Langaan-
Have not posted to you before but have read your thread and felt compelled to post due to the issue of bipolar and OCD
(obsessive-compulsive disorder)being involved in your sitch.

After misdiagnosis with depression years ago my WH was finally diagnosed with Bipolar disorder about a year ago.
(He was diagnosed with OCD years ago). In going with him
to many IC session and doing research on my own on this illness I can tell you that it is likely your W has had this
illness for some time, perhaps years, as my WH did.
He always felt discontent, down, and unhappy, and often time
blamed that on me or our marriage, when it was actually his
illness, because a very typical sympton of Bipolar disorder
is feeling sad, down, anxious, unhappy and discontent.
You mentioned that your W said "her being unhappy had made
her get Bipolar disorder" when this is impossible and just
the opposite of the truth- having bipolar disorder is a
huge factor in her feeling unhappy and discontent !

My WH has been on meds and under the care of a psychiatrist
for over a year now, and has made some improvement in his
moods. Another huge symptom of bipolar for him was also a
lack of "impulse control", during which time he began his
A, spent huge amounts of money and made other very poor
decisions. This may play into your wife's thinking as well,
if she thinks that moving near her family, or anywhere, is
going to "solve" all her problems or "make" her happy.

You didn't make it clear if your wife is now on medication
or under treatment for her illness, but this is going to be
a necessity before she is going to feel better and think
more clearly !! Within a couple weeks of starting meds, my
WH said he "felt better than he had felt in years", his
mood changed, he wasn't so down, and he started to realize
that there were many more issues in his feeling unhappy and
discontent than me or the marriage.

I believe your wife's feeling unhappy and discontent could
very well be the same situation, and that until she is able
to get under medical care and "stalized" with this, she is
not going to respond well to your efforts. She also is not
going to be able to make smart, clear decisions for herself
or your family. I would urge you to get her into a good Dr.
and counseling if she isn't already ! Finding the right
combination and doses of meds takes awhile, and even with
those things, there is no instant "fix" or "cure" of OCD
or bipolar disorder- they are lifetime illnesses.
It will require lots of time, patience, and support from
you for her to get to a better place....

Perhaps if she starts to feel better, she will realize that
it is not the place you live that makes her unhappy and she
will be willing to stay there and make the effort to really
make it her home. But, she also still may not want to be
there- and then you have to think about whether or not your
marriage and family is your highest priority, or if your
job, home, and living where you are are more important to
you- and only you can know that.
In my situation, my husband and our marriage are THE most
important things to me, and I would move, change houses,
change jobs, or do whatever it would take to make us BOTH
happy.

Sounds like part of your not wanting to move or change is
the argument that she agreed to move there some years ago,
or more on the "principle" that you should not "have" to
move or be inconvenienced. I understand that moving and/or
changing jobs is a huge hassle and expense, but also want
to suggest that there are ways to compromise and try to make
both people happy. What about moving somewhere between your
current location and her family, or to a new place where
neither of you have connections and can have a "fresh start"?

Just MHO, but the way you have presented what you want to
tell her does come across as very controlling, and as you
feeling your opinions or feelings are more important than
hers. I would guess this will not be effective and will
cause more harm than good, because she is not currently in
any condition to make a good or clear decision and is going
to perceive this as a total lack of caring about how she
feels or what she wants. If you push her to make a choice
or decision or to stay where she doesn't want to be, you
may "win the argument, but lose the person".

I hope you can have a talk in which you can lovingly and
firmly let your W know you love her and your children and
want more than anything to have a happy family. I hope you
will discuss her illness and need to get immediate care.
I'd hope you could put off any ultimatums or heavy handed
talk about where you live, and work on the more pressing
issues at hand, but- if she does still insist that she has
to leave in order to "be happy", I'd make it clear and firm
that she will be going alone, and that you will not permit
her to take the kids. I wouldn't make threats or bring up
legal action, just make those arrangments if and when you
actually face the situation.

