Hi again,

D day was about 2 months ago. Both my WH and OW have really made a huge concerted effort to avoid all contact. She has resigned as promised and I’m pretty certain that they have had no contact. I get the feeling that both of them were relieved when everything got found out. This was a 2 year EA/PA with the whole soul mate thing going on.

She has apologised to me for the damage she has done and I believe that she is sincere. My WH is doing his best to recover our marriage and I believe that every day he grows more and more remorseful.

News spread around the office yesterday that OW has resigned and is leaving soon. My WH felt pretty low at the news because it signals the end of their relationship and friendship and everything.
After a very emotional conversation last night he indicated that he needs some closure with her.
I emailed her the NC letter in SAA from WH’s email account some time ago, but I was the one who typed it out and clicked send. WH didn’t like the letter because it’s so impersonal so he wasn’t too thrilled at sending it, but agreed to do it if I thought it would help us recover. (He does understand why it needs to be impersonal, but still feels that he is betraying her/what they had. (Yes, I know!!!!)
With hindsight we both see that this wasn’t the best way to do the NC letter because he still feels the need for closure.

I am in touch with her via text – she lets me know her whereabouts so they can avoid contact at work until she leaves.
WH wants me to send her a text in which I let her know that he is sorry, goodbye and good luck. I’m sure he would like it to be a bit more personal than that when it comes to crunch time though. Neither of us is sure whether or not this is a bad idea.

Their feelings are still strong. Neither of them were expecting to get caught when they did and they have had no contact since D Day, so for them, everything has been left up in the air; neither of them has had any closure with each other.
I am concerned that re-initiating any contact between them after the NC letter is just begging for trouble, whether it is through me or not - considering that emotions are still raw at this point.
I also feel like he’s asking my permission to hurt me one more time. It really does feel like he’s pouring salt in the wound. He’s not being pushy at all about this, he very respectfully just asked if it’s something I’d be willing to consider.
However, I am also concerned that if my WH doesn’t get any proper closure that he will continue to seek it without my knowledge, with an even worse outcome.

What does the collective wisdom of the board say?

There should be NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER WITH HER AGAIN IN BOTH OF YOUR LIVES. You should not be contacting her nor should your H. Any contact will likely cause the A to start up all over again..a FALSE RECOVERY..check out Silent Lucidity's thread.

There should be NC. That your H is more concerned with closure with the OW than he is with your feelings is sickening. DO NOT have any contact with her regarding this.
Inform your H that if he insists on closure with a person that he has had MULTIPLE affairs with, it will be against your wishes and will result in his suffering the consequences of his actions.
Since they have already had two affairs, I would let him know that any breaking of NC or a renewed affair will be the last straw....it would be a deal breaker for me.
MEDC

Here is my "pearl of wisdom": HALE NO!

NO CONTACT EVER, for the rest of his life. It's real simple. Even if you have to move to TAZMANIA to avoid contact, there should NEVER EVER BE ANY CONTACT FOR LIFE.

"Closure" means to CLOSE, not open. He will get "closure" by CLOSING THE DOOR. SLAM!!

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Mimi wrote: Check this out from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material...

p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

First let me say, my H did not know anything about my A until I confessed it to him 15 months after I ended it. We also did not know anything about the MB, so we were not doing things like they do them here. It sure would have been helpful and helped me recover faster had I known MB existed. I do see how the MB way works, so follow it.

My opinion on your H sending a NC message, Why bother? He could send 100 letters and still never get the closure he is looking for. I am a FWS and I "NEEDED" closure. Well I wrote 3 closure letters and gave them to my FOM, with each one came more things I "needed"/wanted to tell him and "needed" closure from. Hindsight, it was just a way to have contact, even if benign and meaningless.

I once had a wise woman, who is a FBS, tell me closure comes from within and I found that to be very true. Your H has to accept he will never see or talk to her and then he will be able to move on without ever actually telling her goodbye and good luck. You think she doesn't already know he wishes her well? She does and IMO, he needs to accept that w/o actually telling her.

IMO, it's a way to get just a little "fix" before she leaves. I also believe your H will say it isn't, trust me, it is.

I looked at your previous thread and I was wondering if you ever exposed to the OW's H?

Yep, WH is fearing the pain of withdrawal from his drug of choice and wants to get one last fix or make sure that he can once you ease up on his leash.

In the end, you can not stop any action that he takes, so it is not about you allowing him to send the letter, but rather telling him how it would make you feel if he does and then let him do what he wants with that knowledge. He needs to decide who he is going to protect, OW? Himself? You? What he chooses tells you where he is at and allows you to protect yourself from him, if necessary.

Good Luck and I hope your WH makes what I think is the right choice.

Glad you're back Words. Wondering like Fiatflux if you ever exposed to OWH. (I posted to your other thread when you were wondering if OWH might harm your H.)

I also tried to continue friendly chatter with OW, thinking (wrongly) that by establishing loyalty with her that she would not betray me again with my H.

