Okay, here is the second thread as a split off from JJ's thread. We can continue the discussion here.

What's the discussion about?

I haven't been reading the OTHER THREAD.

Just talking about what the Bible speaks of concerning what is a marriage, who may divorce, how that is done, who may remarry, etc.

I will post what I did on the other thread...so that we can begin there with the discussion.

I am borrowing much of this from a few sermons and studies that were well done and cover this ground adequately.

The first issue to all of this is to understand why God created marriage in the first place. From a sermon I heard awhile back, the pastor had rolled this into three reasons why God created marriage:

1. Procreation. Many people out there think that this admonition was because God wanted us to add more humans to the Earth. Nope! God wanted us to add more Christians to the Earth. More children raised under His Law and His commands. Genesis 1:28 covers this. It is God wanting His people to expand and have dominion over the Earth.

2. Divine Illustration. A marriage is supposed to model the relationship between Christ and the Church. A marriage that works under the same relationship Christ has with the Church ends up being a great example of Christ and His relationship with believers. A marriage that is not doing so is a bad example of this. And a divorce is no example of this!

3. Self-realization. This is where we get happiness in marriage from. Remember, there are two reasons above that have NOTHING to do with being happy or finding a soulmate, etc!! But in the third, marriage is about completing the other person. About that person being more than who they are alone. Remember, God says that when He joins a husband and wife together, they become one flesh. One living entity. Only broken by death. In Genesis 2:18, God said He created Eve for Adam because Adam was not complete. Marriage is supposed to complete the other person.

Because God set these three goals/purposes for marriages, He needed to make sure marriages were protected and boundaries put in place. This is where the concept of covenant comes in.

Next post...the marriage covenant.

In Malachi, God outlines that marriage is a covenant:

So, what is a covenant? Well, it is a contract of sorts. Legally binding. But a covenant has an added part (which is why it is a covenant and not just a contract). And that is that a covenant is a relationship contract. In a contract, it outlines how people will pay, or perform services, etc. A covenant outlines how people will relate and get along with each other.

Now, once we understand that a covenant is a legally binding relationship, then what do we need to know about the marriage covenant?

Well, first, we need to make sure we understand that the marriage covenant is a legal relationship set-up by God.


In Hebrew, the word witness means a legal accuser. In the case of what He was saying in Malachi, God was stating that He has seen their breaking of the Law and is now an accuser against them. He is standing in court, bearing witness to them breaking their covenant with God and their spouse.

As was said above, marriage is a covenant made under divine law. We can make and break all the laws we want on Earth. But only God has authority over His laws. Matthew 19:6 bears this out:

But here is what we do. We go to the Church (and God) to marry us...but we go to the courthouse to have man divorce us. Here is the problem with such flawed thinking...it is that we want God to bless the judge's decision, even if it is in direct violation of God's laws! Here is a great quote: "When a human being in a black robe bangs a gavel and says, Divorce granted, God does not automatically nod in agreement. If the grounds for divorce don't measure up in God's eyes, the Lord will ignore the judge's decree, leaving you...from God's point of view...just as married as ever."

Which is what a lot of the passages Noodle stated outline...that if a man puts his wife away (divorces her) for other than Scriptural grounds, then God still sees the first marriage as valid.

Now, the second thing to understand after getting the fact that marriage is a legal relationship established by God, is that the marriage covenant functions under authority. A covenant would be non-enforceable if there was no authority involved in the relationship. 1st Corinthians 11 outlines the chain-of-command in a marriage. Christ is over ever man, the husband is over the wife and God is over Christ. Children are to submit to the authority of their parents. So, the point here is that all authority rests in God...He is at the top. And this applies to marriage. What we want, what we feel...are all secondary issues!!!

The third thing to remember about a marriage covenant is that all covenants are broken under the penalty of death. When a man or woman breaks any covenant with God, they die immediately. Right there! That instant!! Here is the Biblical reference for this:
Now ask yourself this question...if God said that when/if Adam ate of the tree, that he would die that instant...then why didnt Adam die that instant? Well, he did...just not the way we expect. Adam was kicked out of the Garden. He was removed from the presence of God. Their relationship was broken. He hadnt physically died. But He did indeed die!! A spiritual death.