Best wishes-
Slammed

You can't. Anytime someone considers "Letting My Spouse Be Hurt" to be a perfectly legitimate way to solve a problem, POJA is not even on their radar screen.

Someone with BP Disorder is not going to understand POJA. You need a lawyer and she needs a psychiatrist. Period. And you'd better do it quickly or you will wake to find her gone and the children with her and you will have a very, very, very hard time getting those kids back.
Mulan

LG,

My brother is bi-polar. I love him to death, but I’d be quick to tell you that it would be totally unreasonable for you to let your children go with their bi-polar mother. Please read and learn about bi-polar. Unlike MEDC’s advise, you cannot ignore this illness. It is at the crux of your problem.

You are the only one that can protect your children, and pretty soon if your W’s bi-polar gets worse, you will have to protect her too. Not an easy feat, but one that probably will have to be done.

In sum, besides protecting yourself and the children legally, educate yourself on this most unfortunate illness. You family depends on it!

I have quite clearly stated that her medical situation must be factored into any decision... but her medical problem in no way explains away this posters passive agressive approach to things. She DOES need medical help if in fact she is ill... and as I stated above this MUST be factored into any decisions. Absent her medical problems though... I see nothing wrong with her wanting to move closer to her family. And if her desire to do so exists after her medical problem is resolved... it should be POJA'd.... something this poster refuses to look at.... it is either "here" or nothing. But again.. my quote above clearly points out that the problem must be addressed. I've dealt with a similar personality problem in the past with a GF and know how tough it can be.
Aph... for the record... I don't have time to come here to argue for arguments sake... if you don't agree with my take on something that's fine...I'm not here to impress you. I will just offer opinion as I see fit based on my read on things. If it helps.. great..if not.. it can be ignored.



Agree 100%.

Exactly right, it is impossible to POJA with someone who only has their own selfish interest at heart and has no care for the other person.

He had her enthusiastic agreement to move there in the first place. She could not care less if she has his enthusiastic agreement to move away. And he has said he DOES NOT AGREE to move away. According to POJA, she should therefore drop it. Unless there is enthusiastic agreement, it should not be done.

Even so, there is not enough mutual care in this marriage to POJA. His W is a freeloader who cares only for herself and not the marriage.

langaan, stick to your guns, you are exactly right in your stance. Don't allow her to take your children and be prepared to get a court order. I agree that you should not agree to stay in a marriage where her only committment is to be "miserable" because she doesn't get her way.

thanks all,
and mk, I tried one last time to POJA last night. I thank you mk for showing me that I needed to do this, but unfortunately, it was indeed pointless.

I started the converstation with her last night by telling her I am willing to consider moving, but we have ALOT to talk about.

She was happy to hear that, and we went on with putting the kids to bed, then sat down to have a talk.

Unfortunately, the first 5 minutes of this talk re-assured myself that I am indeed not insane, and am not being selfish about not moving.

Here's how it went:
ps: TOWN = the place she wants to move to.

ME: "In order for me to consider moving, I need to be certain that we can both be happy there. If we can't discuss this and have both of us sure that this can be a happy and positive decision, there is no point. I cannot move if I beleive there is a good chance that one of us will be unhappy"

WIFE: "OK"

ME: "First of all I need to know exactly what it is about moving to TOWN that you feel you need. I need to know all the details, exactly what it is you feel we will gain from moving there"

WIFE: "I want to be able to just get in my car and go rollerblading with my sister, I want to be able to just get in my car and go to a BBQ at moms if she is having one, I want my mom to be able to stop by for coffee after work."

ME: "is there anything else?"

long pause, during which time she was puzzled.

ME: "is there anything else?"

Wife: "Im sure there are other things, but I guess thats about the main reasons"

ME: "Ok, so now we need to talk about what is an acceptable distance from TOWN. Your mother has said that even if we were a few hours away to the west, you would be happy"

WIFE: "No, I need to be IN TOWN, or within 30-45 minutes"

ME: "Why?"

