I was in a long-term marriage that was literally controlled by my wife about many subjects. Not because she was adamant and trying to push her way, but because she so readily said "NO" to the things that I wanted in our marriage -- more sexual intimacy, more kissing, more trips away together, etc. We discovered this site (and the His Needs/Her Needs book), but my wife ignored all the basic principles EXCEPT she LOVED the Policy of Joint
Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If a couple were to follow that strictly, then the person who has a tendency to say "NO" to things together is always going to get his or her way. Right? Because this policy dictates that one person or the other can’t do anything unless you both agree enthusiastically. Well if one person is not prone to "enthusiasm", and they tend to be more passive aggressive by dominating the relationship through their "NO's", then the "YES" or "LET's" person will not ever get his or her way and the investment in the relationship will stop.

No I think the secret of this is that this is only one principle among MANY. But when you get around a person who focused on this (which an analytical "NO" person like my ex-wife will naturally gravitate towards), it will only entrench them in this behavior. And there's nothing I can say that can change that.

Is my understanding wrong on this? Is there someone out there who can straighten me out?

Since this time, I am really now looking for someone who has a tendency to say enthusiastic "YES's" to me (and me to her) who seeks my best interests as much as I seek hers. But over the long-term that is hard to find.

Anyway, it's a question I've always had, so I thought I would ask it and see what the better marriages and people who have found and sustained love would say about it.

Thanks for listening!

-David-

Yes, it can certainly seem that way if the negotiation process screeches to a halt before it's finished. We've had several convos about this very subject on the Emotional Needs forum.

The nay-sayer does have a lot of power. However, if the other spouse says "well, I'm not comfortable NOT doing these things...," then negotiations must continue. Obviously, the idea of POJA is for BOTH spouses to be happy, not as a control-game always won by the nay-sayer.

Hi David,

In my opinion,I also have had a hard time with this concept as well as other's.

I would like to think that it isn't so much about control as about being respectful of eachother's feelings about marital issues.But I also have witnessed what I feel is an overboard type of mentality that doesn't always allow a person to be an individual.

Independent behavior doesn't always help marriages but I think you have to look at the context.For example,if my BF liked to go bike riding and I didn't,I wouldn't mind at all if he went as long as it didn't prevent us from having enough quality time with eachother.I think overall POJA is meant to prevent hurt feelings and to come to a compromise on issues.So if my BF's bike riding did interfere with our time,we could bring up this policy.

You also have to keep in mind that your choices can affect more than just feelings.Another example is my exH once came home with a 1964 classic corvette convertible.Shiny red,gorgeous.But did he ever talk to me about getting it? Nope.Did he question the affect it would have on our finances.Not sure.If he did think about it,he didn't care.He just drove it home one day.No clue at all.Looking back,I was ok with it as we were financially stable and it made him happy but that is a big example of independent behavior that in another marriage might not have gone over well at all.

You could essentially POJA every little detail in life and that, I think, is overboard.You become less of yourself if you have to ask for "permission" for any activity you would like to do.In that sense,I would feel suffocated.

If you have a spouse or BF/GF saying no to everything for control of you, that isn't right.That's not the intent of POJA.I think it's a balancing act really.When my marriage was good,my exH did things with my approval because it made him happy and I didn't feel it was intruding on our life,etc.I also had hobbies and activities I did,like swimming,that he didn't mind that I did on my own.It was easy going.

I don't think you are wrong for questioning this.I also have a big problem with the length of the plans here re: infidelity but that's me.There are some diehard MB posters who feel they must follow the principles exactly.As much as I do like many of Dr.Harley's concepts,I don't agree with everything and I have tried to use what I can in my own life to make it better.

Sorry that was so long winded.Hopefully other's will be along soon.

Hi David,

If I get you right, you think a valid POJA conversation goes something like this:

You: "Hey, let's go to the movies tonight!"
She: "No, I don't want to."
You: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
You: "Well, since we're POJA-ing, I guess we'll just have to stay home if you're not enthusiastic."

And then, you'll stay home, watch TV, putter around with hobbies/kids/pets/videogames. She'll be happy, you'll be bored. She gets her way. Right?

Dr. Harley, however, says that you should do NOTHING until there is a mutually enthusiastic agreement. So no watching TV, puttering around and doing your own things either! A POJA-conversation should not default to the status quo, unless you both agree that's what you want.

