You are definitely on the path to recovery. Keep up the hard work.

Alcohol... BAD stuff. That is what gave my FWH the courage and the stupidity to do what he did. It's fuel to the flames.

Keep up the silent gestures of love. Those go a long way.

My heart goes out to you because I see alot of my H in your situation. And if he can make it as far as he has... then you can too. Because YOU are more proactive right now. But DO NOT give up. Be vigilant. Keep the goal in your mind: your wife and your M and love for her.

PG... how are you doing? Hope your holiday goes well!

In the last week, I feel like I have been on a roller coaster. There were some days where my wife expressed anger, other days where she seemed cold and distant, and still others where things were actually a bit warm and I sensed some affection from her. Currently, she is waffling between distant and angry.

Although the roller coaster has been difficult, I am taking an attitude that this is part of the process and I must be patient and give space in order for the process to run its course. The uncertainty of knowing whether she wants me in her life, however, is difficult and at times I find myself lonely and wanting to reach out to her and find affection. She has made it clear, however, that she does not want any sort of affection from me and has even rejected what few compliments I sent her way.

I met with my counselor on Tuesday and had a decent session, although much time was spent just bringing him up to speed. The major thing we discussed was my not owning the decisions my wife and I make jointly. In other words, my "sacrificing" has a tendency to lead to both expectations (i.e., quid pro quo) and resentment. That resentment, combined with the resentment I may have carried regarding the lack of sex in our marriage, could help me ignore the consequences of my actions. This is not love, or immature love at best. So, I am now trying to take complete ownership of our decisions.

One of the things we are struggling with right now is the degree to which I am a different person. My wife, based on my past actions, has no reason to believe that I will not betray her in the future and act out sexually. I, however, strongly feel that something has changed in me. Since our first bomb in February, I have not really had a desire to act out, despite the fact that I have been more alone during this time than in any time since I met my wife. My understanding of the motivations behind my actions and my learning new techniques to sooth and distract myself have made me a new person. Combined with my now very acute sense of the harm my actions cause, I have a completely different outlook on life and fidelity. My wife doesn't see this change in me. I am willing to sit back and wait for my actions to speak for themselves, but there are times when my wife will let tell me that I will never change and that I can never be trusted. At those times, I want to forcefully express how different I am, and how my word now means more than it used to. Should I just agree with her and say that I will never change (I don't think this is a good tactic)? Should I tell her politely that I disagree, but time will tell (perhaps this is a good tactic)? Or, should I tell her politely that I disagree and here is why I think I'm a different person (what I have been doing and has a negative effect)? I think the middle course of action may be the best at this point, what do you think?

pg ~ addictions are very sneaky and very powerful. Your intentions may be genuine here...but...

How often are you seeing your counselor? Has your counselor suggested a 12 step program?

I'll tell you what makes me uneasy about your posts....

Your posts are very focused on your wife...you've lost some control there, and seem to be very focused on getting it back.

Addicts manipulate and control as easily as breathing air.

I fear that your changes are motivated by a desire to keep her from leaving you, rather than a honest desire to change...for yourself.

I have been seeing my counselor since the end of February. It started out as every week and then switched to every other week when we both felt that there was no imminent danger of me acting out sexually. Right now (since the last bomb in June), we have been meeting every one to two weeks depending on schedule (for example, I would have seen him next Tuesday, which would have been one week, but he is on vacation next week).

My counselor has not recommended a 12-step program and to be honest, I have a relatively strong negative (and visceral) opinion of 12-step programs. I didn't always feel this way, and before I met my wife, did actually attend a 12-step program on my own volition in an attempt to deal with my addiction. At this point, I strongly feel that individual sessions with a counselor are by far the better way to approach my addiction.


I think the reason my posts are very focused on my wife is because marital relationships and trying to deal with one's spouse seem to be the defining characteristics of just about every post on this site. I felt it was somewhat inappropriate to focus on myself and my growth. In fact, if you read the longest post I've made in this thread (about my own self-revelations) I sound quite apologetic for cluttering up the thread with my own self-discovery. If my posts are too focused upon my wife and our relationship, perhaps that is because I misunderstood the thrust of the message boards.

