So, you typed something that wasnt true. And if you hadnt noticed it... wouldnt it be appropriate for someone else to have posted, "Hey... what you wrote isnt true"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Yes, some people would have understood "what you meant". but others wouldnt, and would have gotten confused. Isnt it better that your mistake is pointed out to you, so that you get a chance to go back and correct it?
It isnt just quibbling about grammar.. it's about correcting facts.

"Well, since I dont have leeway to respond to something elsewhere... I'm going to write a little something about myself here instead. Ok, make that a LONG something"

The quote above is your thinly veiled attempt at continuing to be a part of that particular thread. NO ONE cares why you are saying what you are saying to her. It simply needs to stop, as she asked you to not be a part of the discussion anymore. From what I can tell, the discussion of that thread over here was instigated by you. Frog is simply being nice and entertaining your thoughts. Much nicer than I... I don't want to read about your objective/subjective theories. Just leave it alone!

If ever there was a poster that needed a "Come to Jesus" with Lemonman, techie is it!!! Almost everytime that I read techie's, ahem, "stuff" I am reminded of LM's signature line, which at one time read something like this..."Some people just don't get it and they don't get that they don't get it!"...Can I get an "AMEN"???

Mrs. W

Someone(multiple people, actually) made comments about me, on that thread.

I am respecting the thread-owners wishes by not posting on her thread. However, I think I have a right to address comments made about me, on my own thread.


Kinda sounds like a disrepectful judgement from YOU.
You are making a statement of fact, about his motivations (which you cannot possibly know as "fact"). Furthermore, you are assuming that he couldn't possibly be interested in the discussion from an intellectual level.

If you are not interested in the intellectual debate... then by all means, please read elsewhere.

PS: the most directly related-to-the-other person comments I have made... were in response to YOUR COMMENTS.. on MY THREAD, about that other person.
You shared your opinion about her motivations (although again, you seem to have stated it as fact, rather than your opinion.) So, I shared my own opinion on the matter.
It is hypocritical of you to rant at me about doing something on my thread, which you yourself instigated.

Yes it would be at that point. But see that is not you deciding if I was doing anything.

I made an error. The error was putting BS instead of WS.

The BS did not have contact nor want contact with the OP's son. LOL.

Doh as homer would say. That is an error cut and dry.

There was nothing subjective about that one.

That is where it wouldn't be a stick in someones side.

But when you use Your Judgement or apply your Ideas of terms to someone else that could cause problems.

Because in very few cases you give me, I couldn't come up with a contradictory statement that could be somewhat valid.

Even the green/Blue think I found a way to make it not always true.

Amen Mrs. W... AMEN.

Techie... good luck with your M, you're gonna need it!

i agree. it can cause, shall we say, "strong feelings".
Doesnt mean the issue should be avoided.

Fictitious example:
Lets say, someone has read, "it's important to expose the affair". So, they go around to a whole bunch of people, and say, "did you know, that my spouse knows [OP], and is good friends with them?"

Then they tell themselves, "there. I know that 'exposure' is important. I've done it! Hurray! I've exposed their relationship to everyone that matters".

Well.. they havent done it. They're "fooling themselves". They've done a mental backflip, to make themselves more comfortable in thinking, "ok, i've done what I'm supposed to do", yet avoided something they know they dont want to do, which is TRUELY "expose" the affair.

Confronting that person and saying, "no, you haven't really done the whole 'exposure' bit", may stir up some VERY strong reactions. Particularly since the person is trying really hard to avoid that whole thing.

But.. if you care about that person, and the wellbeing of their marriage... would you tell them? Do you care enough to do so?

I do. I dont always do it in the best way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but if no-one else is going to say it, then I will.

If someone has made a deliberate choice, "look, I understand about exposure, but I dont think it's right for me, so I'm choosing not to do it", I wouldnt ram it down their throats.
[unlike some people, who wanted to ram something down MY throat, even when I explained i understood and chose not to do it]

But when its not a deliberate choice, but someone decieving themselves into thinking, "I've done [milestone type thing] X", and they haven't... then when they make that claim in the context of a "communal help" forum such as here... I'm going to bring it up.

I repeat the statement I have made repeatedly: I view that whether they actually choose to DO [milestone X] is their choice!! Yet I also believe that the community here, would do such a person a great disservice, to facilitate that person in "fogging themselves" in the name of making them feel better about themselves... rather than saying the truth of, "no, you haven't done that. Now, understanding that you have not yet... what is your eyes-open choice?".

