie, a self-delusion, a focusing on the action without the underlying motivating truth for the "work." Faith without the underlying truth of works that are motivated by a love for God and not of self, or as a way that we can "earn" justification for ourselves before God, IS a "dead faith." That sort of belief is NOT a saving faith, it is believing "the lie."

That is precisely why Jesus warns us that there will be many who consider themselves "Christians" based upon what THEY did, not solely upon what Jesus did for them. It is why we are called to "examine ourselves," to know what is the true motivation for what we do.

When Jesus died and paid the price ONCE for all sin for all people to receive His gift of grace and mercy, unmerited by anything we do, God's wrath against those who accept His gift is finished because it was exacted against Jesus on our behalf. He, the totally innocent, took our place in the "death chamber" so that justice was served and we were personally pardoned.

That is also the point of the Scripture when it speaks of the IMPOSSIBILITY of "being saved twice, or thrice, or however many times" if it WERE possible to lose the salvation that God gave us. No priest or human "sets the rules for God." God sets the rules.

ALL people, including born again believers, WILL sin again. But that sin, in and of itself, does NOT cause us to lose our salvation. A believer who sins WILL be brought to repentance of that sin and will LEAVE that life of sin, however many times it "takes." When God instructed Peter to "Forgive a brother who sins against you seventy times seven times" God was also telling us how His grace and forgiveness is imputed to ALL of a believer's sins. God was NOT saying that consequences of sin are erased, just that we ARE forgiven and God does not hold that sin against us so that we become "unsaved." God is not, as the old phrase when, "an indian giver." When God speaks of consequences of sin in our lives, especially AFTER we become born again, God is speaking about the "rewards" that will be given to all believers in heaven. THAT is the "fire" applied to our "works" that MarriedForever was misapplying in his "refutation" to me.


We have the assurance of salvation because of what Christ did, not because of anything we can do. We have the assurance of salvation because God is faithful to ALL of His promises. God is truth, not the "musings of man," and when God told the thief "TODAY you will be with ME in paradise," Jesus meant no purgatory, no "stop over place" where others could "work out his salvation for him." When Jesus our Lord spoke about the rich man and the poor man, Lazarus, in Luke 16:19-31 it is clear that Jesus is THE AUTHORITY and He plainly spoke that there was no purgatory, there was only in He11 or at Abraham's side in heaven. He(the thief) "merited" TODAY based solely upon his faith in Christ, and only upon his own faith at the time of his death. No water baptism, no "doing good works," no nothing other than Christ imputing His own payment of the penalty FOR him. The thief's "circumstances," i.e., his own impending death, were not changed or erased. But where he would spend eternity following his death was changed from "death" to "life" with God, with no "in between place." All that was based solely upon his faith in Christ, not his ability to do or change anything to make God accept him on his own merit.




Yes it can, ark. But there is only ONE "narrow gate" to salvation that is established by God and not by any man. There ARE many paths that lead to destruction, but only one that leads to eternal life WITH God rather than forever separated FROM God. And the many paths (the life we lead) must lead to the ONE gate, not to the Wide Road that leads to destruction. Ark, I took one of those "paths" you refer to and "walked in my own counsel." I am CERTAIN that doing so is what lead to my wife's affair and God taught me that lesson "the hard way." I WILL NOT abandon God or seek "another path" for as long as I live. To do so would invite more "stumbling" into my life, and that is not what God has promised to those who love Him and keep His commands. [color:"red"] "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matt. 11:29-30) [/color]



Not at all. But then neither does my posting an "opposing" position to the stated DOCTRINES of the Roman Catholic Church require that I be "browbeaten" as a "means of defending Roman Catholicism." The ISSUE is not "defending" the doctrines of ANY denomination that calls itself "Christian," the issue is "defending" the truth of God once revealed in Scripture because IT, not us, is the Word of God. That "defending" means simply to "give an answer for what it is that I believe based upon the Word of God and not the mere interpretations of man." We "defend" the gospel, not any "other gospel." We examine the interpretations of men to determine if they are truly "of God" or not with respect to what God has chosen to reveal to us in the Scripture. "Sincere belief," in and of itself, does not mean that it is right. So the Scripture becomes the "arbiter" of what is right and what is wrong, and that IS what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is speaking about.



And that, Ark, is at the root of the problem. What we want rather than what God wants. I simply refer you to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 for God's instruction on "defending the faith."

God bless.

FH...This was in my inbox this morning, a daily "devotional" of sorts, and I thought of you. I've never posted to you before but have read your posts with great joy.

For what it's worth:

When Jesus spoke to the multitude, He did not glory in how large the
crowd was. He did not congratulate Himself on having such an
influential ministry. Instead, He sought to thin the numbers out by
sifting them with a difficult word, saying, "You must eat my flesh
and drink my blood if you wish to be my disciples." At this saying,
the multitude and many of His disciples turned aside and no longer
followed Him. Instead of running after them in an effort to make
Himself understood and accepted, He watched them go. Then, turning to
the Twelve, He said, "Will you also go away?" Here is a Man who is
not afraid to be misunderstood because He is not afraid of people,
what they will think, or what they will say about Him unjustly.

WE can discern His meaning, but THEY could not. Why did He not
explain what He meant? Because He had no love for Himself, no desire
to be understood. He only called for those who had ears to hear. He
spoke the Word and allowed the hearers to exercise their own judgment
and spiritual discernment. He had no desire to be appreciated or
accepted. He would not have them accept HIM while rejecting the WORD
He brought. If they rejected His Word, they rejected Him.

To overcome the fear of man, we must not only be willing to be
misunderstood and unappreciated, we should expect it. Then we will be
free to speak what God has given us and will not be troubled should
others fail to grasp the significance of it.

In your opinion.

How successful would you say you were in preventing affairs? Might that affect how much weight the rest of us should give your opinion?

Here is the problem. Nobody asked you to give a defense of your opinion, and your ideas on "once saved always saved" had nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Yet you charged in with a barrage of Catholic-bashing.

Interesting that you're leaving, then.

In a word, no. It is based on their understanding of Scripture and tradition. Certainly this understanding differs from yours. It is not automatically wrong for that reason.

This is "poisoning the well". You are asserting that anyone who teaches other than OSAS is doing so because of unworthy motives. Wrong.

There are several passages of Scripture in which Jesus and others speak specifically of those who fall away. Judas Iscariot, Ananias and Sapphira, the parable of the sower - all instances of those who "heard the word with joy" and then lost it. It is possible to believe that OSAS is wrong, based on the Bible.

And yet you are trying to insist that your opinion is the only possible one, and storming off in a huff when it is questioned.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Regards,
rs0522

FH,

Thank you for your time and words.

My education as a lawyer included reading a lot of case law. I found reading your arguments and discussions on MB very similiar. I was the perfect way for me to learn about scripture and I followed your posts "religiously" <snicker>.

I hope you stick around. I've seen you escalate your efforts and time in the past to a point where you back off...only to come back slowly again in the future. Maybe after 5 years we won't be that fortunate this time.

You will be missd by me and Mrs. W.

Mr. Wondering