Long time lurker here.

I discovered in the spring that my WW was having a EA and PA . I used every trick in the book to get email passwords and cell phone bills to collect evidence. As others have advised here, I never let her know all the sources of my evidence so I could continue to watch what happens. Just the fact that I seemed to know enough resulted in her admitting the affair.

Currently I am two months into Plan A and we are going to MC. WW claims the affair is over but refuses to talk about it in MC. She also won't write a NC letter because she claims there is already NC. Requests sharing cell phone records are refused. I haven't pushed the issue thinking that its going to take some time to come out of the fog. So I plod along doing my best Plan A. The waiting game.

The problem is I can see from the cell phone records that she continues to communicate with him, but only every few days, not like the six times a day in the thick of it. She has no idea I have access to the cell phone records. I have no idea if the PA continues.

So do I tell her all I know, which leaves me with no way to monitor the situation, or do I continue my Plan A and grit my teeth and hopefully watch this thing wind down?

Present NONE of your sources of evidence.

You know she is lying...you do NOT need her to agree with you for it to be true.

There is no point pushing for NC letter [or MC] while affair is active or having any expectations that she will do anything besides protect her affair until she actually takes realistic steps to deliberately end it.

First do plan A...then do plan B.

One step at a time.

100% agree as this occured in my situation also.

Continue to snoop without revealing ANY of your information.

Remember even intermitent contact is still contact and will not allow her to go through withdrawal. She needs to end ALL contact if there is any hope of recovering your M. IT won't happen over night and as noodle suggests you may need to keep Plan B in you back pocket.

I do not know if you need to present all the sources of your evidence, but I do know this: as long as there is ANY contact the A is ongoing. Personally, I think I would suggest that you bring it up in MC...that you know for a fact she is still in contact with her lover and that from what you can gather it has just gone deeper "underground." When she gets this look on her face <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> and says, "How do you know that?" you just say, "I have my sources" and don't divulge. For all she knows, you could have a voice recorder in her car or hidden so that you can hear her cell phone conversations...or maybe you had a friend follow her!

The point is this. In MC, she will not be able to pull the typical WS fog-speak (if the MC is halfway decent) like she would try to do if you were alone. She won't be able to try to blame you ("How can I ever TRUST you again? You broke my privacy!"). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Finally, how long have you been in a good Plan A? You say, two months, right? Let me give you a little pointer. The A is actually over FOR REAL when your WW volunteers to do a NC letter with you and send it with you...when she volunteers to give you her email and cell phone passwords...and when she volunteers to let you and MC to hold her accountable. Until then, it is still ongoing and it has just been driven further underground. Okay??

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Welcome to MB. Sorry to see you here because it means you're having to deal with an obscene time in your life. On the other hand, you've found your way to the best place to be when tragedy strikes.

Besides confronting her, what have you done to end the affair? (If she's still in contact, the affair isn't over.)

BTW, you shouldn't ever let a WS know about your sources. If you do, you merely drive the affair underground. The WS learns how to hide everything better. What are you doing to snoop to see if the affair continues to be PA?

Tell us more about what you're doing, please. We'd like to know how long you've been married, whether you have children, where the affair started, who the OM is, where he lives, his marital status, etc., etc. What you are doing as part of your Plan A, how long you intend to stay in Plan A, what your living arrangements with WS are (separate or cohabitating)...

In short, provide much more information so folks trying to advise you don't stumble because they don't know where things are in your situation. When in doubt, provide more rather than less.

She's putting on an act.

If the calls continue...the affair continues, physical or not.

Counseling isn't progress and is a waste of time and money if the affair continues. It's only worthiness is that you get to Plan A on the drive to and fro.

It's likely, now that she is busted, she's telling OM she is giving the marriage a chance...but not really giving it a chance. It's simply divorce counseling at this point.

I'd likely bust her on it and switch to more furtile methods of snooping, like digital voice activated recorders in her car and in the house for the time being. Once she actually GETS to NC and repentent...she'll allow you access to her cell phone records anyway. The presumption is...no transparency...the affair continues. What in the world would convince you to trust her otherwise...(answer ---> NOTHING).

She'll likely attempt to manipulate your snooping into an argument about your controlling behavior and how she needs to escape you. There is nothing controlling at all about checking up on your adulerous wife. She wouldn't have a single issue with it if she were truly repentent OR the roles of BS/WS were reversed.

I'm sorry you are in this mess.

Big question....Have you exposed??? Does OM's wife or parents know about the affair??? Attacking OM is often the most fruitfull way to end these affairs. If you haven't exposed...do it NOW in one big swoop and then confront her on the continued contact/continued affair.

Again...AFFAIR is ended...then marital recovery progresses. The crumbs you feel you are getting now are worthless. She is still addicted and playing you.