So, on this subject, a POJA-convo could go something like this:

You: "Hey, let's go to the movies tonight!"
She: "No, I don't want to."
You: "Shucks. What do you want to do?"
She: "The usual, just each of us do our own thing."
You: "Hmm. Well, I´m not too enthusiastic about that, really. So, the problem is, you don't want to go to the movies and I'd like to do something out of the house. I guess we just have to sit here until we figure out something we´re both happy with. Any ideas? Maybe we can go ice-skating intead?"

Which is basically my long-winded way of saying ´you don´t have to agree to anything YOU´re not enthusiastic about, either!´ That just causes resentment. Of course, going to the movies is a lot easier to negotiate than ´more kissing,´ but I do think the same rules apply.

(Still easier said than done, though. You have to be convinced that it´s worth going to the trouble of having long conversations to get what you want. My SO tends to be overwhelmed by long conversations, and when we´re POJA-ing, he forgets to say ´I´m getting tired of this, let´s come back to it tomorrow,´ and instead chooses to agree to something he´s not happy with. Of course, after a while it doesn´t get done or he does it resentfully, and that´s about when I notice he lied about being enthusiastic in the first place.)

If POJA is followed in conjunction with other basic concepts, I think the power is equally distributed. The problem really was your ex didn’t really embrace the whole concept. She just liked the part where she never again had to do anything she didn’t feel like doing. (Actually, POJA doesn’t even say that. It speaks to enthusiastic agreement. I may enthusiastically agree to go to the mountains to look at condos even though I don’t really feel like it. Why? Because I knew how important it was to my boyfriend, and I figured I’d have fun once the trip got underway. I did, too. I didn’t resent it at all.)

My ex just flat out disagreed with the concept. Even in theory. And he certainly didn’t want it applied to him. After about a year, I found out what you found out. If only one person is following the POJA, it doesn’t work.

I brought up MB and POJA in counseling and suggested we give it a try. W rejected the idea entirely.

Looking back it is kind of funny. It sounded great to me because it would have injected fairness into a situation where I felt fairness had been badly lacking. Thus I had everything to gain. W apparently perceived enforced "fairness" to be a loss for her, so she rejected it.

This in itself tells an entire story! You can't solve control/balance problems if fairness seems unfair to one person.

I got a chuckle ('cuz I'm an irony lover) out of your post, IIWII...interesting acronym, too.

I'm really grateful that in our MC session, we were told "There are three parts of a marriage. You, DH and The Marriage. You can do for the marriage what you don't feel like doing for DH."

This really diluted our power struggles. And helped greatly with POJA...because the marriage is the enthusiastic choice we both make...POJA is like the details.

Not me against him...or him against me. There's a triangle...not a tug o' war.

I may get really resentful and demanding...the marriage doesn't. The union says that my happiness is intertwined with DH's...not giving to get...just interdependent. His desires matter as much as mine do. Two-way street.

Removes the control issue entirely...for we both believe that no human can control another and neither of us can control the marriage...equal halves.

Maybe that was the base belief which leads to a lot of issues in marriages...that we can control, manipulate, force, cause...so we can have the power to cure.

Wondering aloud here.

Not fairness (consideration). Awareness (holding your equal desires with your partners). Not one person bogarting...nor one triumphing. No bad guy in marriage. Just a lot of false beliefs and bad choices.

LA

LA - If both you and your spouse engage in negotiation strategies based on a common set of beliefs and a two-way street model, then my hat's off to you.

That's a luxury I dream of. During counseling my W stated that she believes that to compromise is to lose. Sadly her behavior is consistent with her philosophy. A year and a half of counseling made not a dent.

My username simply reflects my resignation and acceptance. Change is only possible when it is desired.

IIWII,

Sounds to me like where you are now is where we were then...

I would rather have been right than married.

Until someone posed that question to me here on MB.

Was it good counseling for a year and a half?

How much did you change?

On another post, you said you were on the verge of filing.

Would you hold yourself to not doing that unless you were really enthusiastic about divorce?

Most of my atrocities were done when my focus was fully on my DH, not on my self. When I switched my focus, I changed my life.