The community here is HERE because they're either working through attempting to rebuilding their marriages from infidelity, or have done so and are now posting here in attempt to help those that are working through this same process.

The reason that people here tend to 'ram it down their throat' is because they've seen time and again the same problem...BS's who come here, profess to use the MB principles to attempt to rebuild their marriage, but in reality do not do so. Instead, they 'pick and choose' what they WANT to do out of these tools...and they're almost always the ones who DON'T recover their marriages. They're convinced that they already know the right way to fix the problem...which often causes me to question why they come or remain on this site in the first place.

I'm one who's rammed a lot of this 'down your throat'. I'll freely step up to that. And I'll back that up with the same thing I've BEEN asking you. Since you've decided to do all of this YOUR WAY...where are you now in recovering your marriage compared to where you were when you came here and refused to follow the advice given? From what I can tell by your posts, I see complete stagnation. Not one bit of movement towards reconciliation or recovery.

That's why you don't get any traffic on your threads anymore, my friend. There's no helping someone who doesn't want help.

Exposure example:

So here is how I would phrase the response.

Techie I see how you think what you did is exposure. I think what they mean is exposing to the OP's spouse, work and anyone that could put preassure on them to stop the A.

Telling a complete stranger will not really help stop the A.


In your case I see what I have seen here in my brief time here. You like the support and an area to post your feelings and thoughts but you are not working the program.

I see Owl has given you advice that he tried to ram down your throat.

When I first came here Techie my sig line was. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

It looks like that is what you are doing. IMVHO. With your W, your M and in your posts.

I can argue that I am not a critical person but if everyone tells me I am. I probably am.

I may say I am not abrasive but if everyone tells me I am I probably am.

I don't think people dislike you here I think they are pointing out things to you that might help you in your life.

I engaged in this with you for a specific reason.

The reason being how far can we go to try to prove a point that can't really be proven.

I am now ready to say. Why?

Is it that important to be right and vindicated?

Someone asked at MB one time.

Would you rather be right or married?

I don't need to be right in this. It isn't that important to me.

Techie - you asked about your disrespectful judgments.

Try highlighting every single assumption you have made about people you're being confronted about? I'm not going to point them out because frankly, I think you genuinely don't realize how disrespectful you have been. I believe you are a genuinely good person with a good heart. You seem to love God and hate the idea that any marriage is beyond saving. I say you seem because I don't know you. I hope you understand that if I did not care about your success as a human being, and potentially your marriage, I wouldn't bother posting - your persistance at focusing on supposed shortcomings of women who you have demonstrated a sharp lack of compassion and empathy for the realities of their situation have angered me beyond belief. Several times, if not for my desire to protect these women from your overbearing judgments, I would have put you on "ignore" and just let you be.

All I do know is that rarely, since SNL and all his aliases was finally and completely banned from this web site a few years ago, has anyone aroused my own weakness of disrespectful judging. I have thought things I will not post, but you would do well to understand that if I feel this, just from reading a few of your posts (and I can get up and walk away at any time), imagine that if you do this to your wife, you have a root cause of YOUR neglect and abuse of your marital vows - to love and HONOR.

There is nothing that gives license to assume the tolerances, strengths and endurance of any other human being beyond yourself. I remember the phrase "Man looketh on the outward appearance, but God looketh upon the heart."

You are not God - you don't have that gift, and frankly, your focus and attention on the motes in other peoples' eyes has me worried that you struggle to see into your own heart.

Please consider spending some quality time with your Lord in prayer, after this one weakness - because it's a biggie.

If you take this post, and line by line, justify and turn this back on me - and how wrong I am, that's fine. But it will be my last feedback to you. Life is too short to feel my own words turned back on me and shoved down my throat. (In case you can't tell, my own marriage almost didn't last through my husband's very similar behavior - and bless his heart, he had enough caring for me and for our marriage, that he asked me, genuinely, from the heart - what the biggest lovebuster he did to me was - and eventually, this man, who in some ways is a giant in my eyes, overcame that weakness that at one time, he felt he had a license to do in the name of "radical honesty".)

