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Joined: Sep 2001
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Plan A will not work for you if you go in to it with

ANY EXPECTATIONS

that you
will
should
could

get YOUR own EN's met....

that's is the formula for failure...

set up to fail by the BS....

I have said it a hundred times...

PLAN A must have a time frame for ending BEFORE it begins....

so that the person entering it...realizes that they will be giving and doing things that go against...

societies advice...drop em dump em slam em....

friends and family who love you and CAN NOT stand to see you hurt.....

and even your gut instincts....IT'S NOT FAIR... that I the BS do this when the WS doessn't deserve it...

again and again and again...

the deep seeded rationalization it takes for a person to engage in an affair...

is the complete compartimentalization of reality
and has been building in their thought long before the affair 'officially began"

you must
must
must...

be willing to accept that the BS has been mentally villified to
excuse
justify
and
rationalize affair actions.......

PLAN A is allll about and in my opinion....

opening up communication
in tiny tiny avenues

always giving the WS exactly what they don't EXPECT

this is NOT door matt behavior....but like PEP once BRILLIANTLY concluded...

a WELCOME HOME MATT
love that cerebral picture....

you know what exactly feeds in to the WS justification...

behaving in a way that gives them the weapon to aim at you...

PLAN A is not grandiose fix it now
PLAN A is not about addressing deep marital issues....
that is also set up to fail as the WS is in total
justification mode....

PLAN A is NOT long drawn out talks that go way in to the night.....

When you pick your end date...the FIRST step in plan A....

then you build a road map...of all the things you can do that get the WS attention...

small verbal interchanges
small gestures....

WS spouses are drawn to say that even when the affair relationship is failing.....
that there is too much damage done already to fix the marriage....

there is great fear in facing their actions.....
and forcing them to do so when they are in this mode is also setting up for failure...

push for the apologies...and woe to you who get it without true meaning because you will not have true remorse...

but remorse that will again become the weapon....

PLAN A is full of hope and NOT about fixing things in the marriage in that the WS needs to address...

THAT is what recovery is for...

PLAN A is never ever about getting a committment from the WS to do something....

again hand the weapon

you will hear...

you made me
you forced me
you controlled me....

PLAN A is about setting your boundaries....that are full of actions for the BS and NONE for the WS

in a good plan A you can say...

I didn't make you choose anything...
I just refuse to be part of a triangle...period...
you my dear WS will make your own choice as well....
and then add....
with a warm smile...
remember my love....
doing nothing is a choice as well......

People that do plan A well find great freedom and creativity in the doing and giving and meeting of ENs...

people that expect their needs to be met...
flounder and get crushed....

please please please use the board here to ground yourself in plan A....
digging deep for its short term actions........of great sacrifice.......knowing the payoff is down the line.....

NOT while in plan A....
never in plan A....

I could go on and on and on about this......

If you don't understand this...use this board....

ARK

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ark^^

Bless you!!

Another FANATASTIC explaination of Plan A and what is required, thank you!

I've refered back to many of your posts to help keep me on the path during my Plan A, and for those posts let me say I will be eternally grateful.


BS (me)
ExWS -Drac
DD 9
DSS 15
D Day 11/06
Divorced 10/01/07

"You Can't Fix Stupid" - My Mom
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Excellent post, Ark.

Can you help me out? Dr. Harley has said (on the radio show, I believe) Plan A works only about 15% of the time. Clearly, Plan B is the norm rather than the exception. To me, we need even more information on how a fantastic Plan A sets up a great Plan B, and what we need to do and expect in Plan B. Would you use your magic words to educate us on Plan B, as well as Plan A? I, for one, would be eternally grateful.

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My dear Ark,

Once again you have posted great wisdom. I love this thread!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would like to address Longhorn's comment about:

Quote
Dr. Harley has said (on the radio show, I believe) Plan A works only about 15% of the time. Clearly, Plan B is the norm rather than the exception. To me, we need even more information on how a fantastic Plan A sets up a great Plan B, and what we need to do and expect in Plan B. Would you use your magic words to educate us on Plan B, as well as Plan A? I, for one, would be eternally grateful.