I don't think this necessarily translates into me not having an honest desire to change. In the beginning (after the first and second bombs) that may have been true. After the third bomb, however, I do think my desire for change is genuine desire to change - for myself. How else can I be happy; the addiction is temporary happiness.

Concerning control and manipulation, your insight does cause me great pain, and is a good reminder that I need to be cautious in what I say or do. In fact, my wife has indicated to me that when we first started dealing with this issue, everything I said was an attempt to manipulate her into forgiving me. It took me a while, but shortly after the final bomb, I came to realize that this was true, in part. If this is a part of me because I am an addict, then it is a part of me I want exorcised. In the end, I know that I will not be happy if my wife chooses to stay with me because she was coerced. I will only be happy with an authentic decision.

I guess, in the end, my words don't really mean much. Over time, an extended period of time, my actions are the only thing that will be believable. In the meantime, however, I need to communicate and struggle with the best way to do that.

Well...it's my experience....that if you change yourself...you will change the dynamic of your marriage. You don't have to get your wife to respond or change...

I am not saying that you should not talk about your wife...but I think you absolutely should post about your own self discovery.

You can not change what you do not acknowledge, and the only PERSON you can change is yourself.

So if you want your marriage to change, focus on what you can change, and that is you.

I will tell you, I have a sex addicted brother who told me that for him personally, he could not do the MB program - he found it too easy to abuse and far too easy to use in manipulating his wife.

If your wife decides that the best thing for herself is to try to heal post-divorce, then what?

Do you continue on your path of self-recovery, or do you go back to the same old same old?

Which is exactly what I will continue to do. As I have been for the past four months, I will continue the process of self-discovery and change.


I will continue to post about my own self-discovery and at the same time try to get a better understanding about how to relate to my wife in the hopes of saving our marriage and building a better one.


I think it would be an entirely unfair reading of my posts to say that I was trying to change my wife. Rather, I have openly and honestly acknowledged my own problems and have asked if it is possible to save my marriage despite my problems.


I think I understand why you were so quick to tell me that I need manipulate. By putting me, a unique person, into the "sex addict" box, you have completely figured me out. No need to focus on my unique situation and the way I am dealing with it.

Yes, I am a sex addict, but sex addiction is not a one size fits all category. I didn't go out seeking hookups with prostitutes. I didn't go home with strangers from bars. I didn't have to have sex with another person on a regular basis. Rather, in times when I felt unloved, the only way I knew how to soothe and comfort myself was to seek out sexual gratification. In other words, my acting out was tied to a very specific trigger. It was not a part of my everyday life, despite how my self-deprecating posts may make it appear. My addiction was cyclical just as my feelings of lovelessness were cyclical. Learning to love myself and soothe myself in those moments, can help control the trigger and lead to real change. I'm not convinced this type of sex addiction makes manipulative behavior such a fundamental part of my life as you seem to think it does.


From this line, I get the sense, you are convinced that I cannot possibly recover, that because I am in the "sex addict" box there is absolutely no hope for me. I also get the sense that you are trying to bait me and make me say that I know I will continue on my path of self-recovery. In the end, however, only my actions and time will tell, despite my current desire for change.

Call Jennifer or Steve @ MB for a recovery plan. One that both of you can work with. Read SAA & HNHN. Apply HNHN principals which will teach you HOW to communicate with your W.

Let her know we are here and if she wants to talk or bounce a few of her feelings off of us, she can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We do understand what she is going through and if you want to know, check out the stages link in my sig line. Then get prepared.

All the best.
L.

PG:

Don't get to defensive with BR.

She knows the addiction stuff.

She asked you some very valid questions.

I don't think she was trying to place you in the "sex addict" box.

But I see you wanting to be there.

It gives you a crutch. See>>>> I'm a sex addict!

Keep working your issues. That's the important part.