WIFE: "Beacause I dont want to have to pack a bag when I go visit my mom"

ME: "but a 3 hour drive is easily doable in a day"

pause

WIFE: "I need to be in TOWN or within 30-45 minutes. Preferably in TOWN."

ME: "So what if I cannot find a job in that vacinity?"

** Wife shrugs her shoulders

ME: "What if I found a job 3 hours outside of TOWN?"

WIFE: "It may not be enough."

ME: "What?"

Wife: "It would probably be an improvement, but it may still not be enough and I cant garauntee I would be happy"

ME: "Ok, well that is what I thought, and I am very sorry, but I cannot move"

She then rolled into telling me that I am imprisoning her here, and then she said "YOU WIN, I WILL STAY HERE FOREVER AND BE MISERABLE FOREVER!!" , and then she went to bed.

oh, i also asked the questions "what about the kids?"

her response...
"They will come with me. They are kids, they will adjust, thats what kids do"

Its interesting that she can say this, considering the fact that she is 29yrs old and cant adjust to living away from her mother.

langaan, you cannot negotiate with someone who is not at the table and who is clearly only interested in her own selfish desires. You did the right thing and have done everything you can.

Would she counsel with Steve Harley? SH might be able to work with you both to teach you how to make each other happy. That might be the solution.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Now that is silly. If she feels "imprisoned" tell her to call the sheriff to come rescue her. She is free to walk out that door anytime she chooses. Good grief...

p.s. does she understand that you won't be footing the bill if she runs to her mamas? I would make it clear that she can't take the kids and she can't take any family money either.

There's either something else going on that your W is not telling you, or she's a few cards short of a full deck.

I suspect the former.

I suggesting protecting yourself and the kids, otherwise you'll likely come home one day and find W and kids not home.

OTOH...

Have you seriously looked into what jobs are available closer to town? Perhaps if you can show her that the family will be worse off financially if you move just to appease her need to go rollerblading and partake in the occasional BBQ by her mum without having to pack a bag, she might see the situation in a different light.

I expect though that she has her mind made up and h*ll or high water ain't gonna do much to change it.

I have wondered the exact same thing. This may be an excuse to leave you and take the kids so she can carry on an affair. If you didn't know there was some stud in the wings, you would continue to support her. If you did know, her house of cards collapses.

How sure are you there is not an affair in the woodpile?

I feel I am positive there is not an affair. I am positive that in her mind she truly wants me to move with her.

Her and her family are not in anyway considering her ilness to be a factor at all in any of this.

Infact her mother is telling me that if I am not willing to move, I should just let her go.

I am in canada, can and and how do i get cousnel with steve hardy?

Hm... is bipolar disorder hereditary? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If this is not a symptom of her illness, then she's extraordinarily self-centered, and no prizes for guessing from who she might have picked up THAT character trait.

her mother isnt helping at all.

infact her mother has even told my wife that a long time ago, after her and her husband seperated, she gave up a job and took a different job with a huge pay-cut just to move back near family.

in other words she is 100% supporting the idea that moving could make everything go away, even if it means the kdis losing their father. As theyve said before, kids adjust right.

You couldnt be more right on the idea that she feels moving will fix her problems, such as going on shopping sprees daily. She has cealry stated before that she feels her ilness and those things are not related.

infact she has said to me just recenetly ..
"Maybe if we moved I wouldnt blow $100 everytime i walk out the door like i do now"

anyways, what are you thoughts on this now that i posted our discussion from last night?

I don't think the last question in your post was directed at me, Langaan, but I'll throw in my 2¢ worth anyway.

Your wife is ill, pardner. Okay, let me back up a bit here. In the interests of full disclosure, I have no training whatsoever in the art of psychological analysis, save for what I can glean from books purchased off Ebay. (I’m poor, so I can’t purchase them brand new from Barnes and Nobel. lol)

That having been admitted, it sure seems to me her bi-polar disorder is drifting into something of a sociopathic tendency…in this respect: she is acting as if she is the center of the universe and no one else in the world is “real.”