I firmly believe that if there is such a thing as a BS FOG that that it is far more dangerous than WS FOG because it is so unique that few have experienced it.

I have.

If I had found MB before the BS fog set in, we would be so much further ahead and avoided all the pain of multiple d-days.

Expose to OWH immediately and tell OW good-bye NOW. If you need any more convincing why, most of my threads reveal the pain we are trying to overcome because I did not do either in a timely manner.

Ace

Thanks everyone, and Ace I did read your threads but here I still am!,

About the exposure…

On Sunday I found OW’s home number on WH’s laptop. I incidentally just received the trace results a few minutes ago – nada. I had wanted OWH’s last name and address. But I do have their home number now anyway. You can’t do reverse number look up here so my only option is via the telephone. So now these are my thoughts and I know everyone is going to lay into me, but I’ll put it all out there anyway…

• I don’t have the guts!
• What if she answers the phone?
• What if he answers the phone?!
• What do I say?
• I feel bad doing this. I feel bad for him, for her, for WH. Yes, I know!
• Mostly, I know it’s really going to upset WH

Okay, I’m ready…who’s going to give it to me first!

How badly do you want to save your marriage? How much pain can you endure?

I am so sorry Words, but I have to go to work and I cannot post until tonight. Many who have already posted to your thread have been the ones who helped me. Please LISTEN....no one wants to bash you. It may feel like it but overcome that insecurity. WE ALL WANT TO HELP!

Consider those two questions above and decide accordingly.

Email me if you want to and I'll share things I can't put on these forums because OW might be lurking.

Ace

I hope you do expose the affair to her husband. It is a necessary part of recovery. I walked over to OW's house, and SHE answered the door. I simply asked to speak to her hubby. He was very grateful to know.

As for closure, (YAWN), that is what they all want when they go NC. Mine had closure first in a love letter, then in person, and then in the hotel room. Then he needed a little more closure. We are divorced now, by the way. It was too much "closure" for me.

they would like one last chance to share saliva

LOLOLOLOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!

I know that shouldn't be funny but that made me laugh out loud!!!
Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh. The other replies have depressed the ****** out of me. I'm not complaining - I am very grateful for the reality checks!

Don't mean to depress you, Words (risk losing job to tell you this) but what you're going through is nothing compared to what could/will happen if you do not act now.....or soon.

Which pain would you rather endure? Exposure/withdrawal/ NC issues or losing your marriage?

Ace

I fell for the closure plea, and allowed 'one last closure call' about four months after d-day. I thought it would allow him to detach from her without guilt.

Ha!

All it did was to re-ignite their interest in each other. The 'one last call' turned into many calls, each several hours, and eventually H delivering little notes to her town apartment. The affair was essentially restarted.

H tried hard to claim that this was all a closure 'process'. And it was, because it gave me the impetus to gain the 'closure' of Plan B.

As either continue painfully, or end painfully. There's no no-pain option.

TA

NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER...

PLEASE TAKE IT FROM ME, IT'S a CROCK! It's withdrawal speak and it's dangerous. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO...If contact is made the AFFAIR WILL CONTINUE.

Noooooooooo, read my sitch, read it twice, don't do it.

I like what Robert Fulford has to say about "closure":


Especially for WS, "closure" generally represents a desire to look more sympathetic, less heartless than the abrupt no contact, be more likeable, keep a door open <just in case>....in short it's a damage control strategy. And unfortunately....it's damage control for the AFFAIR, and NOT the marriage. Damage control for the marriage is NO CONTACT.

Your waywards spouse doesn't get to feel better or make the OW feel better.....if in the process it makes you feel like kaka!! Sorry bud....one of the consequences of saving a marriage is often that you end up looking like a jerk and coming to terms with the fact that you hurt everyone involved.

He doesn't get to have "closure" that UNDOES YOUR closure....nope

no how

no way

Look at the bright side. If your H didn't feel like this it could very well mean that contact is still on going.

Put me down for NC PERIOD.

*I don’t have the guts!
• What if she answers the phone?
• What if he answers the phone?!
• What do I say?
• I feel bad doing this. I feel bad for him, for her, for WH. Yes, I know!
• Mostly, I know it’s really going to upset WH

Actually....all of these things have a common thread. You want to avoid conflict....and dawlin....I sure don't blame you! But it's important that you understand the risks in avoiding conflict in a situation like this. The risk is that you, your H, her, her H, and any children involved have much greater potential to be harmed if you don't expose this affair. This isn't about power....it's about responsibility and ethics. You don't have a responsibility to expose this affair widely unless recontact occurs....but you still have an ethical responsiblity to inform the other BS.

A good analogy is this one: You discover that your son and his friend are doing drugs in your home. Do you call the other parents? Will it be hard to figure out what to say? Will it anger your son? Will anger his friend? Will it be difficult for everyone involved. Yes....to all of that....but still...you must do it.

(((((((((((((((((words)))))))))))))))))))))