LA

LA

While I appreciate your good intentions, your pollyanna-ish viewpoint seems both condescending and naive. If your marriage is improving then good for you - you are one of the lucky ones. But don't project your situation onto others.

Why do you assume it is about being "right"? Defining a conflict you know nothing about as a matter of "being right vs being married" is a false choice along the lines of "have you stopped beating your wife?"

Speaking of which, I doubt you would ask "would you rather be right or be married?" to someone in a physically abusive relationship. As mentioned on the other thread there are all kinds of abusive behaviors - not all are physical.

Without delving into our whole story, let's just say that my W and I are very different people and have different values - which on its own is manageable if two such people are capable of compromise. My W is unable (or at least unwilling) to compromise, and she also has very real problems seeing the world objectively. Not seeing it the way I see it - seeing it objectively. If you have not dealt with someone like this it is very hard to appreciate how difficult it is.

I'll give one example of the challenge. She is a major packrat. She has turned our bedroom into a landfill. There is clutter 4 feet deep in some areas. She literally has to walk over stuff to get to her desk. The bed is an island in a sea of clutter. She doesn't see this as odd or problematic. This is all her stuff. If I touch it I am violating her stuff. Much of the house is also this way. I DESPISE this. I am very non-materialistic and clutter is revolting to me. So, what is a fair compromise? Only 2 feet of clutter? Even if this was rational (which it is not) she would not agree to it because it is a compromise and would require her to give up some of this stuff (which is mostly junk that she doesn't use or need - but that's rational thinking and has no bearing). Keep in mind this is just a single example - we have major issues in other areas as well.

Our counselor was excellent. This was a year and a half of 3 hours a week. It took him about a year to get really frustrated with her skewed perspectives and passive-aggressive responses. He finally started to appreciate what I was dealing with. Eventually it became clear to me that the counseling was not helping our relationship and we stopped. We came to about 3 compromises during that time, and all 3 were abandoned by my W after counseling ended.

Have I changed? I think so. Because her ways seemed irrational to me I used to want to convince her so and get her to change her ways. I got frustrated by not being able to find the right words, the right analogy, the right evidence, the right argument to convince her. Now I accept that she is the way she is, that she simply sees the world in a different way than I do and has no desire to change, and I just want to get away from her.

My focus has changed too - I have aligned my expectations with the reality of my relationship, and now I don't get so frustrated. But along the way my heart slammed shut. I'm a much happier person, but I am completely emotionally detached from my W. We have even slept in separate rooms for almost 2 years.

Divorce is not something I could ever be fully "enthusiastic" about - I certainly see it as a failure. But the alternative is to stay in a miserable situation with no hope of improvement - and live in ways that I find disgusting. On the other hand, I do look forward to getting away from what I feel is a very unhealthy, stressful, chaotic way of living. This choice is a shame - but that doesn't change the reality of the reasons for making this choice.

Oh - and just so this doesn't become a total thread hijack - the clutter example I cited here is a good example of the veto power the "No" person has in POJA. I want the clutter reduced. She says "no". Well actually she comes up with excuses but when nothing happens over the span of years effectively this just amounts to "no". (However we have no POJA in place - as I mentioned previously) Point is, even if she agreed to it, her "no" would be the trump card because it perpetuates the status quo. Likewise, if I throw out all the clutter against her wishes my "yes" would triumph. Of course this would be seen as a violation of trust. Odd how an action against one person's will would be considered such a violation, but inaction against other other person's will might not be.

IIWII,

My reference to "do you want to be right or be married" was from your quote here:

"my W stated that she believes that to compromise is to lose."

I didn't perceive you to be of this mindset. I skipped the important part in my post...to me, win/lose was the same as right/wrong for me. To lose, was to lose my self. To act wrong was for my very self to BE wrong.

Very tough to let go. Very tough to change. I was relating to your wife.

I found this perspective, this instinct in myself, to be very much like an addiction.

As for the incredible clutter...did your counselor ask your wife to see a doctor about OCD and depression for evaluation and therapy? I don't believe people can POJA addictions.

My reference to being enthusastic about divorce is from Harley. What I interpreted him to mean was divorce is a final boundary enforcement...the end of a long line of predetermined, progressive ones. Had to come from respect...your wife makes her choices, controls her stuff, not yours...divorce as an act of honor and love.

"your pollyanna-ish viewpoint seems both condescending and naive."