Spiritual death is separation from God. That is the definition. When we break a covenant with God, we are immediately separated from Him. And once we are separated from God, we are dead.

The fourth thing to understand about the marriage covenant is that there is a cause and effect between our faithfulness to the marriage covenant and our relationship with God. In Malachi 2:13-14, the people are weeping and groaning because God is ignoring their offerings. This is the effect of them not upholding the marriage covenant. With dealing treacherously with their wives. Even in the New Testament, we find the same conclusions:


God is saying that if a husband does not dwell with his wife in this way, then his prayers will be stopped (ignored). Cause and effect.

Satan likes to make us think this is not true. Or that it doesnt happen immediately. In Genesis 2:4, he tells Eve "you shall not surely die." And the lie continues to this day!!

The last thing to understand about the marriage covenant is that it is a means where God transfers blessings. In Deuteronomy 28: 1-4, God outlines what He means:




And then most of the rest of the chapter lists out a whole bunch more blessings. And then God says:



And then He goes on to list a whole bunch of curses.

So, God is giving us a choice here. If you uphold the covenant, you get blessings. If you break it, you get curses. Cause and effect.

So, Malachi 2:16, "I hate divorce" takes on a new meaning in light of all of this. it has nothing to do with whether a husband and wife live together or what happens to the kids or if we can make it financially. God says He hates divorce because it is a breaking of a covenant.

Okay, next stop is to discuss the Biblical grounds for divorce.

This next question is beginning to get at the heart of the debate here.

When is a marriage legitimately and Biblically dead? What ends the marriage in the sight of God?

In Matthew 19:3, the Pharisees were asking this exact question when they cornered Jesus. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?"

Well, folks...this debate we are having has been going on forever. In Jesus time, there were two main camps of thinking on this matter. First was those that followed Rabbi Hillel, who stated that a man could divorce his wife for any cause. He might not like the way she cooks his eggs...so out she goes!

The second school of thought was Rabbi Shamai, who said that there is only one permissible reason for divorce...and that is immorality.

What the Pharisees wanted Jesus to do was to decide which camp was right. And Jesus responds by opening Scripture:


There are three points to get out of this. First, God created them. Second, God married them. And third, He made them one flesh.

You see, the Pharisees wanted Jesus to make a ruling on divorce...but Jesus made it clear that there is no way you can understand divorce until you understand marriage.

But of course, the Pharisees kept up the challenge. They asked Him:


They wanted to know...if God had made it so hard to divorce, why had Moses made it so easy? In Deuteronomy 24:1-4, it had stated that if a husband had found uncleanness, he could put his wife away.

You see, Jesus is saying that Moses relented in the face of stubborn disobedience. But then He follows this with:


In Jesus' statement here, we find out that not only is a man that divorces his wife committing a sin, but that he is starting a cycle of sin which will involve several others. If this man's wife remarries, then she will be committing adultery and so will her new husband. Three or more adulterers are now in a sin-filled cycle. All because this man divorced his wife for un-Biblical reasons.

Today, we have divorces for irreconcilable differences. We have many come on here and state that they cannot stay with their current spouse...and why would God want them to stay where it appears they will never get along and no one will be happy? And the answer is simple...in God's eyes, there are no differences that are irreconcilable!!

We have to keep in mind what I posted above. The marriage is supposed to be a model of Christ's relationship with the Church. We would all be in deep poo-poo if He divorced us every time we went astray!!

Okay, now that we have discussed this, I will post next on how the marriage covenant is broken.

Since Jesus states that the only reason for a divorce is immorality, we first need to understand what immorality means Biblically. In Leviticus 18:3, we get a good idea of that meaning:


God is saying He doesnt care what they do in Egypt or Canaan...you MUST obey MY commands. If we paraphrase this, He is saying "I dont care if human law allows no-fault divorce...those are Egypt's and Canaan's statutes. They are NOT Mine.You will live by My laws, not theirs!" And this applies to everything in our lives. In short, if we keep His laws, we live. If we dont, we die.

As Leviticus 18 continues, He goes on to list the kind of behavior that will bring spiritual death and destroy the marriage covenant. These include incest, adultery, immoral behavior with children, beastiality and homosexuality. In the New Testament, the word pornia is used to describe this behavior...which means to any kind of sexually deviant behavior.

