This whole discussion has just been so enlightening for me. I mean, when they invented those sins a few thousand years ago, they could not have foreseen the needs of modern life – the stress, technology, busy schedule. The same argument has been made against the US Constitution but the USA has been smart enough to put in a system to allow for this. So maybe what we need is a new system of Biblical Amendments. Adultery by consent should no longer be considered a sin. But then, if we could make lying no longer a sin, then adultery without consent could be grandfathered in as non-sin if it had already been deemed non-sin with consent. Now we need some rules. All Biblical Amendments would need to be ratified by a full two-thirds of recognized denominations. Scientologists would only get “observer” status without voting rights. This is a great idea. Maybe this way we could finally get sins to fit our modern lifestyle. Apparently God just had no sense of vision. What was he thinking? Well now we can fix that!

Yet more ideas:

1) RCC offers SMS confessions
2) Protestants offer sermons via video on 3.5G network
3) muslims offer Fatwas via email

We already have beheadings on live web cam.

The Churches need to keep up with the times people!

Aphrodite,

Talk to the hand.

Did I hear a foghorn in our midst? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the talk of religion, God and trust obscures the real point.

Oxytocin and vassopressin are released into the bloodstream during orgasm. Oxytocin causes monogamous pair bonding in females as vassopressin does in males. So.... you and your partner swing, you are chemically bonding with other people when you climax.

I suggest to you that if what you want is a lifelong sexual / loving relationship with someone else, that taking actions that form monogamous pair bonds with a third person is not helping you.

If you don't want a monogamous lifelong sexual loving relationship with someone else, then you probably are not a good match for this discussion board.

[color:"blue"]I just love it when someone who has been an unfaithful liar most of their marriage posts about what is "fair":[/color]


"That's not fair" ....

How about we elevate ourselves first by making certain we are being "fair" in our own marriages ... and then discuss what is and what is not morally responsible behavior to our spouses ....

Sound like a plan?
You cannot know what it is like to live in a new dream home built on tierra firma until you move out of your current crumbling house falling-down around you because you built it on lies and betrayal.

Simply put >>> you have NO EXPERIENCE

and you are not a GO-TO woman when someone asks:
What is it like to have a happy successful marriage?"

So, posting about what is "fair" in a hypothetical situation is pretty much the summit of your marriage wisdom.

Work on YOUR situation a bit more, become responsible for some actual honesty in your marriage ... and then return for some fun hypothetical discussions....

Aphrodite, you are a not a wife who is ready to dispense wisdom about being a good wife .... you are in a broken-down-lie-infested life that you built .... turn to your own construction-site & stop trying to become the spokesperson for what is "fair".

Let's discuss morally responsible behaviors that are intended to make our lives, our childrens' lives and our cherished spouses' lives .... more peaceful, loving and happier.

Aphrodite, in all my time on this board, I have never seen anyone who was so fogged out they actually defended swinging and tried to make a case it would not harm children. Since I don't think you even USE reason, I won't even bother to respond, because it would be wasted.

I can only say that I understand completely now why you are a serial cheater and feel very sorry for your husband. I just hope to God you don't reproduce.

Aphrodite cannot help herself... you will see from the below that in fact she truly is "nuts." And not only nuts, but her father was an ASSS... uranus. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if I had an open marriage I would not be embarrassed if other people knew because I wouldn't be doing anything wrong.

I can imagine that you would be in your element with that one.

You really need some fiber in that diet....MORAL fiber.

You do have an open marriage...your husband just doesn't know it.

You have opened the door for numerous other men.

For goodness sakes...you screw others because you are bored and cannot find anything else to do...that isn't boring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

That door ain't only open...it's REVOLVING...

and Revolting to me.


It would be hard to take ANYTHING you say as having any merit at all.

JMHO
committed

YO Aphrodite,

You be sure and tell that to the AIDs nurse as she's changing your bed pan.

What I find amazing is how people that don't really want to have their minds changed about promiscuity or values in a traditional marriage come here and waste everybody's time including their own.

The truth is that they get married wanting something from their spouse. So if they are not committed, then they are USING their spouse.

This is a particularly vile concept when you consider that the betrayer does these things premeditated. This is not a rush of hormones that are screwing someone's mind up temporarily; this is a character flaw that is so deeply ingrained in a person that they may be incapable of changing their outlook.

Can you say Sociopath?

And honestly, I think that what every BS is truly SCARED of is that their S is a sociopath and can never be fixed.

Mebe, thank you! You are the only person who has given a reasonable argument against polyamorous relationships. People with poly-marriages are not being immoral, they simply choose to trade intimacy away for a reduced risk of abandonment (because if you can have someone else without leaving the relationship, the theory goes, you have no reason to leave the relationship.) Of course, many of them may not be aware of what they are giving up. It is better to explain what's missing than to do what some on this board are saying and just calling them bad or disgusting. That never persuades anyone.

Of course all this talk about God, religion, faith obscures the point. It has had a habit of doing that for eons. And Mebe.....IT is in fact the ONLY point. You see because someone doesn't want to belive that something is true and that that truth while freeing them also wants what is best for them and provides a set of rules (hard and fast, no waivering or misinterpretation) for that to happen does in no way make it any less true. To try and separate God and faith from our moral decision making and how affects us and those around us is to be naive and frankly lost.