My late mother worked very hard to rid me of what she saw as me being pollyanna, when I was young. You really nailed me with that one. Felt like a stab. Thank you. I think you hit something here...whereas I thought my deep belief in saving marriages came from my experience...may also be coming from that little girl LA, who through terrible crap kept believing it was all for a purpose...for a reason...a key to something unobtainable except through the crap.

As to any extreme, pollyanna point of view is dangerous. Does harm. No consideration of the bright side means no balance, either. In the middle, though...potent ownership of the right now, right here.

Like a POJA on the inside.

What I heard in your original post was that you see your wife, as davidinsandiego did, controlling your marriage.

You wanted an injection of fairness.

Not about parntering...about control. That's what I related to very much. Why I posted to you. A power struggle.

And I very much related to your wife and saw you more as my DH.

In counseling, my DH disovered all the ways he constantly controlled...mine was overt...his, covert.

Since we always have equal halves in marriage, neither one can truly control the whole marriage...unless one of the partners gives their power to the other...and power struggles are the giving away of inherent power. An illusion.

My concern is for your marriage right now, and any relationship, if you divorce, you'll have in the future...because we take this chosen perspective with us. Which is why I asked how much you have changed.

And you responded that you now choose to accept your wife for the way she is, and respect the way she chooses to see the world differently than you do as her choice. What I don't understand is from this huge act of respect, that you then chose to emotionally detach yourself from your wife, rather than loving detachment. I don't see where you own your own choices...and the critical one, choosing to focus on you, not on her...on your own code, not on possible response.

"Because her ways seemed irrational to me I used to want to convince her so and get her to change her ways. I got frustrated by not being able to find the right words, the right analogy, the right evidence, the right argument to convince her."

This very much was me, also. I relate deeply to your frustration. And I heard it in your first response on this thread, as well. I remember. That frustration was a grinding pain in me.

Alanon was how I got to respectful acceptance (which isn't approval). So I could accept who (not what) my DH truly is, see his choices in his actions, and respect his stuff (his feelings, thoughts, perspectives and perceptions) as his, separate from mine.

I believe loving detachment is essential in breaking power struggles...and enforcing boundaries. Thank you for helping me to see these tied together.

I think that's why divorce as the final boundary enforcement makes sense...because you could be enthusiastic if you had no doubt you did all you could, entirely your half, tried every avenue, learned a lot about yourself. So you won't repeat this cycle, this pattern, having believed it who you chose, not who you chose to be.

"My focus has changed too - I have aligned my expectations with the reality of my relationship, and now I don't get so frustrated. But along the way my heart slammed shut. I'm a much happier person, but I am completely emotionally detached from my W. We have even slept in separate rooms for almost 2 years."

This part I don't understand. I see focus as where we choose our thoughts to dwell. I focused on DH's stuff and actions...not my own. That was the shift I was referring to...holding myself to my code.

I'm not worrying about threadjacking...the originator didn't come back after April...didn't respond to those who responded to his post. I see you renewing life to a thread foresaken.

LA

P.S. You edited the last paragraph of your post as I was responding. I want to add that I understand P/A behaviors really well...for the ones I did and the ones my DH did. I didn't just feel frustration in his broken promises...much as you describe about hers...I felt betrayal, pain, huge fear and hatred that my DH would not keep his word. Our MC really helped with that, I think. When I owned my part...my choice to not believe his promises and to ask none of him...our marriage changed a lot. I hear you.

LA

Sorry for misinterpreting who your "right vs married" comment was directed at.

The counselor likened the clutter issue to a sickness but didn't go so far as to suggest that she seek professional help. I have suggested it, but she denies that a real problem exists so won't consider it. I said she makes excuses. To me they seem like excuses, but to her they are realistic explanations. She'll get it cleaned up soon - as soon the kids go back to school, as soon as the kids are done with school, as soon as the holidays are over, etc.

The fact that the day never comes doesn't occur to her as a manifestation of sickness - it is just that she's busy with other things. Meanwhile, over the course of two decades I have been forced to live with both the stress of the clutter and the feeling of betrayal that no matter how I scream out my agony over this, she doesn't seem to notice or care.