LG

Thanks lg. You are right, I did get a bit defensive with br. One thing is for sure, enough flags have been raised for me that I definitely need to discuss the whole manipulation concept with my counselor.

Let's just hope I don't get addicted to counseling!

Don't fall into the trap of getting addicted to "why" "why' "why"

which can be an endless series of selfish navel-gazing

it's MOST important to learn new behaviors and replace old habits

it is far less important to learn "why"

"why" can go on and on ... and can become more self-indulgent diversions

changing old habits and behaving better is a gift to your wife

pg ~ I am not putting you in a box.

Your situation is not unique either tho.

I live with an active alcoholic, I am in a family riddled with addiction. So I happen to have a pretty good read - thats all.

You'll find, by reading on these boards, that not one single adulterer is unique. Oh some of the details are different...but the script, the behavior, the personal fears and weaknesses.....its so repeative, its almost boring. Infidelity, sex addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addiciton....the basics are all the same.

And...ironically enough, every single addict thinks they are different, special, unique...

That rule doesn't apply to me! My situation is different! That is almost the addiction marching song. It's one of the most common excuses for why the addict doesn't need to examine a particular area of his/her life and responsibilities.

Am I saying this to lock you in a box and abuse you?

No. I am saying this stuff because if you don't get it, your wife is going to leave you.

So if you want your wife to ever trust you again, if you want her to stop running and to give you another chance, you don't have the luxury of screwing around with self delusion.

Addiction is a sick dance that usually involves more than one person. Your wife has danced this dance, knowingly or not, with you for a long time.

If she's got some good therapy and support herself, its not going to be long before she is going to be able to tell what is "more of the same" or "new and improved".

And I disagree with you about trying to change your wife.

Your goal is to get her to stay in the marriage. A worthy goal....IF you have HER best interests at heart...not your own.

Your posts are all about her reaction to whatever you are doing.

THAT is the addiction manipulation my friend.

You have got to look hard and deep within yourself and seek out help and support from others who havev been successful at addiction recovery to be the best you that you can be.

If you don't think a 12 step program is your answer, thats fine. But then you need to find an alternatie network of people who will honestly support you and hold you accountable. In isolation, you will surely fail.

Yes, you may have destroyed your marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am in a somewhat similar situation as your wife, in that my husband was in a long-term situation. He had an affair for 10 years. If I kept finding out new and shocking details every month, I am afraid I would feel very much like your wife. In fact, I would probably be single by now if that happened to me. I needed to have it all put on the table on Day 1. (Well of course stuff dribbled out after that, but I knew the bulk of the betrayal very early on.) I know that’s not what you needed to hear – sorry. Even with knowing almost everything (I think?) and having him be an open book, it is shocking to the core to find out how deceitful your “best friend” and husband can be. We are together (18 mos past d-day) but I can’t tell you that we’ll always be together, or that I will ever trust him.

My husband also tends to be emotionally distant and let me tell you, that does NOT help. When you feel the urge to create distance, move closer.

It is incredibly difficult to be married to someone who is royally messed up (yet hid things so well) and whose failings become YOUR cross to bear. The resentment about the unfairness of it all is almost too much, sometimes.

I disagree that it’s not important to focus on the “why.” Because the “why” often speaks to an individual’s personal issues that need to be fixed. I realize this may clash with the MB philosophy, but the bottom line is that someone who deceives so easily, and for so long, is simply a broken soul. The “why” is just that -- you are broken. If you can find out why you are broken – what is it in YOU that made it so easy to cross those horrible lines and lie, lie, lie -- – and fix it, your wife may give you a second chance. I see that you have made some progress in this area. That’s great! By all means, stick with the once-a-week counseling session.

And, you can’t force her to take you back. You can only hope that she is gracious enough to try. Maybe it would be best if you gave her the space she is requesting. She might realize – if you are absent – that you have redeeming qualities after all, and that she would like to try saving the relationship.

You said, "In the last week, I feel like I have been on a roller coaster. There were some days where my wife expressed anger, other days where she seemed cold and distant, and still others where things were actually a bit warm and I sensed some affection from her. Currently, she is waffling between distant and angry."


