I am really hoping K will respond here, but anyone who has had experience with continued lies and allegations in counseling - please respond.<P>I have been in counseling before with current husband, and X husband. <P>Has anyone had any experience with counselors, where your spouse will absolutely flat out lie, and try and change the subject with further allegations?<P>The counselor's I've been to seem to not be trained in "catching a liar at their game". How do you find one that is good? <P>And K, how do you know if one of the spouses are lying when you counsel them?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Mush 4 Brains (edited October 08, 1999).]

My H lied to both our counselors. The first not-so-good counselor couldn't figure out what was wrong with our marriage, other than we were separated. He seemed to want to generate arguements with little issues. We kept saying "We don't have a problem with THAT." <P>It is now obvious my H was lying to "my" counselor this summer when he said everything with the OW was over. He was calling her, probably seeing her as well. That counselor told me in an individual session that there was something my H wasn't telling. He also told me my H would probably be unfaithful again. I think that was a pretty good catch in the face of my H's lying.

How do you know if the counselor knows their stuff, and is intuitive enough to pick up on the lieing?<P>

I went to the link that covenant posted on Sweet Pea's thread. I thought this was interesting, so I copied and will now paste. Does anyone know how to determine if you have a sharp intuitive counselor or not?<P>Thanks in advance.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>While some cases are "classic" and clear-cut, sometimes it is very difficult to make the distinction between who is the angry controller and who is the codependent victim. Appearances may be deceiving... <BR>Guidelines:<P>The abuser may be angry, loud & ugly. <BR>The victim may be angry, loud & ugly. <BR>The abuser may never raise their voice. <BR>The victim may never raise their voice. <BR>The abuser typically appears "rational," but not always. <BR>The victim typically appears "irrational" or emotional. <BR>The abuser thinks they are a victim & the victim agrees - or not. <BR>The victim thinks they are a victim. <BR>Both think they are the victim. <BR>The abuser complains about how much they do & their partner doesn't. <BR>The victim is often depressed, anxious, emotional, irrational, or otherwise falling-apart. <BR>The abuser is often depressed, anxious, emotional, irrational, or otherwise falling-apart. <BR>None, one, or both may abuse alcohol or other substances. <BR>The abuser often presents well and has people's sympathy. <BR>The victim usually does not present well and has people's sympathy. <BR>Abusers appear controlling. <BR>Victims appear controlling. <BR>The abuser gets angrier if someone gets angry with him or her. <BR>The codependent "can't stand it" if someone is angry with them. <BR>The abuser's mood will "flip" for no apparent reason, usually when he or she starts thinking about how their partner doesn't "care." <BR>The victim's mood may "flip" for no apparent reason, when the last straw breaks the camels back. <BR>The victim is outraged by the abuser's lies and will accuse the abuser of lying. <BR>The abuser will twist words, lie, and will accuse victim of lying. <BR> <P>Confused? Good. This list is intended to dispel myths and to point out how difficult it is to figure out who is who, especially from outside tightly shut doors. Both are controlling and lack self-control.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>

I felt so sorry for my counselor. My H lied to her and me about the affair being over. She had told us that until the afair was over she would only see us separatly. Couldn't figure out what when he said it was over he didn't want to come back to joint counseling. He just said he wasn't ready and wanted to work on something in counseling. I believed him. I guess she kept at him till he told her the truth, but he stilled lied to me. Here she had to her me tell that i thought things were getting better and she couln't say anything. I must admitt she tried to drop hint, but i didn't listen to them. I know I felt worse and thouhgt more after each session. She finally convinced him to tell me the truth. The rest?....Well he has been living with OW for 2 months. But counselors can only do so much. They may know you are lying but they can't come out and say so. You would walk out and never come back and what would that accomplish? They have to listen and slowly ask questions and prod you along till you are ready to tell the truth. And as much as we wish they are not miracle workers just human beings. But if you feel like this one isn't helping look for another one, if you can if not talk to he counselor about the problem. Hopes this helps.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

We went to this counselor before (have not started together again, yet) - and after 4 visits and no honesty, I felt it wasn't getting anywhere. Yes, she taught us a few things, but she was still pretty clueless. <P>I am thinking maybe it is better to stay with this one because she already has familiarity, but wonder how long before her lightbulb goes on. <P>Psychologist, Marriage and Family Counselor, who is the only specialist in substance abuse counseling. <P>No substance abuse problems in this marriage. Leave out the "substance" and we got the real problem.<P>(H at work so I will need to edit this post out later.)