Like I said, go through your own posts and practice identifying your own disrespectful judgments. Where you assume you know the person hasn't tried hard enough... Ask the question once if you must, but don't beat them again and again and again with the same assumptive question.

To avoid doing that myself - you'll either get it this time from me, or you won't. But I'm not going to beat you up anymore. 2x4 away. It's up to you whether or not you wind up on my ignore list. I'd rather be of support to you!

kayla.. I asked for you to give me a specific DJ, that you saw in my posts.
your context seemed to be of the posts I've made, in my own thread, in the last 48 hours.
you didnt give me one. instead, you just stuck to generalizations about me.


The thing about DJs is.. it is difficult for a person to see the ones they make. it can go much easier, if another person idenfies them.

you claim that you want to help me. but when asked for specific help... you dont give it.
Why is that?

-----

I call that a DJ from you, against me. you're talking about my assumptions.

Where have i, in the last month, said that someone hasnt tried 'hard "enough"'?

If i had said that, i agree that would be a DJ.
However, to my recollection, within the last month(?) I have said that people could have chosen to try more things.

"enough", is a value judgement.
"there are things you havent tried", is a statement of fact.
"you chose not to do xyz", is also a statement of fact, not a DJ, if they themselves have said words to that effect.

I honestly want to learn to communicate better, and avoid DJs.
Right now, I'm not seeing any from me recently. So if you truely wish to help me... please help me see one recently.
Dont be shocked if I wish to discuss why it is or is not one, though. Unless you believe that you are always right, and I'm always wrong, that is.

I didn't give specific instances because I feel strongly that I don't do you any favors by giving you answers that if you can find for yourself will make you a stronger marriage partner.

I would say that you have said MANY times in the last month in one way or another. Getting into semantics that you didn't say EXACTLY would simply negate the value this feedback could hold for you. Your responses that people could have chosen to try more things (that put their lives in danger) directly imply that they didn't do enough - according to your judgment. The last post you made on the thread you were asked to withdraw from was a repeat of this implication.

"There are things you haven't tried" implies that it would be advisable, safe, rewarding, correct... while what they have chosen to do is insufficient...? Get the judgment yet? This is in your most recent response on THIS thread. I don't have to go back months. Every single post you've made to defend your actions continue on that path that you know better than shelter counselors, police officers, social researchers, ministers, psychiatric hospital employees and others who have lived up-close and personal in an abusive relationship. How else could you suggest that a woman who is escaping violence needs to try one more thing before taking the actions she is now taking?

I'm a teacher and a counselor by profession. I'm accustomed to supporting someone in the learning process by NOT giving them direct answers.

In relationships, if you can't find the manner in which you offer disrespect, you can't fix it. That's why I didn't point out specifics.

Please note where you have taken my own words and turned them back on me, to note that my feedback is invalid. Are there DJ's in them? Are there mocking "tones" in your phrasing?

Splitting hairs over disrespectful judgments vs statements of fact won't restore your marriage. Do you really want to go there? Truly?

You also completely glossed over (or ignored) validation I offered you about your core intentions in order to take a shot at me in your last sentence. Don't go there if you want my continued support and help.

Oh - and btw, my signature line, is part tongue-in-cheek about an affectionate POJA my husband and I have with each other - not to be used to mock me with. Understand? There are other relationship skills that I haven't outlined here that I use frequently - "fail fast", "fall on my sword", "when I was wrong, promptly admitted it". Have you made assumptions about me as a person based on incomplete information, just as you may have made about two battered women on this discussion board? Which brings me back to the question I asked that you reposted here - why did you gravitate to these two women, who, had they taken your advice, could have lost their lives, and in fact, aren't out of danger yet!

small correction to start. it isnt just "my way". it's Steve Harley's way. So when you're knocking what I'm doing, please dont neglect to point out that you're knocking steve harley's advice to me as well.

that being said...


things arent where i'd like them to be, thats for sure.

but they are certainly better than back in july 2006.

Right now, things are in a decision point. she's "between boyfriends", it would seem.
So, it's time once again for her to choose whether to pick up one of the many online admirers she has... or give me a real chance at fulfilling that role in her life again.



5 months ago or whatever... i doubt she would have even considered me. my balance in her LB was that low. But now, maybe, she will.. after she's seen that her TWO last choices of alternatives to me.. werent really that great choices.
The last two, she has chosen to do the leaving (i think).



