Hi Ace,

Not great. Maybe even worse than that at any point so far. I read these threads and when someone talks about having to follow their spouse or have them followed by a PI once they're in recovery, I always think to myself, “why put yourself through this, what are you doing? If you your spouse is so untrustworthy that you deem it necessary to have them spied on, LEAVE!!! Stop wasting your time on someone you can’t trust!”

Since DDay FWH agreed to stop going out to lunch with people from work on Fridays. OW resigned and left a few weeks ago, so FWH wanted to know if I felt okay with him going to lunch again. I said, fine, as long as it’s only men, and that none of the men are from their group of mutual friends. I said this for two reasons: 1) I don’t want OW being talked about and FWH finding out where she works/if she’s getting divorced etc. 2) I don’t want him hanging around with people who turned a blind eye while my husband was cheating on his pregnant wife. The two guys I specifically mentioned are also not great influences; they're often pressuring him to stay out late and drink too much, neither of them have settled down, just really not the sort of people we need around right now.
I said, that’s what I think, that’s what I would have a problem with, the rest is up to you. So of course he goes out to lunch with them. Nice. He explains that he doesn’t want to offend them. I feel like he would rather risk offending me that offending anyone else. Anyway, I tell him that that erodes my LB. He apologises and says he’ll try avoid it in the future. I let it go. We have a nice weekend.

Last night he had a work dinner. During the day, I tell him I’m feeling nervous about this whole thing to the point of actually being nauseous. He could be going to see her; I would be none the wiser. I joke and say he should watch out for the PI following him. I realise I really don’t trust him. I really no longer know what he is and isn’t capable of. This makes me really sad because he used to be such an inspiration in terms of his goodness and honesty. He was leagues ahead of anyone I had ever met. So virtuous. This reminds me of my statement above regarding lack of trust. He forwards the emails proving it’s a work do and who’s going. Offers to take photos with his phone to reassure me it’s all above board.

Anyway, I wake up at 1:40am from a dream about him apologising to me while picking up the phone to re-establish contact with OW. I feel sick. I’m half asleep, I realise I’m alone in bed. For a moment I wonder if we did get divorced in the end, and then I wake up properly and remember he’s just at the dinner. I check the time and now I’m cross. I phone him, he asks what the time is and says he had no idea it was so late. I want to slap him! Dinner was at 7, as if he doesn’t know the time! He is 20 minutes away by taxi, says he is leaving now but he finally gets home an hour and a half later at 3am. He says sorry, he feels a responsibility to spend time talking to the team of people he manages and goes to sleep. He works in IT in a corporate environment, what corporation expects their managers to team-build at 3am? As if! I have often felt jealous of the level of commitment he has to his job compared to me, and this just exemplifies it.

I think such behaviour after the recent revelation of a 2 year EA/PA, the blatant lies, the long period of shocking, deliberate dishonesty and deceit, shows that he just doesn’t value me, and frankly, I’m not even that upset anymore. I’m not surprised. I feel flat. I really thought he would do things to rebuild trust and to make me feel valued.

To go through the ****** that is the aftermath of an affair, only to be faced with the same **** as before, I am just not interested. Initially, after finding out about the affair, it didn’t affect how much I loved him, but I’ve been finding in the past few weeks, the little things that make me feel unvalued are just causing the love to pour out. I have been doing my damndest to work on my part of the pre-affair issues – showing care. I have been doing his ironing (if you knew me, you would now that this is a very big gesture!) I wake him up with coffee in the mornings, I buy and cook meat at dinner time (I’m a long time vegetarian, another very big deal). I’m trying really hard. And now this. The same issues, after he says he’s changed.

After explaining how uncomfortable I was with him going out, and trying to show trust by not phoning and checking up, I would have thought he’d show some sensitivity and make an effort to be home at a reasonable hour.

I feel very uncertain about our future.

If I’m rambling and paragraphs are haphazard, I apologise – typing with one hand with baby on my lap who is trying to type too!

If he was a complete [censored], it would be so much easier. He’s a great dad, he’s very helpful and involved with the kids. We have a really nice family life. He’s a good provider, except for the affair he’s always been a decent person. I’m just not sure that he will ever be prepared to meet my needs. I think that’s what it all boils down to. And I feel like after being forced to go through the nightmare of an affair, to settle for the same old **** as before, it’s just not worth it.

Thanks for the vent! I’m done whingeing!