(Example: the children will “adjust”…and you’re required to follow suit. All you have to do is do what she says. She will be happy and she supposes everyone else will be also simply because she is.)

There is no real examination of who is happy and who isn’t. Similarly, there's no projection of the effects such a move would have on the family. Her only concern is that she would be happy.

To her, there are no other valid opinions and everyone must agree with her or they will be punished. When you don’t agree to her terms last night, she threw a tantrum and left the room to shut you off, right? Further, I’ll bet she got in bed, pulled the covers over her and turned her back on you, didn’t she? How close am I?

The thing is, pardner, until her disorders are treated to whatever extent they can be, you are going to have to be the adult in the family because she cannot be one. The disorder clouds every action she takes and everything she feels. You are going to have to make the important decisions for the family because she can’t make rational decisions right now. That’s not why you got married, I know, but I think it’s necessary.

The idea that you should leave your job (where you earn a living which, in turn, allows the family to have an acceptable lifestyle) and move to a place where you could not earn a living is ludicrous on its face. In order to be happy, she has to be wrapped in mommy’s arms within 30 minutes? How mature an idea is that? Is that the desire of a rational human being? Friend, the suggestion the family move so she is happy only serves to illustrate the fact that it’s the disorder speaking when you debate such things with her.

Sooner or later, your wife and some people here at MB, will turn this all around on you, Lang. Your wife and others will say that by refusing to move (and refusing to allow the children to be uprooted), you are imposing your wants and desires on the family. “How dare you?” they will say. Such criticism ignores the financial loss (and it’s impact on the family’s standard of living), that the children would have to endure leaving all their friends behind, the family would be uprooted and unsettled, etc., etc. Langaan, so long as you have these good reasons for not complying with your WW’s demands, ignore the critics.

Now, Langaan, you need to get yourself to an attorney to find ways of making your family secure. Your wife cannot be depended upon to make rational decisions. Thwarted in her desire for you to cave in to her demands, she may make the irrational decision to take off some morning and go back home to mommy. She will think presenting you with a fait accompli is just what’s needed to make you do see things her way. I have no idea how the judicial system works in Canada, but you need to look into initiating a “restraining order” (or whatever it’s called up there) to make sure she cannot take off with the children some day. Protect yourself and your children, okay? It’s tough, but I think you must.

Hang in there, Langaan. Be strong.

Thanks longhorn. I have an appointment with a counsellor tommorrow afternoon, and i will decide from there what I am going to do... but I think I will be going for the court order by the end of the week.

Now if it gets that far, and it gets to the point where I have to use the court order, is there any chance of things to work out? or is it inevitable that I am going to lose my wife?

what I meant by the above question is, do things ever work out once they go that far? Any of you have some personal situations similar to mine that turned out good, if so, how'd you manage the stress throughout it?

Here's a suggestion.

Take the ENQ together. If she won't take it, take it for yourself.

See what ENs of yours she is meeting.

You are obviously unhappy in this M (as much as she is, you know) so I bet it's few. Then do what is advised so often around here when a spouse's ENs are not met and they are unhappy (instead of having an affair).

Tell her you want them met so you can be happy with her. If she refuses to work with you on ENs, the ethical choice is to divorce her. See, now you have quantitative proof she isn't the center of the universe - proof for yourself that is, she won't care.

Now, I have to tell you, she isn't going to start meeting your ENs. She is obsessing like a true BP on this move that will fix everything for her - and her alone.

Geographic cures do not work, especially not for mentally ill people.

I really do see this as the equivalent of an exit affair.

So get your legal ducks in a row. Keep your children safe with you. Do not let her or her mother/family corrupt them into another copy of them.

With prayers,

ed: spelling and syntax

"what I meant by the above question is, do things ever work out once they go that far?"

Sure. All the time.

But she needs to get long term medical help first. Otherwise all bets are off.