Well, since I dont have leeway to respond to something elsewhere... I'm going to write a little something about myself here instead. Ok, make that a LONG something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have been described as apparently "gravitating toward battered women". I can understand that appearance, given the amount of time I've spent writing on certain threads.
I've also spent a lot of time on other threads... I just catch more flak and attention about my posts on those ones.

Why have I spent so much time there, then?
I would say that has a lot to do with the name of this forum, and the stated principles behind it.


One of those principles, is "Radical honesty".

If someone comes here and wants to follow marriage builder principles, then seems to me that "radical honesty" is a core part of it.

Someone is incapable of radical honesty with their spouse, if they are not honest and truthful with themselves first.

When I see someone posting something about themselves, that isn't true, I think that first of all, they are making the statements, because they don't realize something about themselves. I dont think there are many people who come here to lie about themselves <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
If they are saying something about themselves, that both isnt true, and they dont realize it... they may never see it, until someone mentions it to them. So, in those cases, I try to mention it.
'o course, it's tough to accurately determine "truth" across a video screen. Sometimes, I miss the mark myself. I know i'm not perfect. I've made some mistakes here, and I've acknowleged them when I have realized it.


Then there are some cases when someone posts something that isnt true about themselves... where they dont mean to lie to others... but they are lying TO THEMSELVES, first and foremost, about it.
There are lots of potential reasons why they may do this. It's 'easier' that way... or it's 'more comfortable' that way... or it's the only way they can justify doing whatever they want to do. And probably lots of other potential reasons.

Given that one of the core MB principles, is radical honesty.. I dont think that anyone who believes that the principles are good things, should be encouraging anyone here to lie to themselves. about anything.

Attempting to redefine words, so that they mean what you want them to mean, instead of what the words actually mean.. is a form of lying.

[/quote]

Sometimes, people make the right choices, for the wrong reasons. Yay for the right choice... but if it's for the wrong reasons, it's not very good in the "personal growth" front. It's actually a huge step backwards.

It's why the divorce rate for remarriages is higher than for first marriages. The people involved lie to themselves about why the divorce is happening. [ It's all about THEM, not me. They're EVIL!! ]. Thus, they don't recognize core issues in themselves... so they get remarried... and the same issues come back, and lead to divorce again. and again.
Repeating until the person stops lying to themselves about why their marriage ended in divorce, and looks at themselves honestly.

You can't fix a problem in yourself, that you don't acknowledge exists. You wont know it exists, until you look at yourself in a "radically honest" way, and see if what you are telling yourself, and what you are doing, actually match up.

Techie,

I understand what you are saying. In a sense the best thing that ever happened to me on this board is some 2x4's I have recieved.

Ultimately though I hope everyone here is trying to become a better person.

Personal growth. I don't know if the divorce rate for second M's is why you say it is but I get your point.

I personally think that one thing that should be left at the door or the login screen are personal judgments toward another person.

YOu may think you are pointing something out as a person lying to themselves but what you MAY be doing is making a personal judgment.

I have made contradictory statements and on both sides they were true and it made me realize something about myself and my M.

Somebody telling me I am wrong or a liar would upset me.

I don't beleive it is anyones place here to call someone a liar.

Heck a statement I made 3 months ago might contdradict what I say now. Because of my growth.

I think you should understand Radicall Honesty isn't absolute Truth.

"I think you should understand Radicall Honesty isn't absolute Truth. "

Well.. it depends.
I agree with your statement in part: One of the most important things about R.H. in a marriage dynamic, is that you are honest about your feelings. feelings arent neccessarily about Truth with a capital T. It's about sharing your perceptions of the truth.

If I say, "today I believe that pink is the best color". and 3 months down the road, i say, "i believe that blue is the best color"... well, both times I was making a true statement, about my feelings. no lying involved. there was no objective truth value in my statements. it was all subjective.

HOWEVER:

If I start making statements about externals... whether that be about something/someone other than me, or by actions I have done... there is absolute truth involved.