Immorality without repentence breaks the covenant and legitimizes a divorce in the eyes of God.

Paul goes further on Jesus' teachings on divorce to state:


What Paul is saying is that a believer is no longer held to the marriage, that the covenant is broken, should an unbeliever decide to leave. Of course, this is only if the believer has been acting in the Bibilically outlined roles and responsibilities that they have been given and didnt jsut "run off" the unbeliever.

When Paul stated the believer is not under bondage, he means that he is no longer bound to the covenant and is free to enter a new one...but only with another Christian (2nd Corinthians 6:14).

Next stop...who decides???

A big question arises now. Who decides when a divorce is legitimate in God's eyes?

Well, the Bible outlines how legal disputes are to be dealt with between believers (remember...if one of the spouses is an unbeliever, then the believing spouse should let the unbeliever go). What we are talking about now is a divorce between believers.


So, if my neighbor is my spouse, where do I go when I have been wronged by her? Well, the answer here is to take it to the Church court. Remember, what goes on in man's court is governed by man's laws...what goes on in a Church court is governed by God's laws. Thus, the Church has been given the power by God to render judgments on His behalf, based on Scripture.

Exodus 18 outlines how these courts will be set up. Basically a system of lower courts, like today in the U.S., are set-up. Well, the same goes with the Church court, with God being the Supreme Court.

In Matthew 18, we see how the Church court will operate:


So, if a fellow believer has wronged us...no matter what that wrong is...we start with the lowest court and work our way up. If we get all the way thru, and the process fails to bring restoration of our brother or sister in Christ, then we are no longer to view that believer as a Christian. He/she now takes the heading of sinner.

Here is a great example of how a church court should work:


You see, once the church has declared this person as an unbeliever ("let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. "), then we go back to what Scripture says about what a believer does when an unbeliever wants to leave the marriage. We also go back to when a spouse dies, that we are free of the marriage covenant.

Now some wonder where is God when the Church is making these decisions? In Matthew 18:18-20, we get the answer:


Too often, this passage is misquoted by the name it and claim it crowd! But you have to look at the context that this statement was made in (the surrounding text). This verse is talking about the legal process. All God is saying is that if the Church does as He has said, and uses His word as their guide, then we will ratify their verdict in Heaven and on Earth if asked.

So, what does this all mean? It means that the Church is given absolute authority in applying Scripture and absolute assurance that God will back the Church's decisions, as long as they are rooted in His word.

Which means...that when the Church goes thru this process, finds that the rebllious believer will not repent...and then declares that believer to be like a tax gatherer (an unbeliever), God raitifies that decision in Heaven and on Earth.

Last post coming...a summation.

Now...if my wife has committed adultery, and refuses to reconcile...what is it that Scripture is saying for me to do?

Is the fact of her adultery enough for me to divorce her? Well, no. Remember what it says above? Scripture outlines how we deal with offenses against us by another believer (again, if our spouse is an unbeliever, then we are governed by the "let the unbeliever go" principle). And it has a process. And along that path, if my adulterous wife repents, then I must take her back. If she doesnt, then we complete the path...and she is declared as a heathen. She has died spiritually and been declared so by the Church. And as is written, God also ratifies that decision.

A quick note: some wil ltake this verse to say that in this case, my wife would have lost her salvation. Not so. The key is in the wording. Scripture didnt say that she became a tax gatherer...a sinner. It says she was to be treated as such. Treated how? Treated as a sinner in order to make a legal decision conerning the offense against me. If she was saved, she still is. But for the sake of this decision by the Church, she is treated as a sinner.

Remember, when you break God's laws, you die. Immediately. Does that mean that everytime I sin, I lose my salvation? No. Remember, spiritual death means nothing more than being separated from God. Yo uare no longer in fellowship with Him.

So, how is that believer to regain fellowship? Simple. The same way as an unbeliever becomes saved. Repent and seek His face. It is that simple!

But what do we do with that broken covenant? If the Church has released the innocent one from the covenant, is that covenant still existing? Remember, a covenant is a type of contract. In a contract, there are lists of what things must be done, by all parties involved. For the contract (covenant) to continue to work, then all parties must do their parts.

If the BS is released from the covenant, how can the WS still be held to it? In order to fulfill the terms of the covenant, the WS would have to again do their part of it. But that would require the BS again doing their part, as much of the requirements have to have both spouse's participation.