Mr. Wondering

What have you done as far as exposure is concerned? Have you exposed to her family and friends? What about OM's family? This can be a big deterrent to let him know that you know and put pressure on him to stop ALL contact with your W. Telling his parents will often discourage him from pursuing your W because they might never approve of their relationship. If nothing else, it is a headache that the OM doesn't want to have to deal with. Apply pressure to his side as well.

How do they know each other? Is there a workplace or something that you can expose to? I would put every possible obstacle to prevent contact. If she continues to call him on her cell phone, shut it off. Block his email. Check her phone for his number hidden under a different name and delete it. Get rid of all contact info and/or emails they shared. Put a keylogger on her computer. She is an ADDICT, and she must be prevented all access to her "drug."

exposure to the other spouse (if there is one) is vital

Background: Married 18 years, two teens, and we are both in our 40s.

I exposed right away to select people that I thought would intervene, both friends and family. Her line to everyone is that there is no affair and that I am just insanely jealous and insecure. My true friends know better.

I have brought up the affair in MC but she seemed to even have the MC snowed until I showed the evidence. The first reaction from the MC was to show WW all evidence. My gut said no and to continue Plan A, at least for another month or so. It is incredibly difficult.

The real problem I have is when she acts really sweet and wants to cuddle, have sex etc. My choice in these situations is to spurn her advances or go along knowing full well that she is just cake eating.

I think the affair has only been around 6 months, at least thats what my evidence shows. He is quite a bit younger in his early 30s, lives with his parents, and seems to be a complete loser. I also exposed to his parents but they are losers themselves and did nothing.

So Plan A and no showing my cards on evidence seems to be the right plan for now. But I really need to set a timetable or I will go completly insane. I am continuing IC but have told her that MC is just not productive at this point.

Yep I'd keep the cards close to the vest. Once they know how you're finding stuff out, they cover their tracks better.

My XH used to "let" himself be caught in lies about all kinds of things- some of them somewhat benign except for the fact that he'd lie. IMO a lie is worse than any unpleasant truth.

I got good at snooping and I never divulged all my tricks.

Stinks to be in your situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Cake-eating is the worst.

Jenn

Have you done a "stellar" Plan A for the last two months? If so, then I'd consider complete disclosure at this point, followed by a dark Plan B. Your WS needs to be busted out of that fantasy, and driving her into the arms of that loser OM and his loser family and giving ZERO support for her WS-lifestyle might be just the way to do it.

BTW, how did she meet the OM? At her job? Does she work? If so, consider exposure there as well. Also, do your kids know what's going on?

Finally, cuddling is all right, but SF with an actve WS these days can be downright dangerous. Has she been tested for STDs? When she offers SF, consider responding along the lines of "I would really like to, but prefer not to take the risk of exposing myself and opening up the possibility of my kids ending up without BOTH parents in their lives".

BTW - submitting herself to an STD test was one of the "wake up calls" my FWW went through. While it's basically another medical test, the experience of having to tell her doctor, someone she knew and who always thought well of her, that she actually needed to be tested was humiliating enough to drive away quite a bit of the fogginess.

Does her family know that she is having a PA? Show the evidence to them. Also, what about OM? You need to make pursuing your W ****** for him. Expose on his side and he might back off. Personally, I would tell him that I knew and that he had better not talk to my wife again. Sometimes that is enough to scare them away to look for someone more available.

Also, how old are your teenagers? HS age children usually can handle being exposed to. They are usually a very strong ally in getting the WS to end the affair.

I have exposed to WW family, OMs family, and friends. They met at a club so work exposure won't get me far. Like I said early she is making me out as some sort of crazy person and denying the affair to family etc.

I could show them the evidence but then my cover is blown.

As far as contacting the OM, I haven't bothered. Its not like he would do anything for me and as far as being scared off I doubt it. He has nothing to lose.

I have been keeping busy with some new friends and activities that I started and that has her attention big time. She doesn't seem to like this new independence but as far as ending the affair I think I have a ways to go. Maybe in a month its time to think about full exposure with my evidence or Plan B.

You're still keeping your cards awfully close to the vest even with us and it makes it difficult to advise you. You're completely anonymous out here. Use it.

Okay,the reason you’ve been advised not to reveal to your WW how you know she’s indulging herself with an affair is that it’ll be necessary to snoop for some time to make sure she’s not in contact once she says she is in NC. That having been said, perhaps you could use one of your sources, the least productive (for instance), to show your exposure targets?

Have you taken the opportunity to install a keylogger on the computer? If so, you might be able to use information from Instant Messages or emails (for example) without losing access. She’ll change her password, but the keylogger will show what it has been changed to. Actually, the same thing applies to any Internet application.