If I say, "I'm so mad at you, because I bought that vase, and you broke it!!!!"... but I didnt actually buy the vase... then there is untruth involved. the "i'm so mad" may be true, and "you broke it" may be true. but either i forgot, or i'm decieving myself, about who bought/owned the vase.

I think that's important, both because sticking to what is objectively true is important in and of itself! But also, because if I didnt buy the vase, I shoulnt be that worked up about it in the first place.


Not the best example, but hopefully, it makes it a bit clearer why I think sticking to objective truth is important for R.H.

A thought: radical honesty is important in a marriage, so that this kind of non-truth can be brought out to light... so that the other person has an opportunity to point out..."But wait.. I bought that vase??" and thus defuse the anger of the original person to some degree.

more babble... the starting point of radical honesty for the "vase" example, is that the person first be honest that they are angry. bah. i dont have time to put together a REALLY good example of what i mean. maybe another time.

bottom line: The best situation, is that you have to accurately know and understand your own actions and feelings, so that you can then properly communicate them to other people.

Techie,

I only needed you to agree in part to make it true.LOL.

That is exactly what I mean. I think if I ask you a question now you should be honest with me at all times.

Your honest answer though might not be the truth. You may believe what you are saying to be the truth but it isn't. Not because you are purposely lying.

The truth I speak today may be different then the truth I spoke yesterday. Both being completely honest.

I understand the point you are trying to make though.


I agree with that. But today my actions based on many factors will make every situation different. If I am busy I may not communicate in the same way as if I have all the time in the world. If I am in a bad mood I communicate different then when I am in a good mood.

I again want to reiterate though that you may see that in a thread. Someone fooling themselves but is it really for you or I to say "Hey you are lying to yourself".

Heck half of us wouldn't be here if we couldn't lie to ourselves.

How many times have you heard at this site Fake it till you make it.

You are only speaking truth on both days, if what you are referring to, has changed. Otherwise, one of the days, you were wrong/telling untruth. truth doesnt change based on a day. For any specific point in time, a particular something is either true, or not true, and the true/untrue answer for that , never changes.

If your perceptions of something have changed, but the thing itself has not changed... then you were still wrong. unless you were specifically making a statement about your perceptions.

day one:
Objective: "that object is blue"
Subjective: "that object looks blue to me".

day two:
Object: "That object is green"
Subjective: "that object looks green to me today"

There is no untruth in the subjective statements. You were making a statement about your perception of the object, not the object directly.
But in the objective statements.. either the object changed, or you were wrong one of the days.

Please note, that even in the subjective statements.. "the truth" did not change. Instead, what you were talking about, changed. The first day, you were talking about your perception on that day. the second day, you were talking about your perception on that different day.

[I edited, and split my reply into two posts]

Bah... splitting the posts up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




in the general case, maybe not. But specifically on this site,I'd say "yes". If you want to use "nicer" language, and substitute "fooling yourself", "decieving yourself".. sure, fine.
This site is about helping people see clearly in their marriages(seeing clearly both what they are doing now, and what needs to be done), in order to build better marriages. That requires clear vision of both their spouse, AND THEMSELVES.
In that context, I'd say it is not only "appropriate" for us to say it... I'd say it is an obligation for us to say it.

That's not lying. That is a choice of actions, made in knowlege of what you are doing. The "fake" is in the context of "'fake' actions". The choice is that, yes, you are acting in a manner that is way nicer than your current feelings would warrant, but that actions can and usually will have an effect on feelings over time.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/11/riddles.funeral/index.html

Don't judge that person we won't name right now. She is doing the best she can. She would rather not end up like the woman in this link.

familycomesfirst: I think you are making objective statements, about something that is subjective.
I think that you are saying she is making choices, "to avoid ending up like the woman in that link".
I think that is a possibility. But personally, I dont think that's why she made the choice she did. I think she made the choice she did, primarily because she didnt want to deal with the heart-hurt of her spouse's affairs any more, and didnt want to "fight". (which is quite understandable!)