It is impossible. So, what some say that a WS must do (that is still be committed to a contract that the other spouse has been released from) is an impossible task. It cant be done. And once a BS or WS remarries, then it can never be done because Scripture says that once they remarry they cannot divorce and then remarry each other. That is an abomination to the Lord.

Remember the passage about why Moses permitted divorce? It was because of the hardness of their hearts. That includes the BSs!!!

There is more here...but I will stop now to open this discussion up on this.

I will say one more thing...because of what Scripture has said...if a Christian BS here decides to divorce their Christian WS, and does so without going thru the Church...is that divorce legal in God's eyes?

According to Scripture, no it is not. Which means, when we talk about affair marriages, that BS would divorce their WS, enter into a new marriage...and be committing adultery with their new spouse.

And all the time...thinking they were justified Biblically!

Okay...the floor is now open!

Oooppsss...forgot one more thing...

How is a WS, who has gone thru this process and has been declared a sinner...and the BS has been granted their divorce...how is that WS allowed to remarry? Well, simple. They have been declared like an unbeliever by the Church and ratified so by God.

All this person needs to do is like FH has been trying to say for days. And that is that Paul teaches that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come. (2nd Corinthians 5:17) With new birth begins a new life. Thus, a person who divorces a mate prior to becoming a Christian is allowed to remarry. And a WS who has been declared an unbeliever has the same route to becoming in fellowship with Jesus again. And is a new creation.

Question:

And I ask this in all seriousness!

What is God's view on civil marriage? How does this relate to divorce?

Larry

All marriages between a man and a woman (that's the only kind there are) are recognized by God. Which means, if two unbelievers get married, and one commits adultery...then it is adultery in God's eyes.

The issue in that case is that in reality, it doesnt matter. Unless that person is saved, it really doesnt matter how many sins they do or how severe. Their destiny is the same.

If two believers get married (not in the church), it is still recognized by God. They are married, and thus subject to all of the things I listed above.

Hope that helps!

MM:

I have never gone into scripture to read about marriage, shame on me.

What you have said makes me profoundly sad. I have been married before, twice. My first wife was certified insane and I was stupid. She divorced me. My second wife and I went to counseling. Much to my surprise, the counselor (Female, of a certain age) told my wife she was not living up to the marriage contract in many ways. Shortly after that, my wife filed for divorce. I didn't fight either.

My wife was married for a couple of weeks, then divorced, followed by a marriage that lasted six years. She divorced the guy because of many forms of mental abuse of both her and the kids. She met me and we married. When she turned 30, she went nuts for many reasons. I stood by her and fought for the marriage. She did a 180 and we are as happy as clams at high tide most of the time. She now owns her own stuff and understands infatuation cycles and all of the childhood and early adult issues that made her vulnerable.

We love our family, take care of our kids and yes, go to Church as a family when her work schedule allows. That we might not be married in God's eyes makes me sad. I feel married to my wife and the look in her eyes tells me all I need to know about how she feels and chooses to believe, as do I.

I am not looking for sympathy or solutions. It is what it is. There is no reset button for most of us in life. In other words, we can't live life over again. I made bad choices and so did she. Yet the choice we have in each other seems right to us. I hope and work to keep it that way. So does she. That we are not married in God's eye is a really, really tough pill to swallow.

Larry

Then don't swallow. JMHO

-ol' 2long

Larry,

But you summed it up in the last couple of paragraph. You cannot hit the reset button. So, what are you to do?

Simple. Remember what Jesus told the woman at the well. Jesus asked "where is your husband?" She responded that she had no husband...and Jesus then told her the truth. He said that in fact, she had five husbands. Well, how is that possible? It is possible because she was never legitimately divorced from the first husband. So, in reality, she has been guilty of adultery with the succeeding husbands and has drawn them into adultery also.

Quite the predicament, huh? How do you get yourself out of that mess? Many would say that you had to divorce your current spouse and go back to your original one. well, what if they had remarried? There is other Scripture that says remarrying a spouse you had previously divorced (and had remarried and divorced) is an abomination to God.