Another idea might be to try and anticipate her reaction if you reveal a particular avenue of surveillance. If you’re basing your information solely on access to cell phone records, I’d hesitate to show that to anyone at this point. It would only drive her into using some other means of contact, such as one of those untraceable cell phones sold in convenience stores. But if she’s communicating through an alternate media, exposure of which would tend to move her into more cell phone use (to which you already have access), that might be something to consider.

Alternately, can you hire a PI to obtain information from another angle? A picture of them arm in arm, for instance, does wonders to corroborate your claims.

If you can't do anything about better exposure, I’d let the matter drop and work on your plan A for as long as you determine is proper. You can’t afford to get stuck on this one issue. When you go into Plan B and you’ll no longer be surveilling her, you can go back and fill everyone in on what you have.

If you’re contemplating Plan B in a month or so, have you secured your finances and thought about how you’d conduct that program?

The affair seems to be only being kept alive via cell phone text messages and an occasional phone call. With my keylogger I only have a few email confessions to a GF. The moron OM doesn't seem to own a computer. The frequency of calls has really dropped in the past couple of weeks. She talked to him in April maybe once every 3 days. The text messages are more bothersome as they seem to be every other day. This is a lot different from a month ago where there was communication 4 to 8 times a day. So I see progress and I am reluctant to divulge my only source of information which is the cell phone records. Its just to easy to buy one of those pay as you go cell phones which is probably what she would do.

I see a lawyer next week so I can get some legal advice if Plan B is on the horizon. Yeah I am playing my cards close. Right now I trust no one but myself. Even discussing evidence and keyloggers on here makes me nervous because it may cause WS's to start wiseing up.

I would confront OM and ask him if he knows your wife is married. Ask him what his intentions are with your wife. Take along bubba and have him sharpening his knife.

OM will go away if you make the affair payoff too costly to him personally.

That bit about bubba? I didn't say that. Really.

Believe me I have thought about Bubba and I paying a visit many times. There is too much opportunity to have a confrontation with the OM just generate sympathy from my WS so I don't think it's worth it. Beside it would be much more fun to surprise him if and when this whole thing is over so maybe he would think twice about home wrecking.

By the way he knows she is married as my WS was surprised in her email to a GF that he wasn't scared off by an older women with two teens.

I wonder what the pattern of the death of an affair is? For some it seems to be instant realization and NC after discovery. For others it doesn't end until Plan B. I think the slow, intermittent contact really can drive you crazy because you never know where this is going to go.

This is how thick the fog is. Your WW can't think rationally. Why is he not scared off by an older woman with two teens? Because he will never have to see them or take care of them because her H will do that while he just sleeps with her. Unhappy married women are a LOT easier to bed than single women, and they are easier to break it off with as well because they have the easy out of, "I'm breaking up with you because you are still married." If your W let on to OM that she was thinking about leaving you for him, OM would run like the wind. Afterall, he doesn't want to deal with an older woman with two teens. Your wife is getting played.

That makes me think. If you have done a good plan A for a few months, I think plan B will be very effective at ending the affair. OM does not want to have to take care of your W, he is just using her for sex. If you kicked her out of the house (which you can do, but she can get a court order to get back in, but if you don't get divorced this move won't hurt you), she will probably want to live with OM and OM will want NO part of that. He'll probably run away quickly.

I don't think your wife has any intention of running off with OM (if given a chance, the addiction could have gotten to that point).

She WANTS to cake it. She has cooled it to the absolute minimum that she feels is OK to allow her to maintian her marriage AND her "friendship". The same entitlement that got her in the affair in the first place she is using to maintain her "friend". Like I said before...she may not be sleeping with him anymore...but the affair continues.

This OFTEN happens. Even after NC, the withdrawal period and even a time after that the AFFAIR continues...only in their wayward fantasy mind. Affairs only end when your spouse becomes repentent, comes out of the fog and loses their wayward thinking. That takes time.

Until then...Suzet bumped an old thread I thought you might need to read about operating from strength. At some point, not confronting so you can maintain all avenues of snooping is pointless (though it would be nice to maintain them...it doesn't justify completely non-confrontation on adulterous activities). In true recovery, the repentent attitude is obvious. She will be then BE open about her activities, passwords, etc and the snooping you do today won't be mandatory. Then finally...at some point..snooping about OM becomes irrelevant...it becomes HER CHOICE to cross your boundary which will necessarily culminate in the destruction of your marriage. You won't have to or want to live the rest of your life snooping on your wife.

The wall of denial is, no doubt, a tough wall to surmount, but remember SHE KNOWS what she is doing. She can deny it all she wants but YOU KNOW and SHE KNOWS...so selling your story should be pretty simple.

Good luck...here is the link ---> [color:"blue"] Suzet Strength [/color]

Mr. Wondering