THANK YOU Piojitos. Your words are invaluable to me. I really need all of you at this time. Please accept my heartfelt thanks.

Hi India,
Your right in that you have gone beyond the realm of my personal experience. But I have read on this site for a year and know that many who are in your situation are encouraged to make an appointment with their Dr. for consideration of anti depressant medication. You and he should also be tested for STDs now.

This is a long and bumpy roller coaster ride. You sound like you are managing your emotions now but I know it is difficult. Are you and he able to spend some time together now? Are you still able to sleep in the same bed with him? Do you feel like you do want to recover this R? It sounds like he is telling you that he wants to recover. It is good if you can spend some time with him and still sleep together if it feels ok to you. You have a right to continue to observe his behavior to ensure that NC is established. It is certainly reasonable that you do not have [email]s@x[/email] until STD testing takes place.

How did he establish NC anyway? It would be good to call the Harley's for counseling. You will need good support to get through this and it will take time. Others here on this forum have recovered. So if this is what you want, I am sure you can do it. You have come this far--discovery, his acknowledgement of the A, and apparent no contact as well as the cooperation of OW's H--you have accomplished a lot in a very short period of time. The rest will take a lot more time.

I tend to agree that you have enough going on right now with all this and that paternity can wait. My thoughts are with you.
Lake

Lake & Piojitos...thanx again.
I agree with you both, there is enough going on right now to add more. I have come a long way in this process, a lot further than I could ever imagine, and it's only when Lake enumerated what I have achieved that I realized that. Thank you for making me see that.
The NC is still an issue. Last night she broke the NC again, and called his mobile phone, left a v.mail & then texted at least 3 times with dramatic & almost threatening msgs. She is demanding from my H that he "make me" stop all contact with OWH".
My H showed them to me, and although at first he was biting her bait, by pushing me, and by delivering her msg to me, he finally understood that her msgs to him have nothing to do with me or what I do, but rather a pathetic & disrespectful attempt once again to establish a link btwn them. He was shocked when I disclosed to him that OWH is away this week, and that the minute he is out of her sight she contacts my H with any "excuse".
I tried to make him see that she is still disrespecting his choice, that she has not accepted the end to this and that she continues to believe she can come in btwn us...in other words, she does not give a rat's *** about us, our M or even him, and she will be very glad to destroy it.
So, as you see, I am still dealing with the basics. The other stuff will have to be dealt with later.
To answer your question Lake, my H established NC through a NC email. He maintains that he has not broken it since, although I have some doubts about that the days immediately following his letter. In any case, as far as I can see, of course, he is in front of me now so he wants/has to comply and has an interest in showing me that he is sticking to his word. I know that this cannot be v exciting for him any more though b/c he has disclosed everything to me. The only question that remains btwn them may be the child issue...but that will have to be addressed later.
I would be lying if I said that I can see the end of this right now. I am trying to stay afloat and fight, but I cannot make any long term commitments as to the resolution of this. I have a lot of pain to sort through, for things he put me through for so long, since 2004. Comments, words, his absence in our marriage, his betrayal with his feelings, his affections, his body. I hope my counselor can help me with that.
For the time being, we are spending time together, talking, discussing, sometimes doing things together (walking, going to a restaurant, movie), we are building some closeness, but I cannot retake a full relationship w him yet. We are sleeping in separate rooms, and he has been v respectful of that. He understands that I should offer that to him when I will be ready.
I have some hope for us, but there is sooo much to get over. This was so huge. I never thought he could do this to me, to us, to the R that we have built over the last 11 years. I have to try to overcome this, and see if I can live without fear. The child issue scares me v much. I will tackle that when I will be ready.
If you have any thoughts, comments, etc...please feel free to post. I sincerely hope other people can benefit from my experience as much as I have been benefit from your great advice.
All the best,
India

Any replies? I am still hoping for some feedback.
I have seen my counselor once again and she believes that I am displaying all the signs of severe depression. And I have not yet told her about the possible paternity issue.
My H maintains that I should have NC with OWH anymore. That it will threaten any possible recovery for us. That it could open a possible retaliation on OW's part. He maintains that it threatens our bond, by my relying on OWH for information I will be "putting my H on trial" and that in itself will be the turning away from our issues and seeking comfort in OWH instead of him. The only thing that I need answered is the paternity issue...that it why I feel I need to maintain some contact, even if it's not constant, I may still need him for that. Any thoughts? Is my H trying to protect us or just trying to protect his futher exposure? Can/should I just let the paternity issue go, or pursue it?
I understand these questions may go beyond the realm of your expertise, but if anybody has any thoughts...I'd love to hear them. I am too confused to make sense of what my H is saying?
All the best to all.
India

Sorry but this is typical of a WH trying to protect OM. You stated yourself that OW has no respect for your M. Tell WH that you are doing what you have to do to protect your M. He is in no position to advise you what is best for you. If he doesn't like it, he knows where the door is. Don't let WH control you. I would send every single thing that OW says to her BH from now till eternity. As long as there is any contact on any level, there is still an active affair. The best way to kill an affair is expose it raw. In addition, your WH will have to see what a bad person OW really is through all this.

