Were you napping when we learned about ending an affair and no-contact? No-contact means...no contact! You don't wander around afterwards chirping good luck and bringing up other concerns. You're trying to justify breaching no-contact. Why....so it doesn't look like you lied?

About the counseling: I'm in it. I'm just not interested in marital counseling. CALI has it right.

We need to work on ourselves individually.

I'm amazed at you Laura. Truly. An abused woman should not be blamed for her abuse. Why should I stay in that environment?

Isn't abuse supposed to be harmful to a person? And how can one make a marriage if one is not whole?

I'm not whole, but I'm getting that way.

The truth of my EA is a mystery to all but those who need to know about it, and I'm not about to change that, now.

Feel free to ignore, but I request that you not post to me, anymore. The disrespect in your posts is unnerving for an MB vet, and one so close to someone who has been abused.

digs = Informal. living quarters; lodgings

Noted. I don't need nor want his money, but the kids don't need a father who bails on them.

If you want to ignore my questions, okay. I see what you haven't answered, and I would imagine other readers will too. It is not my intent to "amaze" you, or to be disrespectful. I DID mean to rattle your chains, and it's obvious I did. GOOD. I won't respond to you on any of your threads; feel free to start your own.

You could have asked why I broke no contact. That would have been respectful.

You're kidding, right? I don't care why you broke no-contact.

No-contact
means
No-contact.

What part of that is unclear? What part of you lied is unclear? Admitting you did might be appropriate.

How has he bailed on them?

I already admitted I did, on here, and to my SIL. And I will be discussing this with my counselor.

I'm really sorry I disappointed you, Laura, but I am only human, doing the best I can with what I have.

This seems like a case of "Oh, how the mighty have fallen" but I've never been mighty, and never claimed to be.

Oh, and just to let people know: I never lied. And I do have proof as to my actions, whereas BH doesn't have a complete record. Mine's not totally complete, but it contains enough information.

Problem is, it doesn't belong here, and I'm only going to be sharing it with people I trust. BH isn't one of them. His sister, yeah, but I don't think she wants, nor needs, to see my record.

The fact is that BH abused me. I decided I wanted to end my marriage, independent of OG, no matter what anyone believes. I have proof that the EA didn't officially begin until after I decided I wasn't staying with BH.

Admittedly, it would have been better to start fresh with someone who ISN'T married. But that, I can't change. It just is, at this point. Those details are private, and again, privvy only to those who need to know, including my SIL if she wants to know, my counselor who will need to know, and others with whom it may be important to share those details, including BH IF and ONLY IF we ever get to the point of rebuilding.

I'm still focused on divorce, with or without (and it will be without) another man.

I didn't say he has. I'm just saying that I'm asking for money FOR THEM! BH can tell you I have 3 pairs of pants that I wear. I have a number of shirts, including a $70 he said I could buy to wear to my stepsister's wedding around tax refund time. And he can also tell you that I usually feel very funny about spending a lot of money.

I'm very cautious with money. So my asking for money is out of necessity to help his sister. After I get on my feet, it's about the kids, which the COURT will make him pay, not me.

I will be working. I will not be attending school for some time. It's not all roses and foot massages here.

Edit: I wanted to add that I've been through times of $40 grocery money for food for the week (or was that 2 weeks?). I know how to live poor. I've cut all our hair for the entire family for years.

I drive a clunker and hope it holds out. I just hope that our kids are allowed to be happy and healthy.

I'm not a big spender. Never have been, though I have my moments of wanting something shiny, but I also know how to tell myself "no," in regards to money, especially when my kids' well-being is at stake.

Of course you're not. Fogs are strong. It will take awhile before the effects fade enough for you to think clearly.

There is no interesting mystery to an EA. They're just sad. And wrong. And hurt people. I do hope you will stop.


So there's a point any time in a marriage when an EA is okay? Why would you rationalize that that's more okay than before you'd decided? There are levels of okay-ness????


Huh???? Nevermind...that made no sense to me on ANY level.


The mighty? Uhm, all right...I'm going to bed before someone utters "*I* am Spartacus."

I read the living-poor comments, ZP. Two adults in your household. Let's see, one was working, one was not. When my children were young, my H made a great salary and I still had to work, and don't resent helping AND keeping the homefires burning as well. You chose to stay home, didn't you? Why are we discussing you living-poor? You were helpless?? Where's your part in this?

ZP,

Sorry, I didn't know you back when, so I used the YPIM and I didn't even acronym it correctly. Just realized that.

I don't have you on a pedastal...I believe, as Lucks said, that since you'd been here, working so hard on your marriage (no sarcasm at all in that, btw), that you'd learned that verifying is for the BS. And if you truly suspected your BH of having an affair, I would understand your desire.

I'm going to press the issue now because I what I heard you say is that if BH wants O&H, why isn't he being O&H with his email? Would sound reasonable, had you not just ended an EA. If you were living together, recovering your marriage, I would expect no less, if I were you.