In order to understand that, ask yourself "why" it is an abomination. What is God's intent here? Well, by understanding the surrounding text and the rest of Scripture, you could surmise that God is trying to clean up a mess here. If you divorce your wife, marry another, then divorce her and remarry your wife...you will have made a huge mess. God wants the mess to stop, so He states that to do this is an abomination.

More proof? Well, what does Jesus say to the woman at the well? He says "go and sin no more?" In other words, stop making any more messes!

Scripture says that if we repent, our sins are washed away. They no longer exist. If we ask for forgiveness, tunr from the path we are on (the mess making) and follow Him, He is faithful to forgive those sins.

Does that mean the consequences of those sins are gone? The consequences of our messes? Nope! So, maybe some of the mental and emotional anguish both of these women went thru could be directly related to active disobedience of God. I know my wife's current back issues has all the ear markings of consequences for her rebellion to God.

Now that she has reconciled, has God taken away those back problems? Nope. And He may not. We pray that He does...but in the end, it is His choice.

Too often, we walk around with an entitlement attitude. We believe we deserve to be happy. And we do not. We believe we deserve the perfect spouse. And we do not. What we deserve is eternal damnation in He!!.

But what we get is a God the continually walks in, and if we will repent and seek His face, He will restore us into fellowship with Him and will walk with us thru the problems in life that we have created.

Larry, now that you know the score of what has happened in your life, all that is to do now is to kneel before Jesus and tell Him you know, that you are sorry, and you ask His forgiveness. And then you go, and sin no more.

MM:

Ok, thank you. Just to set the record straight, I gave you the short version of life's events just to keep it simple.


I believe I can honestly tell you that I have tried to live my life with honor. I don't feel as if I am entitled to anything except what I get by doing the right thing. I have sinned in my life and I hold myself accountable and understand that God also holds me accountable. I can also tell you my wife believes as well. She has said so many times. She is not the same person she was. And she will never be that person again.

We do our best. And "Feel good" mentality is ok, so long as feeling good comes from doing good and doing the right thing.

Larry

I am taking the liberty of copying FH's last post from the old thread as it raises some issues I really would like to put to bed.


You assume wrongly because I have never claimed such as illegitimate. I have said that about affair marriages though.


It was a valid question and I asked it for precisely this reason. I would expect many people have their own agendas and reasons for holding to certain positions that support their life's choices wouldn't you. To me, your position is unsupported by scripture so I did wonder if you or someone very close to you is in an affair marriage.

I think we all potentially bring these biases into our discussions on this subject. For the record, my wife and I are in our first marriage, been married for 25 years.


I did ask you this before and you never answered or I certainly made a comment to the effect that *I* personally have not been sinned against by anyone in an affair marriage so WHY on earth do *I* have ANY need to forgive ANYONE who has NEVER done anything against me? How can you say it is OUR responsibility to forgive a fellow believer? Only GOD can do that and the person they have sinned against.


What you cling to FH is your right to counsel a rapist in front of their victims. Most reasonable people would find that offensive. If the said rapist was truely repentant and remorseful, they would rather die than willingly subject victims of that crime to more pain. Compassion and caring would compel them to seek counsel elsewhere.


I believe someone who has not sinned against me has no need of my forgiveness.


Yes indeed I would agree with this except to say that in this specific case of a marriage begun in adultery, this was in fact the SPECIFIC thing Jesus was addressing in his teaching on divorce. I intend to come back to this in a later post.


And I don't believe that an affair marriage has the SLIGHTEST thing to do with forgiveness of God. Again more later.

Again, let me be clear. This issue in my opinion has NOTHING to do with forgiveness.

Marriage observances formulated over the past 1500 years are quite alien to scriptural laws and principles and grossly misinterpreted in modern times.

These poor people didn't live long and their "covenant" was nothing more than non-written verbal agreement between two sets of parents who were very young themselves. The girls (actually children) were bartered away like chattel.

There was no marriage law, no Rabbi, no government involvement--just a supper--invitations went out and after everyone ate the groom got to force himself on a very young girl.

There was no divorce because the girl's father would want his goat back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So if two people are both christian and they get married in the forest by a Rabi and they are different sexes does that count if their parents made them get married.

It drives me crazy when people quote God.

You mayb be quoting an apostle, you may be quoting a scripture but you are not quoting God.

There is not one quote in the bible attributed to God.

So any person here pretending to know what God thinks about M.