To your comment about control and power vs partnering - I agree balance is key. I do perceive that my W has exerted more control in our relationship using her veto power - thus making me miserable. I don't wish to reverse it and hold power over her thereby making her miserable. Balance sounds good to me. But I have learned thru experience that this is unlikely to occur - so my defense mechanisms have kicked in.

As you might imagine, similar issues of irrational behavior and conflict exist beyond the clutter, particularly in finances and SF. Also she had an EA a few years ago, so there is a deep thread of perceived betrayal that has badly poisoned the well of our relationship.

To elaborate on the focus issue: I have had to focus a lot on her behaviors out of self protection. She is financially irresponsible and sometimes reckless. I have had to learn to play defense to avoid financial disaster and to avoid being constantly stressed out. I am simply tired of having an adversarial instead of a partner relationship.

The clutter creates all sorts of problems, and there are limits to what I can do without violating her trust. So I have had to learn to ignore some of it to avoid constant distress. But by doing so I have also become an enabler. When I moved out of the bedroom 2 years ago it was partly out of general relationship withdrawal, but also because I was so sick of waking up in that dump every day. I told her so. It is the same wreck today that it was then. Message received. She asked me once if I would come sleep in the bedroom - and this is a quote: "I can clear you a spot". I declined without any comment - though I had to bite my tongue - and focused only on my issue, not hers.

As you mention in your postscript, you chose not to believe your H's promises and to ask none of him. This sounds much like my withdrawal. I have resolved to no longer put myself at my W's mercy on these issues. But in the absence of a shared negotiating model (i.e. two-way street or POJA) that we can both live happily with, and being unwilling to turn the tables and force my way on her - my only option seems to be to retreat and free us both to live the way we want.


I suppose you could look at it that way. I'd prefer balance borne of partnership. In desperation I'd be willing to live with balance borne of following a set of rules (ala POJA) that provide a framework for fairness. Unable to get even that I just want out.

I've lived with cluttery people, and it's a problem that can be managed easier than most problems. I used to put their stuff in a box, and when they want to dump it out to find something, and left it there when they left the house, I put it back into the boxes again. And then if they wanted help putting away a box, I'd set a timer so I wouldn't feel overwhelmed. After that the rest goes back in the box.

In your case you may have a stack of boxes against the wall. Over time it grows to where most boxes go into storage. Cheaper than a divorce!

*sigh* The problem with trying to describe the situation I live with is that words don't do it justice. Without pictures the scope of the issue is hard to appreciate. It would take many dozens of boxes to do what you describe - but be that as it may, the issue I have with such a solution is this:

It doesn't actually deal with the problem - the clutter is still there, it is just better contained. The root problem here is NOT a storage problem, it is an accumulation problem.

We could also build a warehouse in the backyard. That would "solve" the problem if you narrowly see the problem as simply a space issue.

The real problem is what seems to be a sickness that is driving the irrational accumulation of stuff and the inability to throw stuff out - even worthless junk.

With this "sickness" clutter piles up - every horizontal surface gets packed with as much stuff as it holds. Drawers, cupboards, closets, even whole rooms get filled with junk so that they no longer can be used. Every shelf in the house and garage is already full of boxes.

If 15 teacups is a nice collection, 100 must be better. A nice selction of teas? How about 1000 teabags? Having a few snacks around is nice, having a few hundred is better. Buying an occasional bag of candy for the candy dish is nice, buying 8 pounds is better. See the problem?

Now, if I too was a packrat and was comfortable with this lifestyle then there really would be no problems at all. But I find this disgusting and sick and it violates deep emotional needs for me.

I dealt with it as a roommate or a relative, where I didn't own the house, so maybe I was more detached to where I could stick it in a box and not have to look at it and then I didn't really care because it's not like I was stuck with it the rest of my life.

I understand that it is a deeper problem. And the POJA doesn't help with those bigger problems. And that it's probably enabling to box up the stuff for a person. I'm just asking you to try it for two weeks, and see if it helps you feel more comfortable about living in the house.

Like asking a smoker to smoke outside. It doesn't change the fact the person is ruining their health. But it makes an unlivable situation one that no longer impacts the other people in the house. Turns it into a victimless crime.

If my H told me that he's going to put a storage shed out back and fill it to the top with junk I don't think that would drive me nuts. Especially if he told me he was going to rent off-site storage and fill it up with junk. I might think it's wierd (DJ) or unhealthy but it wouldn't ruin my life. But I remember living with the stuff all over the place and that disgusted me until I put it out of my eyesight.