Are you taking AD's? If not see your doctor. They will help but they take time to kick in (several weeks).

I felt you needed time to deal with the immediate grief of the fresh revelation. Now I think maybe it is time to talk to OWH about the paternity. Get this one over and done with. It is the biggest problem you seem to have right now and it is resolvable. In addition, your WH might even have some doubt and think there is a possibility he is the father. If so, it will make it hard for him to let go of OW. If he knows he is not the father, maybe he will feel less of a connection. OTOH, if he is the father, OW will be part of your life, in some capacity, from now on. Are you prepared to deal with that?

Hi India,
It seems reasonable to me that you contact OW's H regarding ensuring no contact. That is a primary reason to be in touch with him. Also, it sounds as though you have not been in touch with him lately as he is out of town. Am I right? However, his wife, the OW, has been attempting to contact your H and using your contact with her H as the excuse. So I agree that you should forward all that attempted contact to OWH so that he can see that OW is still trying to stay connected.

As for the stuff your H is saying to you about not contacting OW's H as it would affect your recovery with him, I am not sure why he is jumping to this conclusion so quickly. From what I understand from your posts, you have not had all that much contact with OW's H and your contact has been about sharing info regarding the affair and ensuring no contact.

I have read discussions on this board where BS's wonder if they are getting too involved with the other BS and using them as a source of support, etc. But you are no where near this situation. You are still so early in discovery and early in conversations with OW's H that I am certain that this is not going on. Your husband may be coming up with that explanation so that he can help OW get what she wants--as much secrecy toward her own BH as she can get. I agree that she is also making up excuses to stay in contact with your H.

Like Piojitos said on the paternity issues.
Lake

Hi there my friends,
My situation has just gotten even more complicated and desperate. Last night I found out more devastating news about the extent and consequences of the A.

I have discovered that on Mar 13 (the day of my H's Bday) they had an abortion. Now, although all the details are slowly coming together, and I am still in the discovery phase of these shocking news, I have very good reason to believe that it is 100% factual.

I have been surveying his personal notes, business journal, calls, paperwork, etc. Last night I found the evidence in his business journal. He took down all the notes, number, contact name of person attending them, cost, duration, etc...and an appointment at this # for the date afore mentioned. I did a reverse business number search, with a hunch that it was related to a health appointment (at first, I thought it might be a fertility or genetic testing clinic). I found all the details online: it is a very well-known abortion clinic in our area. I checked out the details on their site, the price, instructions, and all other details on this note match exactly the profile of a surgical abortion < 12 weeks of pregnancy.

I cannot begin to explain what I feel. I think I have actually blocked all feeling, and I am just in shock.
I think I have only begun to open Pandora's box.
The date and time frame match perfectly what was going on w my H at that time, and what was happening to us. He was distracted, distant, worried, agitated, low libido (none actually). He was stressed, nervous, and depressive. He started developing physical symptoms such as muscle spasms and began to take muscle relaxants. He also directed his anger, hurt, and disappointment at me, which I was not able to place. It came to a point when I considered leaving for a while, all we did was argue.

It is also the same month that OW announced she was leaving the company and found another job.
My suspicions are confirmed. I know it inside me. Just the same, I will continue the research to see if I can obtain ALL the details.

Obviously, I will also speak to OWH and disclose everything to him when I have more concrete evidence.
I will also have to confront my H w this at some point although have not yet decided when.

I do not know if this is a workable situation. I hate to write this on this site, but I am very afraid this may be the end of my marriage-building road.
I think I will also need to seek legal advice.

I am sorry to lay all of this on you, and hope not to discourage your efforts in your R's.

Again, I plead with any and all of you to let me know your thoughts or advice about my situation.
God bless you all.
India

I am sorry for the pain this causes you. First I notice that you are having to find this all on your own. WH is not willing to disclose these facts. I think that makes it even more painful because now you have to wonder what else is hidden away. Was that March 13 of this year?