My question, now, more directly is, did you want to get in BH's email to see what he had written to OG? If so, this would be contact. Even reading OG's posts here...following any of his posts about his marriage would be contact.

LA

I'm not interested in my marriage because of what BH has done. Plain and simple. You're not in my head, and you haven't been. It's no fault of your own that you don't know my motivations for ending my marriage, and it's not my job to explain them to you.

I know the reasons, and I'm perfectly fine with them as my motivations. I'm NOT fine at having lived through what I have, though.

The EA is not justifiable. I've stated as much. I'm not blaming anyone for it, but myself. I've taken responsibility for my continued contact with OG.

Affair fog has to do with having difficulty in cutting contact, not the ending of my relationship with BH.

If you can't believe me, that's not my problem.

And Laura, I see no reason for you to judge OUR choices for me to stay home based on your situation. Fact is, for many years, we couldn't afford for me to work. I know, I did work, off and on.

No problem on the name game, LA. It's just a preference.

I have been on his end of this, actually, except that he was using the situation to get my attention. I didn't want his attention with my EA.

I honestly was curious to see if he was keeping his account available to me. I have no reason to make anything available to him, so I don't know why he's going through my emails to his own sister. Do you?

And then, why is he giving out my address? I can't make heads nor tails of that one, even with the EA.

Are you saying that I can't read my legal husband's thread, regardless of who posted in it?

Are you saying I have no right to defend myself against things that can be miscontrued? If so, I don't understand that, and I don't understand how that can possibly help BH.

BH doesn't need to think I was asking for explanations if I wasn't. That only feeds his desire to do more snooping and call in the reigns on me. Is it not enough that I am demonstrating good will in his sister's home?

What should I do? Forget the abuse happened and move back in with him, in the hopes that he has changed, when for years, he hadn't? I should go back to a man who cannot even respect the privacy of emails between his sister and I, or my autonomy in having an account and the right to give out the address to others?

I'm sorry. This is all too surreal.

Long-term psychological and physical abuse vs short-term EA...

In the first, my whole family has lost, from my husband to my parents and children, and me. In the second, a marriage has been hurt, but hopefully reparable, and what started out as a good friendship that will never be regained.

Um...I think the cost of the first is MUCH greater than the cost of the second at this point...and as I'm feeling both losses, I think I ought to know.

Laura, I'm not saying I'm mighty. Did you not read that? I just know that people have reacted with such shock that I made a mistake.

I am unsure of why this bothers you so much. Maybe you could explain that to me.

When I said: Admittedly, it would have been better to start fresh with someone who ISN'T married.

I meant to say "start fresh after divorce with someone who isn't married."

Once again, I prove my humanity? Silly me.

Okay, good night, all.

I've got things I need to do in the morning...and I thank God I have them.

ZP,

Thank you for listening and repeating what I wrote. I really appreciate it because you didn't perceive what I said and make your perception fact. I'm being very sincere.

"I have been on his end of this, actually, except that he was using the situation to get my attention. I didn't want his attention with my EA."

You are saying that you experienced in your marital history being the BS to an EA by BH? (Man, even I cringed at that acronymic sentence!)

"I honestly was curious to see if he was keeping his account available to me."

Are you saying that was the only reason you attempted to see in his email...if he was keeping (because he had before?) his account available to you?

"I have no reason to make anything available to him, so I don't know why he's going through my emails to his own sister. Do you?"

I believe he was looking for confirmation of your EA. I won't guess, though. That's why I did stuff like that...went through the trash, my WH's car, all sorts of stuff to confirm contact or verify no contact. To know what I was dealing with and adjust my expectations.

"And then, why is he giving out my address? I can't make heads nor tails of that one, even with the EA."

I didn't see him do it and I believe you when you said he posted it. Seems to be easily verifiable. I do not condone in anyway his choice to do that, for any reason. If someone here asked for it in a post, he could have emailed you with their email info or request.

"Are you saying that I can't read my legal husband's thread, regardless of who posted in it?"

This is why I thanked you for asking, not stating this is what I meant. No, you have every right to read any thread...because you can read and choose. If you are choosing to go no contact, then I was asking you to include not reading where OM posts. And if you are not working on your marriage or even considering it, then I would advise you to hold yourself to the same boundary and not read anything your BH writes here, because he is trying to save his marriage.

"Are you saying I have no right to defend myself against things that can be miscontrued?"

Oh, no. I believe MB helps us in so many ways, that coming here for our own growth is a great idea. I would support you starting your own thread, to tell your side...though I would also ask that you understand you have no control over how others, including me, misconstrue anything you write. We do that at times. Or we believe differently than you and you may see it as misconstrued, also. I believe, like you do, you have the right.

"If so, I don't understand that, and I don't understand how that can possibly help BH."

I, too, see benefit in you posting, sharing your perceptions and perspectives on your marriage. Absolutely.