M4B - Wow. Your post blew my mind (as we used to say). Yes! Spouses DO lie in couples counseling (thought your list was GREAT). Am responding to this in part to bring it back to the top. This has been TOTALLY my experience. My W lies a lot in our sessions (have to confess, I do too, but less), esp. about her affair. I confronted her with it in counseling at our last session and she denied it. I told the story of seeing her in her OM's car with him, and then seeing her get out and into her own car. And our counselor seemed to imply that he thought I was MAKING THIS UP just because I felt she was being sexually withholding and emotionally distancing. Unbelievable! I was the most upset I'd ever been coming out of that session. I couldn't believer the guy, with all the experience he presumably has, couldn't see the truth. (He told me to hire a detective! I don't need no freaking detective! I KNOW WHAT I SAW!!!!!!)<P>--Wex

Mrs. Mush, yes, spouses do lie, and sometimes they lie even when they don't have to! My H gets caught up in stupid lies even now but is getting better. I had to out and out say in counselling that he could continue lying and we would never get anywheres or to confess up and make it so we are working on something, and it was now time to work. Praying for us all! <BR><P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

After some sort of comment during our session I got a little annoyed and announced to our counselor " Look, I know our marriage may be over, but you've got to understand something, my W lies, she lies about everything even when there is no reason to lie!" He looked at me and then at her with his eyebrow raised as if to say 'Is this true?'...She didn't say anything, just sat there.<P>Admission of guilt?

Lies are basic equipment in addictions. Addicted people will lie to anyone anytime they feel either subconsciously or consciously uncomfortable, this includes therapists.<P>My H lied to our therapists until our lives came crashing down around his head. That is the only thing which has woken him from his addiction.<P>If you want a good therapist who can read an addict (lies and all), see Doug Weiss at <A HREF="http://www.sexaddict.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.sexaddict.com</A> <P>Hugz and prayers,<BR>Thoughtful (Deb)

M4B,<BR>My H lied to our counselor too. Several years ago, when I made our first counseling appt, I knew we had problems in our marriage but I did not know about the OW. There had been a couple clues and I had believed his & her lies at the time but I did bring up the farfetched possibility of an affair. <P>He emphatically denied it. Blamed all of our problems on me & our kids. And the only reason he agreed to go to the counselor was to prove just "how messed up I was." When I stated my past concerns about this woman, he told the counselor, "My W has seen her. She KNOWS I'd never be that desperate." Well, guess what. He was.<P>I still go to this same counselor today. She has helped me considerably. My H hasn't ever gone back. I think he's too embarrassed after after lying to her too. He says he knows what he has to do and knows what was wrong. He doesn't need her to tell him how screwed up he was. He knows. Going to counseling individually has helped her to really know me,,to understand exactly where I'm coming from. If necessary, go by yourself, til the counselor fully comprehends your viewpoint, then either he can go by himself or joint sessions. <P>I'd like for my H to go back. I have tried to explain to him that he don't need to rehash the affair. We need to only work on US and our recovery. He says he thinks we are now doing great, and we are, but I do wish he'd go. <P>M4B, call several counselors. Interview them on the phone before you make an appointment and commit to one. Explain on the phone your concerns and a brief redown on what you see as the major problems. Ask for their experience in dealing with this particular situation and ask what methods they use. MB? Remember, you are hiring this person to help you with a major reconstruction project, your marriage. You wouldn't hire a contractor to remodel your home without a preliminary interview and references. Don't settle for less on this project!! Interview several til you find one you & your H are comfortable with. Good luck!!! <P>