It will be like this for a long, long time. We are 18 months out, and things are still like this for us. The good periods last longer and the bad periods are fewer and further between, but they are definitely there. And frankly, I have no intention of glossing over anything or stuffing my feelings, only to surface later and haunt me. You will need to be patient. Keep doing what you are doing but sadly, time is not on your side.

Pep and BR have given you some really good and hard advice. What they've said I will agree with. I've only been able to give you insight to your W's feelings since I was in a similar situation. That can only help the symptoms not the source. In order to help your addiction, heed the advice given by those two. Addiction sucks for everyone involved. But recovery is harder but worth the extra effort. The reward you'll gain from therapy and hard work will be years of happiness later.

Thanks all for your comments. Despite the name "self"-discovery cannot happen without some constructive feedback from others. While I may bristle at some feedback, and even disagree with others, I do think it is important to get hit on the head a few times.

This weekend, I had a moment where I made a realization regarding my selfish behavior. I was watching the girls (7 week old twins) and boys while my wife was at a counseling session. There were some things I wanted to get done around the house (general housekeeping). I wanted to get this stuff done for a few reasons: it makes me happy to accomplish things and I thought it would make my wife happy to see what I did (manipulation? I have always been like this, even before the first bomb). On the other hand, one of the girls really needed my attention - she needed to be held and comforted. So, instead of stopping what I was doing, I found myself carrying her around with me while I was trying to get things done with one hand. Only after trying this for a while, did it finally occur to me that neither the housekeeping nor the comforting was working. I was going to have to decide, which will I focus on. I decided that it was much more important to comfort my daughter than to keep housekeeping. In making that decision, however, I realized that even trying to get things done around the house while my daughter needed comforting was selfish. I was placing my wants & desires (whatever the motivation) above those of my daughter. I think in the past I have deluded myself into thinking that if I am housekeeping so that my wife is happy, I am not really doing it for me. In other words, I tricked myself into thinking that the housekeeping itself was a selfless act. But that is not true. Whatever the motivation, I wanted the housekeeping done. Satisfying my wants was so important I couldn't let go to help someone else.

Recently I did something differently than I wish I would in an ideal world and I would like to get your feedback.

When I got into work last Friday, there was an email in my work inbox from someone I had a physical and emotional relationship in 1994 (before I met my wife). At the time, she was married, but supposedly separated. At the time we had the relationship, it started as online, but was very intense. We met one time (she came to visit) and we engaged in physical sexual activity. After we met in person, we continued to communicate, through chat and phone. For a while, I was very into her on an emotional level and even imagined what life would be like if I lived with her.

When I first read the email, my gut reaction was that I should print out the email and bring it home to show my wife. When discussing with a friend (whose wife is going through an EA, and possibly PA right now), he suggested that I should reconsider because it relates to a relationship that occurred prior to meeting my wife. When I left the office for the day, I made a decision to heed his advice (by the way, I did tell my wife about the email yesterday). Here is the thing - I am not sure why I chose to not tell my wife. Perhaps writing this will help sort that out. Perhaps you can give me insight.

There are a multitude of possible reasons, all of which may be partly to account for my decision. But, since I am in the process of self-discovery, I think I need to figure out which thoughts/emotions held ultimate sway.

On one level, I actually wanted to respond to her. But, that was a very shallow and fleeting level. I knew I didn't want to communicate with her. I knew that if I opened up a dialogue with her that it could be very dangerous (given how much I was into her emotionally back in 1994). In fact, if I had received the email a year ago, I may have made a different decision. But, with where I am right now, the desire to respond was fleeting. My more authentic and core desire was to ignore her and let it go away. Perhaps, however, it was my guilt (selfish - I know) for even having a fleeting desire to respond that played a part in we choosing not to tell my wife right away.

I also was afraid of confrontation. Last week was a difficult week for me emotionally. I was keeping myself together, but I felt very estranged and distant from my wife. We were going into a weekend and I was pretty sure that we were not going to have a good weekend. I just didn't want to bring another piece of information into the mix and make things worse. So, before I left the office, I decided not to tell my wife.