If she doesnt choose me this time... I'm not up for waiting another 3-6 months again.
It'll be really a shame if she chooses the poor-mans-clone of me, over me. There's this one guy panting over her, that kindasorta has a similar background to me, and follows her around. If she choses to pursue him now... well, it would be almost comical, if it wasnt irritating and insulting. 4 times, is way too many.

I didnt even notice it, when I wrote my prior post to you. although i find it interesting that you have it.

I wrote what I wrote, based on the way you talk to me. Which is further explained by what you wrote about your profession, above. You talk to me as "you're the 'professional', and I'm the ignorant layperson". or similarly, "you're the teacher, and i'm the ignorant child". ie: you're always right, so i must be the one who is wrong.

If it were otherwise, I would think you would be willing to discuss things on an equal basis. eg: "This is what I see you have written here. This says X to me. What do you have to say about it?"
and have an actual DIALOG about it.

Instead, you have usually written whatever you deem is "correct", and refused to have a two-way dialog that in any way gives credence to what I have written.
Your recent posts in here underscore that.
To paraphrase what you've written: "I've told you what you need to know. Now you go do your homework, like I've told you to, and see how right I am. No need to discuss; i've told you what you need to know"

You may "validate" my intentions, but you dont seem to give much of an ear to my words.



Please note that you have again refused to have a two-way dialog. You have shut me down, rather than respond to my comments on the way you have talked to me.


I responded to what you wrote. I asked for clarification.
You did not give me the same courtesy. Rather, you have made accusations that I am "mocking you, and turning your words against you", instead of responding to the content of my words.

To further respond to you:
I started the "about me" chunk of this thread, exactly as a response to what you wrote about me in the other thread. So the bulk of your question, is already answered, in great detail, a page back in this thread. Insomuch as the "gravitating" part, I think.

As far as "those women's lives were/are in danger"... my memory of things, is that , in the times I was actually making suggestions to them (rather than discussions about choices), my suggestions were for "plan B", rather than divorce. Or worst case, "plan B AND divorce". In both cases, I emphasized, MULTIPLE TIMES, that their safety was very important to me, and that if they truely believed they were in physical danger, they should {move out/get restraining orders/etc).

No-where did I write anything even hinting, "you should just keep trying to live with them no matter what they physically to do you".
Yes, I suggested they could keep working on their marriage.
No, I did not suggest that they put themselves in danger, to do so. In the more extreme case,.. for the most part, I wasnt even advocating that the woman even have extended dialog with her husband. I was advocating a completely dark plan B, where she did not see him or speak to him , for months, and also eliminate points of contact between them.
How can you accuse me of putting her in danger by that advice???

She has more contact with him now, than if she had followed my advice. She's still talking to him, etc. By inference of what you are saying, seems like, by your standards, she is in more danger now, than if she had followed my advice.

You say you want a discussion. I only see argument and debate and defensiveness.

I don't do those things. You have not once validated a single thing I have offered. Are you looking for help to recover your marriage? Are you looking to learn and overcome the things you did to weaken your marriage? By your responses, you only want agreement that what you are doing is healthy and good.

Yes - I am a professional - and I have a relatively healthy functioning relationship in my marriage. At one point I didn't. At one point, I was living in a shelter, filling out divorce paperwork. Is my marriage perfect. No. I still have seriously unmet emotional needs. So I work on myself, my acceptance of my husband's clinical depression and that he's doing all he can. Focusing instead on appreciation for the man that he is and the emotional needs he does meet, and doing everything in my power to meet his emotional needs. Our marriage is healthy enough though to give my husband that time to develop and grow through some of his difficulties (severe depression, unemployed or underemployed for 12 years, plus SA), and I love him dearly - and he loves me.

So I leave you with this. I'm not going to edit out anything I have given freely of myself here. You can come back and read it and when you are ready to see that you might not know all there is to know about healthy marriage relationships and you may have some things to learn from those who have recovered their marriages from the abyss, and there could be more that you could do to provide a mentally safe and healthy marriage partner to your wife.

Good luck.

But we all know, by your own admission, that there is something of significance regarding your situation that you have NOT told Steve Harley...I'd say that would render any advice that you are getting from him somewhat impotent...

And for the record, I too see EXACTLY what Kayla is talking about...You would be wise to REALLY look at yourself techie...Honestly, I feel your wife's frustration...still doesn't justify her cheating though...