"BH doesn't need to think I was asking for explanations if I wasn't. That only feeds his desire to do more snooping and call in the reigns on me. Is it not enough that I am demonstrating good will in his sister's home?"

He may choose to perceive you were asking for explanations...you have now clarified you were not. He was verifying your honesty because of your fog, I beleive. I support him in continued verification as long as you remain married. I know he doesn't have the power to call in any reigns on you, but then, maybe I'm not understanding what you meant.

Are you saying your choice to stay in his sister's home is an act of good will for your marriage?

"What should I do? Forget the abuse happened and move back in with him, in the hopes that he has changed, when for years, he hadn't?"

Thank you for asking for my opinion. My DH was in your shoes, and I in BH's for most of our marriage. If my DH would post (sorry, he doesn't) he would tell you today, over two years later, that anyone abused cannot forget it. That he moved back in, worked on his own stuff, enforced his boundaries when I slipped into my old abuse, and we are now thriving. He would tell you that your marriage can recover and thrive...and that it's not totally dependent on BH's changes. It's half your and half his. We are experiencing this recovery.

"I should go back to a man who cannot even respect the privacy of emails between his sister and I, or my autonomy in having an account and the right to give out the address to others?"

This, to me, is full of fog talk. When you said you had been a BS, I assumed (incorrectly) you would understand how important knowing the truth, separate from our own truth, is...and that verifying contact or no contact was essential to Plan A. You remain autonomous...you always have been and will be, for that matter. Seeing where you already make your own choices in everything you do and did, would go a long way to your own healing, which I think is paramount, whether or not you decide to recover your marriage.

"I'm sorry. This is all too surreal."

I am not understanding this...I don't see what you are sorry about or what is too surreal.

"Long-term psychological and physical abuse vs short-term EA..."

I do not see them as equivalent nor that they can be compared except as different forms of abuse. A's are abusive, IMO. Part of our recovery was learning not to judge through comparison...it's fantasy, not reality. Are you hearing people say you're bad as your BH? Or you're bad and he's bad...or you're badder than him or vice versa? What gains us anything in comparing?

Separate choices...separate and equal people...that's what I see.

"In the first, my whole family has lost, from my husband to my parents and children, and me."

I would like to understand what you see as irrevocably lost.

"In the second, a marriage has been hurt, but hopefully reparable, and what started out as a good friendship that will never be regained."

I saw two marriages hurt...and believe they are both repairable...even to where they can be more incredible than before. When you met OG's ENs and he met yours, neither of you allowed those same ENs to be met by your spouses. I know you know this...I'm not preaching, just clarifying. So what I see is that it wasn't a good friendship. And I hear you saying you lost someone...when they weren't yours and weren't good for your marriage.

"Um...I think the cost of the first is MUCH greater than the cost of the second at this point...and as I'm feeling both losses, I think I ought to know."

Again, the comparing...I ask you honestly why you compare...how does it benefit you...what is your payoff or motive in doing so, not to bash, but to truly understand. These are two totally separate issues in my mind, except that they both were attacks on your marriage. What could possibly be of aid to anyone by measuring which was worse in what way? I don't see BH doing that...my perception. I see you doing that, and I'm concerned about you.

I am delighted you're here and I have the direct opportunity to post to you directly. I fear what you do not learn from your marriage, you will repeat...and fog doesn't help. My belief is that your EA was caused by the A formula: Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

In NO WAY is this me bashing you...I KNOW fog...I lived in it for most of my whole life...handed down from FOO and continued by my choice...until I learned it WAS my choice.

I want more than anything for you and BH to heal...even if that means separately, in the end. Right now, you're married. Right now, you're making choices which are harmful to you--to your self-respect, your deep knowledge of how marriages work, and to your heart. Choices, not who you really are.

Would you like to learn about boundaries and choices, loving by choice and living freely in truth, responsibility and love? All yours for the taking...especially in this most painful, difficult and emotional time.

You were brave and smart and true to yourself to come here years ago to get help. To me, your EA says you didn't get what you came for...and you're here again, and I support you in getting all you need, for as long as you need, from our highest honesty.

And I'm being brave by writing this to you because I perceive you have honesty in your code...I see it...and I hear fog, too. Doesn't mean you aren't honest...where we self-deceive, we believe we are telling the truth.

So you can know you are whole, complete, marvelously made...and you always were...because you were made that way. That's who you really are.

LA

Yeah, I have suggestions: Start dealing with the reality of the situation, instead of your pretend version of it.

As much as you would like to pretend this is about Marriage Building, it's not; it's about a battered woman escaping her abuser.

The process of rehabilitating yourself from your abusive patterns takes years. Expecting your wife and children to sit around and take more punishment while you sort your head out is ridiculous. Be a man and take responsibility for what you've done by letting them go until you have a years-long track record of proving you have changed how you relate the universe from the very core of your being.

I have absolute faith that you can do this.