I think it is good that all the facts come out now rather than later. I think the DNA test is probably a very good idea now just to clear up any doubt. I would disclose to OWH as soon as you can with just the evidence you have. I would alos make a photocopy of that journal and hide it away for safe keeping.

Only you can decide what is best for you. Please get the legal advice just in case. I'm just so sorry for you.

Hi India,
I am so sorry for all of this. I agree with Piojitos on everything. Your language in this last letter to us does sound like you are numb and your language sounds almost formal, like you are holding yourself in--very understandable. I suggest that you may want to change the title of your thread so that you get some advice from others who have dealt with similar situations as yours. There are people on this site who have dealt with issues of paternity as well as "other children". As piojitos said in the past, it is not likely that your H is the father, but the issues are there for you to work through. You might want to change your thread to add: "paternity and abortion issues" Again, I am sorry you find yourself in this situation. Make copies of everything and keep them in a safe place. Seek good legal counsel. You have many decisions to make and choices regarding your life. You do not have any children in this marriage, right?
Lake

Hi MB friends,
I read your posts yesterday and again thank you for your kind words and support. I am in front of the computer now and I am not sure what to type. I am still in shock.
I faced my H with what I knew today after a long, painful couple of days of no sleep, hurt, pain, doubt, etc.
I did not even have to show him the page from his journal that I had ripped out. I told him I knew the last piece of the puzzle that I was missing: his secret. And he broke down crying in front of me. He sobbed and pleaded with me to give him an opportunity to work on our M once again. I have told him I am not capable of doing that now...and possibly never.
He recounted the entire story for me from the very beginning, and I listened to a detailed account of all the painful details of his A, his betrayal, the abortion, the sexual relationship, etc...
He also voluntarily offered to me that it was not the only person...at least two other EA's in the last 2 years with other women from work, that happened while he was in the A with the main woman.
He says he wants to hold on to the hope that we can work this out. But as you are probably thinking right now, I don't think I have a fighting chance. He gave up on our R 3 years ago, and I cannot rebuild that, get back the those years where I did not count in his life.
I do not think he is the H that I deserve or the man that I can trust with the rest of my life. I have to be true to those feelings.
To answer Piojitos: yes that was Mar 13, 07, the exact day of his 40th BDay. I had thrown him a surprise Bday party on Mar.9 with all his friends, family and colleagues which OW attended (at that point she was pregant w his child and they both knew, just a few days shy of the abortion).
To answer Lake's question, there are no children in this marriage, so the damage is limited to just us.
I have been given a good reference to a lawyer and hope to see him soon to get some advice, be prepared for other alternatives.
Anyway, I am surviving...it even surprises me, but I know this is again another beginning for me. A beginning of a new process of grief that i will have to deal with. I have not been able to shed any tears yet. I have no doubt that will come, probably after he leaves tomorrow eve, and I may come apart...but I hope to continue turning to you, my kind friends for some help.
Thank you,
India

For me, this is absolutely the worst part of the A - them sharing secrets amd me being the outsider in my own M. The loss of intimacy that will never be fully regained.

I'm glad you finally seem to have full disclosure. The monsters never seem as scary when we can see them for what they really are.

It seems odd to me that he would be cheating on the woman he was cheating with. That makes me feel like there is something seriously wrong with your H that he doesn't recognize.

Are you taking any kind of AD's? They will help you get through the worst part. Before I took them I could barely function. I don't even remember how I got through most days.

Please look after yourself. It will never get any worse than this - only better. You will survive this and you will be happy again.

You are so right Piojitos, that is the absolute worst part of this A. They were complicit, and left me out completely, vulnerable, unprotected. I was alone, abandoned. And the gravity of their secret would have fed this eternally. I cannot begin to describe how that felt, even back then it devastated me without even knowing the truth at that point.

This is also why I feel that until OWH knows EVERYTHING, there will always be a feeling that they are still keeping secrets for each other, and therefore always a connection for what they shared. It will not die, it will always exist, and they will have to be grateful to each other for that.

My H says he will speak to her H and confirm to him that they had a 2.5 yr A, but not only am I not sure he will do it, but he told me he will not be able to tell him the whole truth (the possible paternity issue, the pregnancy, and the abortion). Therefore the secrets will continue to exist.

I will not continue to coach my H through this. I will do what is right for me.