Did you ever check out Flylady.net? She'd help you get a lot of patience and empathy for that hoarding business. I don't think that's a problem that you can fix for her but you can manage it successfully if you're willing to try.

I'll admit it, one of my best friends and her H have hoarding issues. They have offsite storage full of stuff. Their house and car has some clutter too but they manage it. They have this issue but they are the nicest friends you'd ever want to meet. And they do amazing things to help the community too. I think this issue stems from perfectionism.

We go on vacation with them, and they pack a ton of stuff, and buy more when they get there. What do we care? We go to the park ourselves and meet them later when they get there. We have so much fun with them. My H and I pack very light, and if we forget anything, we can ask them instead of going to buy it.

EO,

I love flylady.net! Their CHAOS (Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome) concept fits us to a T. One way the clutter has really affected us over the years is socially. It is truly embarrassing to have people over.

Off-site storage would not work here. My W wants everything where it is "convenient". Her notion of convenience is backward to mine. For example, she wants the pie pans and other things that get used only a couple times a year to be in the same cupboards as the everyday stuff. But of course there isn't room for all that so everything gets jammed in and inconvenience is a daily experience. But she flips out the couple times a year that she needs something if I have moved it downstairs. Even though I am more than happy to go get it - she hates that it isn't right there where she wants it.

Merely boxing up the clutter (even if she would allow that) doesn't solve the problem like sending a smoker outside. The stuff is still there - just in boxes!

The other danger I see to an approach like this, is that it somehow validates the irrational. As though having all that stuff is perfectly normal and healthy - not having boxes for all that stuff is the real problem. It misses this point.

There is a website called freecycle.net where you can post your stuff and people will come pick it up at your convennience. You know, the other hoarders in your area. Maybe then again that would be a bad idea to get your W involved in that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Or you could put it for sale on ebay. My brother does this, and it helps him get the stuff going out the door faster than it comes in. Because the cash in hand is more incentive than paying for stuff.

Also, put the credit cards and ATM cards in the freezer in a ziplock with water, and just carry cash. Ask her to limit her cash in her wallet to like $10 at a time, and keep the rest at home. I like to buy cheap stuff that I have no need for, too, but if I know it would make me broke later in the day I can avoid it. I'm fine with credit cards now, but that helped me at first.

And my H throws the kind of stuff I pick up at the dollar store out if I'm not looking. It used to bother me, but we talked about it and he explained how it makes him uneasy so I told him it's okay to throw it out but tell me first, so I have a little time to give it to my neighbor or something. That works really well for us. He hasn't seen anything to throw away anything in a long time.

Also we have moved a lot, unrelated to the stuff issue. I hate that, but it does minimize the stuff!

What would your W think about moving to a smaller place that's easier to keep a handle on? Instead of seeing all this empty space to fill?

"The other danger I see to an approach like this, is that it somehow validates the irrational. As though having all that stuff is perfectly normal and healthy - not having boxes for all that stuff is the real problem. It misses this point."

Irrational feels like a DJ term to me, so I'll avoid it. Her instincts would serve her very well if she was living in USA 1929, trying to scrape through the Great Depression; she could sell this stuff for money to feed you guys with. I would say that it isn't very functional for you or I. Maybe it's worth the extra trouble for her.

Have you ever seen the show, Clean Sweep? Seems like you could do something like that, a massive weekend effort, even sending her away like they do on the show, and then once she gets back, decide together that it's so nice having folks over whenever you want to your new clean house that you're going to do that twice a week. Or rent out the extra rooms in the house. Have you ever asked her if she'd like that show to come out? It'd be a great low-pressure conversation starter.

I think the key is that she's not ready to do this HERSELF yet, because it seems so overwhelming because she's never been successful before, but maybe she'd be enthusiaastic about someone else doing it for her.

Hmm - we seem to be stepping on each other's posts...


All of your suggestions are great - assuming that A) she agrees there is a problem, and B) is willing to do something about it. Neither of those things is true.

She is not overwhelmed. She doesn't think there is a problem.

She would NOT be enthusiastic about someone else doing it for her - she would be seethingly angry. That would be an act of war.