While plan A works an average of 15% (towards ending the A), it is still a useful tool to implement because as Ark so wise pointed out, plan A is more for the self-improvement of the BS NOT about ending the A.

Doing a good plan A is key to executing a good plan B. If both plans are need and implemented properly, the BS can move forward. Then the Xws can shed their WS skin and join the BS thereby entering true recovery OR the BS can be emotionally strong enough to end the M as needed.

Either way, the BS is empowered to move forward.

The kicker is if recovery is chosen, it is up to the Xws to perform most of the recovery steps. Winning back the trust of the BS and family is a big task that takes a long time. No shoving emotions under the rug.

Recovery is not for the fainthearted. If the Xws is not willing to give 110% to the M for the BS and family, then the BS may find the Xws not as attractive and may seek to end the M on the BS' terms.

Whatever the plan selected, it s/b on the BS' terms. NEVER, NEVER put this on the WS terms. There must be NO WS in any plans to move forward.

JMHO,
L.

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Quote
Whatever the plan selected, it s/b on the BS' terms. NEVER, NEVER put this on the WS terms. There must be NO WS in any plans to move forward.

I agree 100% and have witnessed this in my own situation where my WW has made half-hearted attempts at reconciliation, which in the end quickly break down.

Orchid as you stated many times, plan B sychronizes the BS's heart & mind, forcing the WS to do most of the work towards reconciliation. In most cases, crumbs just don't do it for the BS anymore.

Ark, excellent post on Plan A. I would like to see some more information on exiting Plan B as there seems to be a lot of grey area here. Assuming the WS agrees to the BS's conditions...then what?

Plan A and B have simple rules to follow...exiting Plan B can be confusing.


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
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Plan A only works 15% of the time because the hold of an affair is that strong, it's not executed properly OR in some cases the offending cheater is not having an affair because needs weren't/aren't being met instead there is something inside them that is the problem and no plan A is going to touch that. Heck, I know people that plan A'd there entire marriage only to have a spouse CHOOSE to cheat. Plan Aing harder will have no effect in these cases, imo.

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GREAT post Ark!

I think the first post to those seeking help should be a list of all that Plan A is NOT.

It is NOT negotiation toward ending the A.
It is NOT keeping the WS awake all night discussing the A.
It is NOT pressing the WS for a commitment to the marriage or rebuilding it. (If they were COMMITTED to the M there would be no A)
It is NOT allowing the pain of the A to rule every moment of your life.
It is NOT begging, pleading or attempting to coerce the WS into ending the A.

But what Plan A is designed to do is to show the WS what a good marriage could be like if they were to return to it and devote some time to recovery. It is supposed to try to make the WS fall in love with the BS all over again. That is why it is stressed that the BS in Plan A make changes to themselves that will become evident to the WS as time goes on. It means that the BS should do everything they can to meet the Emotional Needs of the WS at every turn, and here is the bottom line, WITHOUT having any of their needs met by the WS.

Plan A has been described by Dr Harley (on his radio program...lots of good stuff there) as being a competition between the BS and the OP for the love of the WS. He says men are better at this than women in the long term and this is why he recommends a maximum of six months for Plan A by men and about three months is the longest a woman can do a convincing Plan A. It isn't the difference in emotions between men and women, but the mere fact that men generally more competitive to begin with and so are more likely to be able to continue longer.

If Plan A goes on for years...it is NOT Plan A.

Mark

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During Plan A, should you even bother with joint MC - WW suggested it, and so far it has been "ok" - nothing bad, nothing groundbreaking.

Just curious.

Nowwhat74


me BH - 32 WW - 33 1 S; 2 WW - EA 04/06 - 04/07 D Day 1 - March 22, 2007 D Day 2 - April 15, 2007 MC/IC - 03/07 - Current NC since April 30 http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3220062&an=0&page=1#Post3220062
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Quote
...in some cases the offending cheater is not having an affair because needs weren't/aren't being met instead there is something inside them that is the problem...