I also agree that my H has issues that transcend this A, his continued behaviour to turn to other women for emotional support outside of this M. That is why I am not feeling hopeful for a future together. He says he will address that through counseling, but I am not sure I can wait 3 more years for this to be sorted out. That is how long this has been going on.If that is what will happen then let it happen individually, and we can see if the future brings us together as 2 whole & mature individuals. I do not have faith that he can be in any R like this. And I need to be happy.
I will be visiting my doctor to get the AD's, although they scare me a little, but prob best to have the option if things get really bad.
I will also be setting up the appointment for legal counsel, want to be informed.
Thank you for your kind words. I have faith that I will be happy.
I find comfort in your words and your story, and know now how brave you have been throughout your process.
All the best to you.
Sincerely,
India

This is how I felt very early on. Now, almost two years later, I see it very differently. The reason is that I believe some (many?) WSs look back on the A quite differently than they viewed it during the A. During the A, everything is perfect and wonderful. After the A dies, many WSs look back in disgust. Yes they still share a secret. But that secret holds a very different meaning for them. It is a secret they wish would go away. But it cannot. I don't fault you for your view. I held it for a long time. Now I see it from a different perspective. I guess part of that is by default. If I still believed that WW held the A on a pedestal, I would not be married to her and I wouldn't even be having these thoughts. But there was a time when I dwelled more on the secrets they shared than the physical act itself. I obsessed about what they discussed. Turns out it wasn't very much. Due to language and accents, they didn't understand each other all that well.

If I were in your position, I would talk to OWH myself. WSs lie. Your WH will not tell OWH the truth and he deserves the truth. If they are not his children, I think he should know that. I also think it will help you whether you decide to divorce or not. You deserve the truth.

I got pretty lucky on my AD's. They had no obvious side-effects. To be honest I never really felt like they were doing anything. Maybe it was just a placebo effect but I was able to concentrate better at work. I remember weeks prior to taking them where I just sat and stared at my computer screen for 8 hours. Lucky for me that, where I work, that's considered above average performance.

I got the impression that WH is moving out? Is that true? Where is he going?

No, WH is not moving out now, but leaving for another business trip overseas (planned well before any of this came to light). He will be gone again for 3 weeks and it can potentially be a month before we see each other again.
I know it will be very hard, and it is a separation that could decide the fate of our M. Although I know that I need to do that, have the peace that I need to calm down, deal with this, seek some advice, etc. Being in the same household w him since this last discovery has been so painful, so difficult.

Today he sobbed uncontrollably in front of me for 2 hours, could not go to work, could not even walk the dog yet. It paralyzes me, hurts, I feel pain for him as well, and I can't help but try and comfort him somewhat to the fact that "everything will be ok" (whatever that means, together or not, one day with time, healing will come).
I am emotionally spent. I need some time and space to recover, to take care of myself and not have to deal with my H's emotions.

We are talking, but I am trying to make it clear to him that I do not see an "us" right now, and that I cannot be there for him unconditionally anymore. He has promised to seek the support that he needs. Yesterday he told one of our closest friends the entire story. He felt relief, unchained, understood, and that is why I keep encouraging him to seek the help from people that are well intentioned and truly care for his well-being.

Anyway, I am sorry that I am rambling on about all this...I just feel that it is finally starting to pour out, rather keeping myself contained like Lake said.

Although, we are still offering each other some support, I know in my heart that I am not ready to commit to anything else regarding our future at this point. Maybe soon I will, but for now I need to deal with this.

Piojitos, regarding how your feelings have changed re: your WW's view of the A, I am so glad that she saw it for what it was: a fictional world of denial, and lies.
I agree that maybe time will make me feel different, but in my case it is so complicated by the abortion, and possible paternity issue, that it is very hard to trust that there are no more secrets. I cannot leave any stone unturned.

All the best again to my friends. Hope all is well for you as well.
India

It sounds like the timing of the trip will suit you. It bothers me a little bit that this still seems to be all about him. He cheated on you. He got OW pregnant. He got busted and now he needs your support. How is he trying to help you? You've been damaged far more than he has and yet he needs comfort while offering you none? It just doesn't ring true somehow. It's almost like he is gaslighting you.

Whether time will see you in a recovered marriage or it will see you in a new life, time will make you whole again. You will survive this.

I strung up white "rice" lights all over our patio cover after we first got here. We have a swing out there. I used to lay out there all day long and just stare at the lights without moving for hours on end. I believe I spent several weeks like that. Eventually the shock wears off. But not soon enough.

Piojitos, your story of watching the lanterns really moved me. I completely identify with your experience of wanting to retreat to a peaceful place where you can only contemplate things from a distance. I am so happy that is in the past for you and you have been able to be happy again. That is true testament of your strength.
I am not yet at that place. I am in too much turmoil to be able to gaze from the outside in.