I also think that she didnt want to hear what I was saying, because she didnt want to consider that some of the things her husband was saying, were actually true.

As I said earlier... it may indeed be the right choice. But I think for the wrong reasons.

Exactly what I am saying. In SOME things there are no absolute truths.



Then you will probably be uninvited from many threads. If I articulate something in a fasion that leads you, Techie, to think you are obligated to tell me I am wrong or fooling myself. I don't see that as helping.

Again I have posted before and typed it in and hit post then later went back and read it. I made no sense and contridicted myself. Heck there were times I posted on the wrong thread. I stopped posting for a while like I used to because of that.

So maybe I used the wrong word or said something that you think is wrong. Really it was nothing more then using the wrong word or being rushed.

That is why I don't feel obliged to point something out to them.

There are also times where your idea of doing something or not doing something is different then mine.

I know you used an example about flying on American West.

So lets say I was the one on American West.

I said yes I Flew on American West it was horrible but I faced my fears and flew again.

I believe I faced my fears just by flying again.

You come in and say "Hey I hate to point it out to you but you didn't face your fears. You didn't get on American West and fly Did you?"

For you maybe facing your fears would be to get on an American west flight. My idea is getting on any flight. Who is right. For you , you are right, for me I am right.

I know we are specifically talking about Rin's thread.

Rin STated she was Dealing or Facing her problems. She never made mention of which ones.

You pointed out she wasn't. If she was or she wasn't it really wasn't for you to say. Her comment was a passing comment. Maybe thinking out loud and typing.

Why jab her with a stick? That is what I didn't get.

Again My idea of facing my problems may be different then yours. Again to place an absolute to that statement is impossible to me too.

Going back to the plane. So you say I faced my fears I got on an American West plane. I can say was it the same exact plane. NO then you didn't face you fears. If you said yes I could say was it the same pilot? No. Then you didn't face your fear of flying American west on the same plane with the same pilot.......

If some of this didn't make sense I have been interuputed 9 times and this is why I don't take everything really literal here.

You are not living her life, how dare you claim to know how fearful she is? I have personally known 3 women who were killed by their spouse as they tried to leave. One of the incidents happened right outside our workplace, in BROAD daylight. He shot her 4 times with a .357 magnum.

If you can't be supportive, stay away. And quit discussing her on your thread. You've got your own issues to "face", if that's possible. Spend a little time looking in the mirror for a change.

Objective can change too.

Lets say you are looking at a car that has a custom paint job. Like on Overhaulin'. From one angle it looks and is blue. From another angle it looks and is green.

Day one you looked and it was blue. Day two you looked and it was green.

Depends on what angle you are looking at it then.

I try not to get pedantic about minor gramatical stuff. It's not worth it. I think concepts are more important. I spoke up, for a concept.

The concept of "Facing one's [fears/problems]" is a big one. It's kind of a milestone. It's something that is commonly viewed as a good, positive thing. To say, "I've faced my [problems/fears]!" has a whole lot of conceptual implications. It's a status thing, to boast about to others, and a personal growth marker, for oneself internally.

If I truely face my problems... Great!
If I know what my problem is in a particular area, and decide that it is too big of a problem for me to deal with, so i avoid/work around it... not so great, but at least it's a practical choice.

If I DONT face my problems, but instead decide to play word games to fool myself that I have... this is Not Good.

Either the problem will get bigger... or I will run into a similar problem down the road, and not handle it properly the next time either.
This is *harmful* !

I don't bring up these sort of issues well with others. My choice of wording is greatly lacking at times, unfortunately. I'd far rather other people, with a softer touch, bring them up. But when I see someone basically doing something harmful to themselves, and no-one else is addressing it... I dont want to just stand silently by and say nothing.