Good point, H&P. I believe that in more cases than we realize, it's a problem with basic integrity that is the difficulty. We all know every affair involves at least a momentary lapse in integrity but for some, it's a way of life. When I say that, I'm thinking of a poster whose WW brazenly carried on an affair in front of her husband, frequently traveling from somewhere on the west coast back to Virginia for trysts with her partner in adultery. I'm sorry, I can't recall the poster's name. Anyway, that's an example of someone completely without integrity.

That having been said, the process of conducting a stellar Plan A, and then a usually necessary and solid Plan B, still accomplishes the goals, do they not? I think you're correct in saying a Plan A will not bring the WS home, but it actually does what it's designed to do...because Plan A is all about the betrayed, not the betrayer. As Orchid pointed out above, these plans are done on the BS's terms, not the WS's.

*****

Thanks, Orchid. I keep looking for something new and enlightening about Plan B and beyond...but I don’t even know what it is I’m looking for. I understand the techniques Dr. Harley talks about in SAA; I’ve studied them, looking for something I don’t see in that text. Maybe it’s just that we work so very hard out here assisting folks with good Plan A, but there’s not that much done on Plan B, or is that my imagination? I may be over complicating the process in my mind, but I’ll keep looking.


*****

Quote
If Plan A goes on for years...it is NOT Plan A.

That’s true, Mark, and we’ve all seen such things happen when a Plan A partially brings the WS "back home." Sometimes, NC is even established with the OP, but things are stalled at that point. What is one to do in those circumstances?

Darn, Ark always starts such interesting threads. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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I agree Longhorn.....PLan is for the BS and either way and when executed properly w/out expectation other than that of becoming a better person and growing though the ordeal is good for the BS and maybe the WS time will tell.

I do think a lot of people's plan A's exist without boundaries....i.e.. WS talking to OP in the home with kids present, exposing children to OP, using family assets to assist affair, etc. I am more than willing to do plan A and did but not without boundaries whether the WS decides to attempt reconciling or not. This is where a lot of people miss plan A imo

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In Plan A, I understand you are supposed to invite the WS to the house, and to other outings. What if they say yes, and continually break the promises, or they just flat out say no?

Do you just continue on even though they aren't there? And when they say no you just let it be?


WS-36
BS (me)-28
4 Kids
A started Jan 07
________________________________

Then the time came
When the risk it took
to remain tight in a bud
Was more painful than
the risk it took to blossom.

-Anais Nin
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Quote
In Plan A, I understand you are supposed to invite the WS to the house, and to other outings. What if they say yes, and continually break the promises, or they just flat out say no?

Do you just continue on even though they aren't there? And when they say no you just let it be?

While in Plan A you should always invite WS to family outings and if they say no, continue anyways. This should apply throughout Plan A.

In Plan B there are no more invitations, no more offers...nothing. The only thing you should respond to in Plan B is your WS meeting your conditions.


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
My Story
My struggle with an EA
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And this is where the no expectations comes into play? I can do that....


WS-36
BS (me)-28
4 Kids
A started Jan 07
________________________________

Then the time came
When the risk it took
to remain tight in a bud
Was more painful than
the risk it took to blossom.

-Anais Nin
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I so love Ark's Plan A musings ....

I wanted to add

that Plan A also includes some self-protection

as you Plan A also do the following:

>find out where the money is going
>look for any hidden bank accounts
>hire a PI if necessary to ensure that you will not meet financial ruin
>cancel risky credit cards
>may want to see an attorney to get your legal ducks lined up

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In Plan A, I continued to live my life, along with DS, and invited WH to do the same. When he didn't want to go along, I continued on without him. I met EN's (but he didn't live with me). I improved MYSELF, and began to work on my issues, and there were plenty.