Mrs. W

Techie,

I think what is being pointed out is something you should examine.

I had a really good post before but I lost it. Another example by the way of why sometimes there are contridicitons or errors.

My point is so much here is subjective or a judgement call.

For instance in your Sitch that you are going through. I would probably be pretty close to the final paperwork for a D. Only because I couldn't deal with what you are.

So does that make you better then me? NO. Does it make you worse then me? No.

Should I tell you that you are doing it wrong. You should expose and go into plan b and then plan D already.

Heck you should be divorced you have tried everything you could.

NO I SHOULDN'T because that is my judgment of you and your sitch.

I can say I would suggest ..... But I shouldn't say you have given way too much already. That is my judgment.

Everyone has their own Love Bank. You don't know what other peoples balances are. For all you know their love bank is full of IOU's. That the last deposit was so long ago it hurts. That what might look to you as an insignificant event is just really the last straw.

The last event in a M that just wasn't what it should have been.

So if you look at a statement and you disagree with it so be it.

When you tell someone. "I don't think...." you are probably judging.

When someone calls you out on it and tells you it bothers them sitcking them again with the same stick isn't a good idea.

My opinion is an appology was in order. Not more of the judgements.

Techie look through Rin's thread and read that what you said was a judgment not a fact. It was your opinion that she didn't do somehting. Since you don't know all of what anyone has done here.

Nobody to my knowledge has sat down and documented everything.

What is the difference between "discussion" and "debate"?
Why is one seemingly acceptible to you, and one is not?


I have said that I may well not be seeing DJs that I am making, and asked for help in identifying them. That is not merely "looking for agreement" in what I have said.


I will acknowledge that you partially replied to my request about pointing out DJs, even though you did it in a general way, rather than go over a specific post that I have made, as I requested.
My bad for not acknowledging that bit, at least.

You wrote:

Any advice, has the implication of, "This is what I think is best; you havent done it yet". If you follow the "trail of implications", you can use to get upset at anyone who gives advice, as "telling you what to do".
Even in that context, though, I have for the past few months, gone out of my way to say, "[this is what I see you havent tried, but it's totally up to you whether trying those things is right for you]". I put in wording, specifically to counteract the appearance of "this is what I think is best", and tried to couch it in terms of, "this is an option you haven't tried; what do you think about it?"

The primary, and only recent counter-example I can think of, is when someone claimed "I have done such-and-such", and I pointed out, "no, you havent". I definately wasnt in "presenting an option" mode. But nor was I in, "you should have done this" mode.
I went out of my way to say, "I'm not judging whether you not doing this is right or wrong... I'm just pointing out that you chose not to do it, when you claim you did."

------

Usually, there is a "DJ" wording of saying something, and a better way to say something.
What could I have said things differently, to convey the information, without it being a DJ, in your opinion?
This is why I asked for you to identify a specific post, lets say in the last month, that shows DJs from me.
I cant learn how to word things better, if you dont show me first the specific wording that is "bad", and why.. and then suggest better wording.
I used the best wording I could think of. Telling me in essence, "do better", isn't helpful, if I have no example of "better".

Question for clarification, frog:

Does my [edit] convey what you mean:


and an acknowledgement:
True... i was just using it as a convenient language tool to explain my motivations.
I shall restate, if you like, that my wife's treatment and reactions to me over the past few weeks, have been generally more positive towards me, than at any prior time I have seen. I find this encouraging, and hope that this means she really does feel better towards me these days, than she has in prior months.
There's still some actions of hers that I worry about... but only time will show whether the "worrying" things are here to stay, or the "positive" things are.

The child situation still sucks, though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I want to be with our children more.

Or the person didn't document it here.

Lets say you are on my thread and you don't read what I said I did that you are saying You think I didn't do. I acutally posted what I said I did that you said I didn't do. But then you said I didn't do what I said I did because you didn't hear me say I did say somewhere else.

For me I use IMVHO as a precurser to certain things I say that are stictly just my opinion nothing more nothing less.

Things that make sense to me to do but not everyone. The way I do them make sense for me but not for everyone.

I do not hold my own opinion in High regard either. For the reason that my Opinion is based on my life, and my experiances.

Heck it may be my opinion that it is better to Pee standing up. You can see how women may disagree with that opinion.