I see your point about the america west example. In some cases.. some things SHOULD be avoided. If you know someone is a lousy pilot: you SHOULD avoid flying on a plane with them.
In the context of marriage, though... you might encourage the "pilot" to get more flight training, rather than just never flying with them again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No, the objective truth did NOT change.
you just had poor observations/statements of it.

Depending on your taste of color descriptions, one might say that you were wrong BOTH days <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> or "only partially right" both days.

The objective truth, did not change. Because the object itself, did not change. only your perceptions changed.
I think you overstated "is blue". Rather, "from one angle, it looks blue", is the truthful statement".

[mr. speaker, it depends on what your definition of "is", is. SIGH.... yuck, i cant believe i'm talking in that same category.. euuuu... But it's more like "depends on what your definition of "object has color X". ]

Techie,

Some times though the pilot doesn't want flight training.

It is not a BS job to drag along a WS or a FWS.

It is not our job to show them the light. Each person has their own tolerance level, some have a higher one then others. So maybe their tolernace level was lower then yours.

Not ours to judge. I personally saw enough in that sitch to say yes she tried.

He almost refused NC. Acted as though he thought they had an open M.

One thing I never brought up on that thread was the BS excuse he called OW because he had a good relationship with her son.

His relationship with his own kids isn't that great.

You seem to want to save your M. I think we all do. Some just cut bait sooner and that is their choice.

In that case she is still facing problems. Maybe not the ones you think she should. But that is not for us to say.

To each his own.

I completely agree! (and for that particular person, I've said that! multiple times, in multiple places!! sigh... the communication problems are not all on "my end", ya know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Yes, it's their choice. It's unhealthy for them to fog themselves into untrue reasons about WHY they're choosing it, or what has happened to get them there, though.

Techie - it's a high thing to be a judge - very high indeed. And I doubt you're cut out for it.

I believe that your side-talk judgments about someone who has asked you to refrain from posting on her thread violates the spirit of her request - and the spirit of Terms of Service here.

Please - you have enough introspection and inventorying of your own lovebusting behavior to work through on this thread without drawing attention to your opinions of someone else's supposed marital failures. I suggest that you return to your primary focus to self-care/focus/improvement so that you can recover your own marriage or be a better human being regardless of the outcome.

I suggest you check out the disrespectful judgments portion first - if I'm not mistaken, what you demonstrate here could be a part of your marital behavior there - but I could be wrong too.

I don't know about that. Sometimes it is necessary to cut bait. The reason I say I am doing it might not be true but the end result is necessary.

So I am cutting bait because my line is tangled around the anchor. Wait it isn't tangled around the anchor it is stuck on the bottom. Wait it isn't stuck on the bottom it is stuck on the dock.

Really who cares why at that point. The best thing to do is cut bait.

Amen KaylaAndy!

Techie,

Proof of what I was talking about.


I meant the WS excuse not the BS. But see I was typing and getting interupted.

So the idea to that statement was good but I messed up.

The WS actually called OW to talk to the son. BS was not happy about that.

Kayla:


I'm all for learning to avoid DJs. Please quote me any specific language that I used, that was a disrespectful judgement against anyone. I would like to understand where I have slipped in this.
I have made statements about other people. However, they were neither judgements, nor disrecpectful. UNCOMFORTABLE, maybe. But that doesnt make them DJs.
I didnt say anywhere that I see, "so-and-so *is* ...". That would be a judgement. However, I made it clear that what I wrote, was my own opinion/guess as to motivations. Furthermore, I do not see how what I wrote, was disrespectful. I acknowleged that people have their own choices to make, and did not denigrate anyone for doing so.
If you see somewhere in my posts that this is not true, I would honestly like to have it pointed out to me, so that I can avoid that sort of thing in the future.

I would also like to mention, that I have attempted to keep what I posted here, as generic as possible. To explain my behaviour and posting style, in general, as much as possible.

Frognomore decided to bring up other specific people here. So why aren't you chastising him for doing so? I was replying to his posts, which were directed to me specifically.