Because you or others don't like to talk about God and his desire for how we live our lives doesn't make it any less meaningful or applicable. Sure you can put your head in the sand and say I don't believe in God and all that faith stuff. Still it doesn't change that it is what it is. Your attitude towards relationships is twisted and wrong and your desire to put God in a box and ignore him doesn't change that. People who like to put God aside are not thrilled with God's restictions on their activities and rather than conform and do what is good for them they instead want to rebel and do what it is that makes them feel good...two different approaches and two very different long term outcomes for these people

Pepperband said:
That's why I'm here.




That wasn't the question I was answering. The question was - is adultery without deception or permission just as immoral as adultery without deception (and with permission). I'm arguing that the use of deception always makes something more wrong, and it is NOT in my best interest to say this because I was a deceptive cheater not to long ago...well, still deceptive but only because I'm waiting for us to be geographically together first. But to say the two types of adultery are equal is to say that all my lying and sneaking around was no worse than if my husband gave me permission. I don't agree. I think my behavior was worse because it involved deception. If adultery with permission is just as bad that would mean my deception was not wrong. But it was wrong, so it must be worse than in the case of someone who has permission. I am bashing myself by saying this, you know.

MelodyLane, I'm not arguing that swinging is better than monogamy. Just that swingers are not the horrible people you would like to think they are. They are misguided and in some cases afraid of abandonment. And as for your rude comment...I will not be judged by a woman who tried to run over her husband with a car.

committedandlovi,

You said:
1- I've stopped. 2- You can't have an open marriage without knowing about it. The whole concept is that there is no deception. Do you really believe my acts of deception are less harmful than my having sex with other men? I sure don't. I think I should blamed for the deception just as much as the sex, perhaps more so.


No, that's not why but I know you are not really interested in why.

Resilient,

you wrote:
Bad argument because 1-That's what condoms are for. 2- Statistically, I'm more likely to die in a car accident. Does that mean I should stop driving?

I'm not arguing people SHOULD have open marriages. But there's a difference between something that is ill-advised and something that is morally wrong.

And I'm shocked that no one is agreeing with me that deception is not only wrong but makes other actions wrong or more wrong than they would be otherwise. Cheating is always worse than adultery with permission because the first involves deception while the other does not.

hopeandpray,

Your post is very bigoted. You should not make assumptions about the morals of people who don't think exactly like you do regarding religion. Religion never stopped anyone from cheating. Nearly all of the popular religious figures today have had affairs and multiple divorces. God can't even stop pedophile priests.

Aphrodite

It would be a big surprise to me if your husband has never cheated on you, I am sorry to say

because you are so distant from each other .... literally (geography) and emotionally (non-intimate)

I found this post of yours interesting:

HERE is the LINK

would you like to discuss this idea?

People with poly-marriages are not being immoral, they simply choose to trade intimacy away for a reduced risk of abandonment (because if you can have someone else without leaving the relationship, the theory goes, you have no reason to leave the relationship.)

That is some convoluted "logic" there.

People NEVER "trade" things of value to them. They hold onto those things. I guess intimacy isn't valued by people if it can be so easily traded.

Ah....but you HAVE left the relationship when sharing that intimacy.

The spirit and essence of the person is gone, and all that is left is the shell.

Who wants the shell?

Sad...sad...sad...

committed

This shows your arrogance and ignorance of God. God CAN stop anything but saw fit to not make us robots by providing free will. See, God will stop EVERYTHING at the appointed time. And once again, don't get mad at me for delivering the message that you or no one else can run from God. For on that day "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess". This is not me making that claim. You and others want to hide behind the idea that if you simply ignore basic truths that they aren't enforceable or will go away and I was only telling you that they will not. To not have chosen is to have chosen. No free passes or rides out of here.

Swap body fluids with 10,000 men and women for all I care, never know true intimacy and love that can only come from someone not living in this world. I won't stop you. I can't stop you. Only you can one day look in the mirror and be disgusted at who you have CHOSEN to be. At that time the good news is that there is One who is willing to see you for the beauty you really are.

From your other post:

[color:"red"]Now I have nothing to distract me, at least nothing that is as effective at distracting me and feel like I've just crashed. I don't know what to do with myself. Well that's not quite true. There are lots of boring but productive things I could do, but I don't feel like it. [/color]

You don't "feel" like doing the productive but BORING things. Isn't that what you said?

I erred in saying that you couldn't find anything else to do. You admit that you can...you just don't want to do them because they are BOR-ING. <cue the wahhh wahhh wahhh>

committed

I *think* I understand what you are saying ... If you are saying that chachanges is WRONG when he says that swingers experience adultery-betrayal like non-swingers (which is the crux of his arguement)

and I (and others) are saying

you agree to swinging = agree to cheating .... therefore there is no cause to cry "foul" when your spouse is screwing around

IS this what you are also saying????

Pepperband,

He's not very sociable, but he has always been hung up on his ex-wife even though as far as I know, he hasn't seen her for years, even before he met me. But if I had a choice, I'd rather that he cheated on me physically with a prostitute than to still have enough feelings for his ex that he refuses to get rid of her nude photo. But as far as anyone knows, she's still living on the streets doing drugs or possibly dead. How can I accuse him of cheating when he has no contact with her?

About my post...yeah that was my idea of Commitment to Stability (non-abandonment) as being a possible 11th need. I think I have partly solved the problem after reading The Gaslight Effect, though. He's definitely a gaslighter and I'm a first-stage gaslightee.

I am not saying you accuse him of anything

I am saying it is likely he feels emotiuonally abandoned BY YOU

and he is therefore vulnerable to a woman who meets his ENs and finds HIM attractive

Where did you develop this convoluted view of love and intimacy?