I'll be praying for you today but I can't post from work. Don't give up, 1KW, and keep journaling your feelings even if you don't post them.

Ace

Your sitch is very similar to mine, except that my kids are much older. My husband is a corporate bigshot who also is a great dad and a great provider and a great husband - *when he's not at work.* But sadly he put Home in one box and Work in another and was determined to keep two completely separate lives. He convinced himself that whatever happened at work had NO effect on me whatsoever and was therefore a married man at home and a single guy at work.

Sound familiar? I take it you are crazy, controlling, jealous, paranoid, etc etc etc if you do not like this arrangement. Right?

You have to bust down this fantasy. Do whatever you can to make the worlds collide. That brings in a huge dose of reality to the fantasy he is living.

How does your husband feel about POJA, especially when it comes to his social life at work?
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

Yep, many things sound familiar. This one especially – what he does at work or in relation to work is none of my business/I’m not in his shoes so I don’t understand the corporate importance of socialising with colleagues/and anyway, since it doesn’t affect me it’s really none of my business. He hasn’t been for a while, but he is usually overseas, so as far as he’s concerned, his activities are even less of my business. He doesn’t like the idea of POJA because he feels that I “never compromise” and he always ends up having to give up everything and gets nothing in return.

Mulan,

How does one make the worlds collide?

Oh, I get told mostly that I'm ungrateful. Most men don't help out with the kids as much as he does, and his job provides us with a great lifestyle. I should just keep quiet and be grateful.

Look up at the top of this page. Click on "Articles". Then go to "Why Women Leave Men."

Your WH is trying to keep you in one room of the house, just as mine did. Read that article and you will know exactly what I mean.
Mulan

This was true for me as well. I couldn't bear the thought of living out the rest of my days/marriage with that niggling thought in the back of my mind... what if? So, I've settled it in my heart. IF it were to happen again, I would walk away. The end. After all this time in recovery, FWH knows it too. I'm not the same person I was before, I'm much better, stronger and wiser-- and our marriage is better for it.

My first instinct is "Danger Will Robinson" but you know him better than any of us do.

one - you have a long road in front of you. Your WH has a sweet, sweet arrangment going here what with being married at home and single at work, and it's going to take one h*ll of a lot to turn this around.

You've got to understand that "it hurts me" will mean NOTHING to him and will NEVER be reason enough for him to change.

Only when "it hurts HIM" will he change the way he is living.

What you really need is a good dark Plan B in a situation like this - dealing with a hardcore fence-sitting cake-eater, because that's what he is - but with your situation I'm betting you're not able to do that. The next best thing is the 180, which is what you do if you cannot or will not go to Plan B.

Just remember that he will continue to eat cake as long as you are serving it up.

Try having a very calm and frank discussion with him ONE TIME about this. Then, when that makes no difference - and it won't, but you've covered yourself - go to the 180:

*****************************************
THE 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Hi Mulan,

I can see the merit in doing a 180 but the idea of it is very depressing to me! It seems like game playing. I just want a healthy, mature relationship with someone who wants the same thing. I’m willing to work on my stuff. Having to do a 180 or Plan B seems like wanting your marriage intact at all and any personal cost. It seems from the outside like fighting for someone that doesn’t even want you.

What did you do in your situation? Where are you at now? If it worked, how long did it take? My husband is also PA and even admits it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to email me. I really appreciate your input and can use as many different perspectives as possible. I hope you don’t think that I’m disregarding your advice, I’m not at all. I’m just discussing and trying to get more input and writing down the things that pop into my head.

1K1
It is not a game 1K1! Plan B to me not about the WW, It is about me and protecting me from further hurt and damage the WW can cause. It is about my recovery from the horror of it all, be it the M recovery or simply my own...

I will recover, I will be ok, with or without the WW.

Plan B is taking back and owning my power from the WW, it is about controling what I can control (Me) and accepting what treatment I will/will not accept...

It helps to have a strong Intermeadatory (tnx Dog for being strong when I am weak)

Like Dr Phil says the only person I can control is myself.

Jim

I totally agree with what Jim said. This is no game. This is a very serious effort to save a family and make a marriage strong.

Things got better for me when I finally understood what P/A behaviour is and starting dealing head-on with that. THEN the MB principles could work.

If you believe your WH is P/A, then please read the links in my sig line. The MB thread is long but worth every word. Then come back here and ask whatever questions you have.

Good luck -
Mulan