When I got home, however, my wife was much warmer to me than expected. It turned out we had a beautiful weekend. Over the course of the weekend, I thought about telling her, but then I think the selfish part of me kicked in and didn't want to spoil what was turning out to be a good weekend. In the back of my mind was my friend telling me that this has no bearing on our marriage - it was before I met my wife and I haven't communicated with her during our marriage.

So, why do you think that I didn't tell my wife right away? Do the desires/emotions described above accurately reflect what was going on? Did I miss something?

Most importantly for me - does the delay in telling my wife mean I am not capable of being transparent, honest, selfless or able to deal with conflict in a healthy manner? I like to think that I am capable of change, capable of being the person I want to become. But, I think it would be putting blinders on to not explore whether I am even capable of change? Your thoughts would be most appreciated.

pg, even though this involved a relationship that occured before your marriage, the fact is that she contacted you NOW, during your marriage. Your W has a right to know about every aspect of your life. There can be no secrets if you are to ever regain her trust.

Regardless of your feelings, you have an obligation to tell your wife the truth about your life. You don't have to analyze why you did or didn't, just make a committment to not wait in the future. Feelings follow ACTIONS, not the other way around.

I am concerned that you rationalized not telling her, and you should be concerned also. Radical honesty, especially in your case, is essential to the recovery of your marriage.

ML, you are right, my W does have a right to know about every aspect of my life. After reading your response and thinking more about how I handled things, I realized that my first reaction - my gut reaction - was correct. I printed out the email and have every intention of bringing it home with me to show my wife.

For some reason, as the day went on, I began to question my original gut reaction.

My take away from this is that if a situation ever arises like this in the future, I have to follow my initial gut-reaction immediately. Instead of printing out the email to bring home, I should have forwarded it to her immediately. That was my big mistake. Time, in this case, was my enemy and helped me first question and then rationalize not telling her.

A few weeks ago, I tried taking the approach that every time I went out to lunch or left the office to drive home I would send my wife an email in an attempt to be completely transparent with timing. She bristled at this, saying I needed to give her space. To be honest, that entered into my equation when deciding to print out & take home the email rather than forward it to her. In the future, however, I know I have to send her things immediately despite the fact that she has asked me to maintain silence from her during the day.

See, I think that your gut reaction was a RATIONAL response, and I think that should be your source when making choices. Your gut feelings should be screened by your LOGICAL MIND, and the same with feelings. You were able to use your rational mind to see past the silly rationalization that you initially accepted from your friend, even though you didn't at first.

If you are anything like I WAS when I was ruled by my emotions, I would accept such a rationalization because it lined up with my FEELINGS. This process always landed me in trouble, however. The answer for me was to PUT ASIDE my feelings and instead use reason and logic. Feelings are deceptive, but it is much harder to bullsh*t myself when I am using sound reason and logic. Reason and logic can shoot holes through almost every rationalization!

For example, when the email came in, you knew it was the right thing to do to tell your wife. That is because a) she has a right to know as she is in this marriage too, b) it harms your marriage to have secrets, c) it greatly jeopardizes your marriage by not telling her since she could find out on her own.

Those are logical reasons to tell your wife. But then your feelings will say: but, but, but, she might give me a hard time if I tell her! Just think about the ****** I will catch!

LOGIC: whoever said doing the right thing was supposed to be EASY?? DUH! BE A MAN!

So see, if you are anything like I was, your feelings can be your biggest enemy unless you learn to CORRAL them..

Thanks ML - big help.

Your response, combined with Pep's advice earlier has helped me make another realization. When trying to figure out why I didn't come clean about the email on Friday, I realize that I was focusing on "why" rather than figuring out how not to make the same mistake in the future. I was thinking that if I can figure out my emotions/motivations then I can avoid repeat behavior. Your response, however, gave me concrete ways to avoid this type of behavior. Much more helpful in making the right decisions - the first time.

I think this may be a big breakthrough for me. Thanks again.