I didn't allow much from the WS, in terms of cruelty. I think I sort of did what Orchid describes with recognizing the WH vs H. I began to set boundaries and understand them (I learned more about this in Plan B, however), and would not allow the WH to cross that fence.


Longhorn, it's interesting that you pointed out that not much is mentioned about EXITING Plan B, or even what the BS should do while in Plan B. That subject came up among us Bee's not long ago. No one really answered that, but we figured a lot out.

For me, leaving Plan B meant that certain conditions needed to be met. Boundaries respected. Also, my Husband may have become wayward because of what he HADN'T dealt with in his own life, not just wanting to get some tail. I suspect that he felt like he should 'get busy livin', or get busy dyin'". I can't say that I did all I could to meet his needs prior to WH's A's, but life was really not all that bad. Plan A helped me to learn what I had done wrong and to learn to correct that FOR LIFE.


Me-BS-38
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Divorced April 2009
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To jump off of something Mark1952 said:

Plan A shows the WS what a great marriage could be like

Plan B shows the WS what divorce will be like

Mulan


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Some things Plan B are not:

Plan B is not when the WS moves out on or shortly after Dday. (Usually to go live with OP or the fog-speak "find myself.")
It is not the BS leaving the house and trying to save the marriage via long distance.
It is not filing for divorce and using it as a threat against the WS in an effort to make them “come to their senses.”
It is NOT a way to impose retribution on a FWS that has ended the affair and asked to work on the marriage.

It IS designed to protect the BS from the stress and day to day grind of dealing with an ongoing affair. It is to stop the pain of having a court-side seat at an ongoing affair. It is supposed to remove the BS from the “problem” of the WS until certain conditions can be met, one of which should be the end of the affair and a commitment to rebuilding the marriage. It is so that any love that the BS still has can be salvaged until such time as the affair ends of its own devices.

Whether at three months or three weeks into the process of Plan A it becomes apparent that you are not going to be able to cope with all of this, Plan B should be considered. Make no mistake; this will not be any easier at first than Plan A. It should be considered carefully because what you decide at the start as the conditions to be met to end Plan B is what you are going to have to live with. You can’t change the rules after the game has begun. You cannot “up the ante” as your whims change.

One thing that I think many BSs forget is that not only will the WS "miss" the BS, but the other way around is also true. The WS still has OP meeting some of their ENs while the BS is now all alone. It becomes necessary to have a strong support network.

Statistically, the A will end within 2 years. Likely it will just burn out and reality will infringe on the fantasy until it is no longer magic. If the BS has made it clear that they will give the WS a safe place to land when the affair has ended and if the WS knows what other conditions must be met, then Plan B can end and an attempt to save the marriage can begin again.

I actually had a bunch of stuff on these issues on Plan A and Plan B in a MS-Word file in my computer and have been considering starting just such a thread.

Of course Ark beat me to it...

Mark

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Thanks, silentlucidity. I went to the killer bee thread but couldn't find what you're talking about. Can you give me a pointer, like what day it might have been discussed or something like that? I would muchly appreciate it.

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Is it normal for the WS to start to pull away once you get a really good Plan A started?

I am not chasing him...and he is pulling back. I am patiently waiting for him to come back around. I still send texts inviting him over, and I still call him. Should I worry?


WS-36
BS (me)-28
4 Kids
A started Jan 07
________________________________

Then the time came
When the risk it took
to remain tight in a bud
Was more painful than
the risk it took to blossom.

-Anais Nin
Joined: Sep 2001
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perhaps they are pulling away ...because instead of getting all kinds of good things from you to rationalize and justify the affair...

they are getting an even-keeled rational person....when they were expecting godzilla.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

kind of makes it difficult...to blame the BS...

also it can be the beginning of having to face the reality of ones owns actions...
something very difficult for the WS to begin to do...

also remember birds of a feather flock together...it is always the easiest path to roost with those that will not judge your actions.....for they enact the same....

ARK

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