H just left and I am completely spent. I have absolutely no energy and feel as though I am going to collapse at any minute. I am hoping to rest and gather some strength, although my mind is still processing all the information from the latest discovery and the subsequent conversations.

You are right about my H overwhelming me w emotions. It is clear from his reaction to my discovery of the abortion that it is a very serious issue. If he is letting all his emotions out, and crying and sobbing due to the pain that experience caused him, how come I can't?
I think I understand the gist of "gaslighting" but if you could explain in more detail what you mean, it would really be helpful.
Thanks again,
India

Well I'm not sure it is too relevant at this point but then again maybe it is. As an outside observer, I am still surprised at WH's breakdown. It is not often you see genuine and total remorse so quickly. Then again, maybe his conscience has just finally caught up with him. But the two of you are in a situation where you are the one who should be angry. You are the victim. He is a willing participant. Abortions take a lot of thought and planning. This was all cooly premeditated. And yet when the confrontation takes place, through genuine emotion or smoke and mirrors, he convinces you that he is the victim and you end up comforting him. But he sure got himself off the hook. If I didn't know better, I would think he was trying to manipulate you and your actions. That's what I meant.

Now that he is away or soon will be, take this time to yourself. I suggest you have as little contact with him as possible. Try to sort out how you feel without external influence. Sit and stare at the lights. I usd to sit and think and try to process all the new information. I still remember how I could go from hope to despair in a millisecond as a thought or mental image came into my head. Fortunately WW left me alone to my own thoughts during these times. She was more interested in her loss of OM than what I felt or did anyway.



Because he has known about this for a long time. He knows every intimate detail. There is nothing hidden from him. You just got a cold slap in the face and you are still in shock/denial. I expect it will catch up with you. Probably while WH is away and you don't have the external stimuli. At the moment, you are in fight mode. No time to grieve for the fallen just yet.

Hello friends,
After a few days of silence I wanted to post some news. I have had a few really hard days. I have been having episodes of anxiety and shortness of breath. I went to the MD who did not want to prescribe me Ad's, but rather a natural herbal substitute (St John's Wort). Also referred me to a psychiatrist.
I had a breakdown on Monday and it culminated in my H realizing that he had to help me. So, he came to see (after a lot of pushing) that he should disclose EVERYTHING to OWH himself. So, he called him and put me on conference call so I could be witness to their conversation. He confirmed to OWH about their 2 1/2 yr A (although he failed to give him the details oftheir sexual R starting at the time of her conception of her first child) and also told him about the recent pregnancy and the abortion. I have been a bit relieved since then with a feeling that I am finally a bit more protected, b/c I finally feel like my immediate nightmare of their A is finally coming to an end.
BUT I am now left with all the emotions of his betrayal to me, to our M, and the lingering feeling that this went too far and too deep for me to understand or forgive.
I have contacted a lawyer for advice, and will be seeing him in August.
I know you cannot tell me what to do next, but I am hopeful that you can share some thoughts or questions with me that could shed some light.
I am grieving now. Grieving the end of our R as I knew it. However, still cannot make sense of the loss of my M for the last 3 yrs. I know my H is trying to do everything to let me know that he wants to work this out, but I have brought him to this point (he even acknowledged to me that he would have never told me about the abortion had I not discovered it). We have been at this point in the road before when we went for counseling 3 years ago to work on our M. I walked away from that experience being hopeful and trusting that we would both do what it takes to rebuild our R again. And immediately after that false sense of security that I had (merely a couple of months), he turned around and began this torrid A that has lasted the last 2 1/2 yrs of our lives. I am very disappointed and feel that I cannot trust him to hurt me again.
I am open to any thoughts.
Thanks,
India

The shortness of breath may be from hyperventilating. Exercise may help - check with your doctor. The anxiety is normal at this point, and you are justified in being anxious.

It is good that your husband exposed the affair to the husband. That doesn't happen very often around here - hardly ever. So that is encouraging.

But your hubby is going to have to come up with a plan to make you feel protected. He needs to be an open book, he needs to be able to be reached on the phone at all times, you need his passwords, and he must account for his time, and come home directly from work.

The two of you will need to go to marriage counseling, and he needs IC to figure out why he would take such a terrible chance in losing his marriage.

Take your time in making any decisions. You can ALWAYS divorce him. But we recommend working on the marriage so that you can look back in 5 years and know you did all that you could.

Thank you for your words Believer. They reassure me.